Mariners Offseason Thread 2014-2015

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Sgt. Largent

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HawkFan72":3h6ey4g3 said:
CurryStopstheRuns":3h6ey4g3 said:
HawkFan72":3h6ey4g3 said:
Steamers and ZIps projects Cruz for 1.5 WAR this year. Sounds good.

You don't follow Mariners ball very closely because that projects 3.6 games better for our DH spot from last season. In case you forgot, or weren't watching, the Mariners missed the playoffs by one game. You do the math.

You think Cruz is the only player we could have gotten to improve the team by one win?

The ONLY player? Of course not.

The only player who'd sign here without giving up Walker or prospects? Yes.

I love the "OMG we could have signed a better player!" argument. It doesn't work that way, free agency and trades are a two way street. If you can get a good player that's willing to come here, you do your best to work it out............and Cruz like most free agents want either more money or more years to come to Seattle (just like Cano did).

So you can't just say we could do better. Doing better requires interest from both sides, and as we know as lifelong M's fans, it's very hard to attract FA's to Seattle.
 

Uncle Si

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HawkFan72":2pxewboo said:
Uncle Si":2pxewboo said:
HawkFan72":2pxewboo said:
Depends on the level of upgrade. Cruz is a bigger upgrade than the other guys available. But if we're just looking for an upgrade of one win to make the playoffs, I can give a list of younger and cheaper options.

I was told to do the math because Cruz is projected to be worth 1.5 wins. Apparently 1.5 wins is worth over $14 million to Curry.


two things... WAR isnt an exact science, but Curry's point is solid.

two, WAR in terms of wins per $ is around 8mill. So, 1.5 would equal roughly 12 mill. Now, Cruz was a 3.9 WAR last season, so again, the money he is being paid is a relative value towards what he can bring.

I get that.

But I said that Cruz is projected for 1.5 WAR and Curry made it sound like a 4 year, $58 million contract was worth it for that because we missed the playoffs by one game last year.

I was just saying that there is a long list of players I can find that would get us 1 WAR that won't cost us 4 years and $58 million if that's all we're looking for.


but there arent. honestly, without trade, find a free agent who is worth +2 WAR.
 

HawkFan72

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Sgt. Largent":10f7uz8f said:
HawkFan72":10f7uz8f said:
CurryStopstheRuns":10f7uz8f said:
HawkFan72":10f7uz8f said:
Steamers and ZIps projects Cruz for 1.5 WAR this year. Sounds good.

You don't follow Mariners ball very closely because that projects 3.6 games better for our DH spot from last season. In case you forgot, or weren't watching, the Mariners missed the playoffs by one game. You do the math.

You think Cruz is the only player we could have gotten to improve the team by one win?

The ONLY player? Of course not.

The only player who'd sign here without giving up Walker or prospects? Yes.

I love the "OMG we could have signed a better player!" argument. It doesn't work that way, free agency and trades are a two way street. If you can get a good player that's willing to come here, you do your best to work it out............and Cruz like most free agents want either more money or more years to come to Seattle (just like Cano did).

So you can't just say we could do better. Doing better requires interest from both sides, and as we know as lifelong M's fans, it's very hard to attract FA's to Seattle.

Star Free Agents, yes. It has been hard. But we're talking about 1 WAR players in this context.

Nick Markakis, Nori Aoki, Colby Rasmus are the type of player we'd be talking about. The M's have shown they can get that quality of player to sign with them.

I'm not saying I want those guys over Cruz, but to justify the Cruz signing of 4 years and $58 million just because he can improve the Mariners by 1.5 WAR this year is pretty ridiculous. There are plenty of cheaper options of that's what you're looking for.

Personally I think that projection for Cruz is low. I think he'll be better than 1.5 WAR. But if I'm just looking for a one game improvement and I'm "doing the math", then Cruz wouldn't be my target.
 

HawkFan72

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Uncle Si":fuhab7sd said:
HawkFan72":fuhab7sd said:
Uncle Si":fuhab7sd said:
HawkFan72":fuhab7sd said:
Depends on the level of upgrade. Cruz is a bigger upgrade than the other guys available. But if we're just looking for an upgrade of one win to make the playoffs, I can give a list of younger and cheaper options.

I was told to do the math because Cruz is projected to be worth 1.5 wins. Apparently 1.5 wins is worth over $14 million to Curry.


two things... WAR isnt an exact science, but Curry's point is solid.

two, WAR in terms of wins per $ is around 8mill. So, 1.5 would equal roughly 12 mill. Now, Cruz was a 3.9 WAR last season, so again, the money he is being paid is a relative value towards what he can bring.

I get that.

But I said that Cruz is projected for 1.5 WAR and Curry made it sound like a 4 year, $58 million contract was worth it for that because we missed the playoffs by one game last year.

I was just saying that there is a long list of players I can find that would get us 1 WAR that won't cost us 4 years and $58 million if that's all we're looking for.


but there arent. honestly, without trade, find a free agent who is worth +2 WAR.

Found a list for you. Look under the 2015 WAR column. Those are their projections. There are a ton of guys. Not 2+ WAR guys, but guys projected to be better than Cruz.

http://www.fangraphs.com/freeagents.aspx?sign=all&pos=all&nteam=all&oteam=all

If you just want power, Cruz is the best bet of the available guys. No question. Hard to find another option who will top his power potential.
 
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dumbrabbit

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Yes, but how has the DH production been past few years? Cruz will definitely help in that department.
 

HawkFan72

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dumbrabbit":1pqzv18k said:
Yes, but how has the DH production been past few years? Cruz will definitely help in that department.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.
 

MizzouHawkGal

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Sgt. Largent":31gui999 said:
HawkFan72":31gui999 said:
I really hope they have a few more moves to make. I was very happy with the Seager signing. The Cruz signing by itself is awful, but in context is might be very good depending how the rest of the offseason goes. At least for this year.

It COULD be awful, but at least let's wait and see?

For now I'm happy that we went after a legitimate bat, as opposed to dumpster diving the Corey Hart's of the league for a power bat.

I also don't think Jack's going to go after any more big signings, maybe a veteran platooning outfielder and a couple back end starters. Could be wrong, but I'd be shocked if there was another big signing.
Rumor says differently. They want Kemp but don't want to give up Walker or Paxson so they are probably going to try for Torii Hunter or Alex Rios. Regardless of whatever happens they definitely want another RH bat.
 

Uncle Si

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HawkFan72":3pm001pd said:
Uncle Si":3pm001pd said:
HawkFan72":3pm001pd said:
Uncle Si":3pm001pd said:
two things... WAR isnt an exact science, but Curry's point is solid.

two, WAR in terms of wins per $ is around 8mill. So, 1.5 would equal roughly 12 mill. Now, Cruz was a 3.9 WAR last season, so again, the money he is being paid is a relative value towards what he can bring.

I get that.

But I said that Cruz is projected for 1.5 WAR and Curry made it sound like a 4 year, $58 million contract was worth it for that because we missed the playoffs by one game last year.

I was just saying that there is a long list of players I can find that would get us 1 WAR that won't cost us 4 years and $58 million if that's all we're looking for.


but there arent. honestly, without trade, find a free agent who is worth +2 WAR.

Found a list for you. Look under the 2015 WAR column. Those are their projections. There are a ton of guys. Not 2+ WAR guys, but guys projected to be better than Cruz.

http://www.fangraphs.com/freeagents.aspx?sign=all&pos=all&nteam=all&oteam=all

If you just want power, Cruz is the best bet of the available guys. No question. Hard to find another option who will top his power potential.


Well power, and fits a need. Next available hitter is a 3B. We just extended ours. the rest are pitchers, of whom I think we make a run at atleast one.
 

hawksfansinceday1

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Overall, I like the Cruz signing. As Si said, Ms gave up nothing outside of one draft pick and got a hitter with power in return. But like 72, I also worry that he's already declining and will just get worse in a cavernous stadium like Safeco. Bottom line though, this team needs power bats and this is well worth the financial gamble.

BTW, I would've much rather had V-Mart but he obviously preferred staying in Motown so it is what it is.
 

HawkFan72

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MizzouHawkGal":lgzn7pu9 said:
Sgt. Largent":lgzn7pu9 said:
HawkFan72":lgzn7pu9 said:
I really hope they have a few more moves to make. I was very happy with the Seager signing. The Cruz signing by itself is awful, but in context is might be very good depending how the rest of the offseason goes. At least for this year.

It COULD be awful, but at least let's wait and see?

For now I'm happy that we went after a legitimate bat, as opposed to dumpster diving the Corey Hart's of the league for a power bat.

I also don't think Jack's going to go after any more big signings, maybe a veteran platooning outfielder and a couple back end starters. Could be wrong, but I'd be shocked if there was another big signing.
Rumor says differently. They want Kemp but don't want to give up Walker or Paxson so they are probably going to try for Torii Hunter or Alex Rios. Regardless of whatever happens they definitely want another RH bat.

Here's the story that confirms what you're saying Mizzou.

Glad the M's aren't done.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/12/mariners-still-seeking-right-fielder.html

I might throw up if they gave Paxton or Walker for Kemp.
 

Sgt. Largent

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HawkFan72":1foeo7dg said:
Here's the story that confirms what you're saying Mizzou.

Glad the M's aren't done.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/12/mariners-still-seeking-right-fielder.html

I might throw up if they gave Paxton or Walker for Kemp.


I would freak out if we gave up Paxton or Walker for Kemp. Kemp's still owed over 100M, that's way too much for an oft injured and barely productive outfielder.

Rios would be awesome, Hunter? Err, still pretty good but he's almost 40 right? Maybe on a one year deal.
 

HawkFan72

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Sgt. Largent":2jkie7yv said:
HawkFan72":2jkie7yv said:
Here's the story that confirms what you're saying Mizzou.

Glad the M's aren't done.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/12/mariners-still-seeking-right-fielder.html

I might throw up if they gave Paxton or Walker for Kemp.


I would freak out if we gave up Paxton or Walker for Kemp. Kemp's still owed over 100M, that's way too much for an oft injured and barely productive outfielder.

Rios would be awesome, Hunter? Err, still pretty good but he's almost 40 right? Maybe on a one year deal.

I could get on board with Hunter or Rios on a short deal. We just need someone who can play a good RF and not embarrass themselves with the bat. Those two could certainly provide that. Either of those 2 make a lot more sense now that Cruz is already on board.
 

Spleenhawk2.0

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Not a big fan of the move - but I get the sense of urgency. Clearly the M's are trying to make a push during the prime "Felix Window".

The reasons I am not a big fan of the move.....

1) Cruz is a horrible defender - thus relegating him to only DH. Provides zero positional flexibility, locking up a large chunk of payroll for only a bat.

2) Cruz has had a really hard time staying healthy over the years - certainly being only a DH could help, but there is a fairly high risk/gamble on the part of the M's. Not a bet I would personally want to make

3) This move would be much more acceptable if he was signed by the Red Sox, Yankees, or Dodgers - teams who seemingly have zero payroll restraints (or at least have a much larger budget than us). We have limited resources, so locking up Cruz for four years will likely have an "opportunity cost" in the future. If was the ONLY player we were able to get over the next 3-4 years, then I guess it makes sense, but if he costs us a better player....in other words - if we could just "buy" a few bats, we could absorb a mistake. Because we have limited resources, we have to weight the opportunity cost.

4) Nelson Cruz has a skill-set that typically does not age well. Power hitters who are often injured tend to decline rapidly after age 33/34. There is no guarantee that he will do as well as last season, nor is there any guarantee he will decline. Again, a fairly risky proposition. Each free agent this offseason had a fairly major risk factor, so if you wanted to sign a free agent, you also must accept the risk. This is just not a risk the M's can afford. I would have preferred that we throw our resources at Tomas, who is absolutely a risk - maybe even bigger. But he has a much greater upside, and would have team control for much longer period of time.

5) The issue with WAR for me is not this season.....1.5 WAR for a team as close as the M's are is acceptable, even at an inflated cost. I am ok with paying him 8 Million per win this season. Not going to be pretty when we are paying him $30 million for his last two years on the disabled list

6) Not a fan of losing the draft pick compensation required for the signing. But I always lean toward building a team internally, from the farm up.

7) The sentiment that "doing something is better than doing nothing" can be a dangerous way to build a team. Bavasi seemed to be really good at making a move to make a move. Not liking this move does not mean there has to a different / better move to replace it. "Who else would we sign?" is a different question. Is it logical to sign the wrong person simply because he is available? or because we can? Roster construction should be a huge consideration, and something I am not certain Z understands real well.

Tim Ruskell loved to overpay for past performance from free agents, during years that decline would inevitably set in. Schneider's success has been his ability to identify under valued talent, and refuse to overpay for past performance with players like Jared Allen, Julius Peppers, or Vincent Jackson, Love how the farm system is being developed - Lets just hope that Z is gambling correctly and Cruz has a few more good years left, and that he keeps hitting through his age 38 year. We can also hope that the M's are not done, and have payroll flexibility in future years that allow for a few mistakes
 

HawkFan72

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Totally agree. You said all the things I am feeling about this signing much better.

How you feel about this deal really does just depend if you are looking at this deal in the vaccuum of this upcoming season or if you are looking at this deal in the context of the whole 4 years.
 

Uncle Si

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HawkFan72":6wvggrdz said:
Totally agree. You said all the things I am feeling about this signing much better.

How you feel about this deal really does just depend if you are looking at this deal in the vaccuum of this upcoming season or if you are looking at this deal in the context of the whole 4 years.


I still dont get some of the concerns on here. First and foremost you cannot compare baseball and football. Also, point by point, much of it is simply hyperbole. Cruz is not a traffic cone in the outfield. Again, he played 500 innings for the first place Orioles last season. Hes not idea, but lets not act like he's running around one legged. Secondly, the insistance that he has been injured ignores the fact he has actually been healthy the last 3 years.

There is no salary cap (in reality) in baseball and we've no idea the resources the M's have or dont have at their disposal. Signing Cruz to 2 years of power hitting and 2 years of Jose Vidro at 15 per is up to them. We dont know the particulars of the deal, nor can we assume Cruz falls apart like a rusty wagon anymore than we can assume 30HRs in 2015.

My only concern in this is the 4th year. but hell, we signed Cano to 10 years.
 

CurryStopstheRuns

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HawkFan72":26v2qrjx said:
CurryStopstheRuns":26v2qrjx said:
HawkFan72":26v2qrjx said:
Steamers and ZIps projects Cruz for 1.5 WAR this year. Sounds good.

You don't follow Mariners ball very closely because that projects 3.6 games better for our DH spot from last season. In case you forgot, or weren't watching, the Mariners missed the playoffs by one game. You do the math.

You think Cruz is the only player we could have gotten to improve the team by one win?

I never said such a thing, but by your statistic he improves the team by 3.6 wins since we calculate the +1.5 that you mentioned for Cruz and take into account that the Mariners received -2.1 grading at that position last seasn. By your own metric, Cruz improves the team by 3.6 wins.

You are kicking your own ass here. I am just helping you to realize it.
 

Spleenhawk2.0

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Uncle Si":2hqa5twp said:
HawkFan72":2hqa5twp said:
Totally agree. You said all the things I am feeling about this signing much better.

How you feel about this deal really does just depend if you are looking at this deal in the vaccuum of this upcoming season or if you are looking at this deal in the context of the whole 4 years.


I still dont get some of the concerns on here. First and foremost you cannot compare baseball and football. Also, point by point, much of it is simply hyperbole. Cruz is not a traffic cone in the outfield. Again, he played 500 innings for the first place Orioles last season. Hes not idea, but lets not act like he's running around one legged. Secondly, the insistance that he has been injured ignores the fact he has actually been healthy the last 3 years.

There is no salary cap (in reality) in baseball and we've no idea the resources the M's have or dont have at their disposal. Signing Cruz to 2 years of power hitting and 2 years of Jose Vidro at 15 per is up to them. We dont know the particulars of the deal, nor can we assume Cruz falls apart like a rusty wagon anymore than we can assume 30HRs in 2015.

My only concern in this is the 4th year. but hell, we signed Cano to 10 years.


A couple of thoughts.....

-My football analogy was a side note - not really that relevant beyond noting that (on a football blog nonetheless) the proper way to build a team in any sport is by identifying under valued talent, not paying for past performance. This would be true in any sport, correct?

-I agree that Cruz has been healthy lately - and actually he had one of his better years defensively in LF last season. But I never said he was a traffic cone. Knowing the outfield at Safeco, I would prefer to field a better defensive outfield. I would be ok with Cruz in LF occasionally next season.

-Though we do not know exactly the payroll limitation of the organization, we do know that the M's have a budget, and have discussed their payroll limitations in the past. Certainly it appears they have raised their budget, but unless we have new ownership, WE KNOW that we have limited financial resources.

-We are not talking about the Cano deal

-You actually agree with the key premise - you are concerned about year 4, I am concerned about years 3 and 4....my concern extends to roster construction and payroll limitations - and ultimately opportunity costs

I would absolutely love to be wrong....been waiting a for 30+ years for a world series championship. Nobody can really "prove" anything at this point. All speculation
 

Uncle Si

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Well the idea of the Cano deal is relevant, as we want to evaluate not just what they got, but what they will be paying for at the end. one thing about years 3 and 4 (that was argued about Cano years 8-10), that may or may not help, is that by that time many of the deals that will be signed will probably make the Cruz signing seem a value (much like Beltre and Sexson's contracts looked like steals in their last years).

At that point we could be paying only 15 million for a declining power hitter putting up 20-25 HRs, but batting .220.
 

Spleenhawk2.0

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CurryStopstheRuns":cgaipuuq said:
HawkFan72":cgaipuuq said:
CurryStopstheRuns":cgaipuuq said:
HawkFan72":cgaipuuq said:
Steamers and ZIps projects Cruz for 1.5 WAR this year. Sounds good.

You don't follow Mariners ball very closely because that projects 3.6 games better for our DH spot from last season. In case you forgot, or weren't watching, the Mariners missed the playoffs by one game. You do the math.

You think Cruz is the only player we could have gotten to improve the team by one win?

I never said such a thing, but by your statistic he improves the team by 3.6 wins since we calculate the +1.5 that you mentioned for Cruz and take into account that the Mariners received -2.1 grading at that position last seasn. By your own metric, Cruz improves the team by 3.6 wins.

You are kicking your own ass here. I am just helping you to realize it.


I am not able to find justification for your -2.1 WAR for DH. Where did you get this figure? Nor do I believe this is the correct application of WAR metrics.
 

Spleenhawk2.0

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Uncle Si":5pfxunjw said:
Well the idea of the Cano deal is relevant, as we want to evaluate not just what they got, but what they will be paying for at the end. one thing about years 3 and 4 (that was argued about Cano years 8-10), that may or may not help, is that by that time many of the deals that will be signed will probably make the Cruz signing seem a value (much like Beltre and Sexson's contracts looked like steals in their last years).

At that point we could be paying only 15 million for a declining power hitter putting up 20-25 HRs, but batting .220.

Oh, so you do agree that the M's have limited resources? You are right, Cano does limit future payroll activity. But he was much younger, and still has 5+ years of prime play left. Certainly you are paying his last four years of contract for his first 6 years of play - but he also has a skill-set that tends to age a little better. Again, all speculation of course.

Sexon's contract was a steal during the last years? He was horrible his last two seasons, eventually being cut during the final year of his contract. Are you saying it looked like a steal when he initially signed the contract?
 
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