Marcus Lattimore was shocked the 49ers drafted him.

[RichNhansom]

The Niners had Alex Smith on cheap contracts the entire time he was there and just paid Kaep last year. They have not been doing it for years. In fact one year after paying your market value your team appears to be collapsing.

The core players we have under contract are critical to bringing in and developing new and young talent. Signing as many core players as you can is critical to future success not the other way around. This is something you will probably see this year with so many of your core players departing. It will make the task of developing your young and new talent that much more difficult because it is much harder to disguise your deficiencies.

Seattle will be closer to where the Niners are now in about 3 years. That is when our core players will start coming into their second contract as well as be pushing 30. That's when it becomes critical to find superstars in the draft and develop that talent.

 

[Sports Hernia]

The Niners had Alex Smith on cheap contracts the entire time he was there and just paid Kaep last year. They have not been doing it for years. In fact one year after paying your market value your team appears to be collapsing.

The core players we have under contract are critical to bringing in and developing new and young talent. Signing as many core players as you can is critical to future success not the other way around. This is something you will probably see this year with so many of your core players departing. It will make the task of developing your young and new talent that much more difficult because it is much harder to disguise your deficiencies.

Seattle will be closer to where the Niners are now in about 3 years. That is when our core players will start coming into their second contract as well as be pushing 30. That's when it becomes critical to find superstars in the draft and develop that talent.

BINGO!

 

[Marvin49]

The Niners had Alex Smith on cheap contracts the entire time he was there and just paid Kaep last year. They have not been doing it for years. In fact one year after paying your market value your team appears to be collapsing.

The core players we have under contract are critical to bringing in and developing new and young talent. Signing as many core players as you can is critical to future success not the other way around. This is something you will probably see this year with so many of your core players departing. It will make the task of developing your young and new talent that much more difficult because it is much harder to disguise your deficiencies.

Seattle will be closer to where the Niners are now in about 3 years. That is when our core players will start coming into their second contract as well as be pushing 30. That's when it becomes critical to find superstars in the draft and develop that talent.

What on earth are you talking about? They resigned a number of their core players to long term contracts several years ago. The players I mentioned...Bowman, Staley, A. Davis, Willis, Kap....some smaller name players like Brock, Kilgore, Miller...all players signed VERY early for smaller contract then they might otherwise be able to obtain. They've been looking to get their guys on long term deals for a long time now. Saying otherwise just means you aren't paying attention.

...and the team is NOT collapsing because of the Kap contract. That ones funny. Usually a tell tale sign of whether you'll be around or not is if the Niners sign you before you reach your final year under contract. Aldon, Boone, and Vernon are all there now and if history is any indicator, they won't be back either. If they want to keep you, you'll never sniff free agency.

Now Aldon is a bit of a special case, but bears watching.

As for your final line about being closer to the Niners in 3 years, THAT WAS MY POINT.

 

[RichNhansom]

Marvin posted:

The 2010 draft was a good one with Mike Iupati, Anthony Davis, and Navorro Bowman. The 2011 draft was a good one with Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver, Daniel Kilgore, and Bruce Miller. 2012 was a total bust.

The 2010 draft was awesome and if McCloughan wasn't involved in building the draft board it would be all you need to see as an example of excellence but there will always be that question until he repeats something similar.

The 2011 draft however is not as sparkling as you want it to be.

You took Aldon Smith instead of JJ Watts and that was with rumors of attitude and discipline issues. He was also widely known as a 1st round talent who only remained on the board because of questionable traits.

Chris Culliver was another example of Baalke taking a risk as Culliver had switched to CB in his senior year and the was injured and missed the last 7 games. He was projected as a 2 or 3 rounder and you got him in the third. The problem is you passed on Richard Sherman in the same draft and that is someone Baalke should have had immense knowledge of if he would have communicated with Harbaugh. Unless you believe Harbaugh black listed Sherman for some reason.

There is also the Culliver gay quote: (keep in mind he is playing for the largest gay community in the country) we don't got no gay people on the team, they gotta get up out of here if they do.... Can't be with that sweet stuff. Nah…can't be…in the locker room man. Nah." He also opined that any gay players should wait 10 years after retiring before coming out.

Oh and he was also arrested for hit and run of a bicyclist and then threatened a witness with brass knuckles before hitting the witness's car while fleeing. The cops even found the brass knuckles in his car.

Kaep the book is still out on. He is still being judged on potential and so far has not reached it and now looks like he could be digressing. The big problem with guys with tons of potential (see Tarvaris Jackson) is if they never reach said potential they are hurting the organization more than helping them and that will continue until he either does reach his potential or your FO finally moves on. It's a tough spot to be in as an organization though. Trying to decide whether to move on or not with the fear he may reach his potential with another team but do you continue putting up with years of mediocrity?

I have read a lot of Niner fans who believe Roman was holding Kaep back. Keeping the playbook too simple on and on but what I have yet to see is the thought that just maybe they were holding him back because he wasn't capable of doing more. This we will get to see first hand this coming season.

Kilgore has proved absolutely nothing except he couldn't beat out Goodwin and now can't stay healthy. Not sure why you listed him as a coupe. So far he is not a shining example of good drafting.

I'll give you Miller but come on. He was a defensive player playing out of position and converted to full back. He's not setting the world on fire.

 

[RichNhansom]

The Niners had Alex Smith on cheap contracts the entire time he was there and just paid Kaep last year. They have not been doing it for years. In fact one year after paying your market value your team appears to be collapsing.

The core players we have under contract are critical to bringing in and developing new and young talent. Signing as many core players as you can is critical to future success not the other way around. This is something you will probably see this year with so many of your core players departing. It will make the task of developing your young and new talent that much more difficult because it is much harder to disguise your deficiencies.

Seattle will be closer to where the Niners are now in about 3 years. That is when our core players will start coming into their second contract as well as be pushing 30. That's when it becomes critical to find superstars in the draft and develop that talent.

What on earth are you talking about? They resigned a number of their core players to long term contracts several years ago. The players I mentioned...Bowman, Staley, A. Davis, Willis, Kap....some smaller name players like Brock, Kilgore, Miller...all players signed VERY early for smaller contract then they might otherwise be able to obtain. They've been looking to get their guys on long term deals for a long time now. Saying otherwise just means you aren't paying attention.

...and the team is NOT collapsing because of the Kap contract. That ones funny. Usually a tell tale sign of whether you'll be around or not is if the Niners sign you before you reach your final year under contract. Aldon, Boone, and Vernon are all there now and if history is any indicator, they won't be back either. If they want to keep you, you'll never sniff free agency.

Now Aldon is a bit of a special case, but bears watching.

As for your final line about being closer to the Niners in 3 years, THAT WAS MY POINT.

How's that go again? Oh yeah, What on earth are you talking about? I never said they didn't resign core players, Said we are about three years or so behind you because our core players are on their first contracts were yours were not.

I agree the team is collapsing because of the age of your core players. Core players you were able to resign because of Alex Smith and Kaep's cheap contracts but now many of those have departed so you don't have as solid a core to support your replacements.

Will Seattle be able to resign our guys to second contracts? I don't know that is a long way down the road but more than likely Wilson won't be playing for half or less of the average QB so it will likely be different. We don't know what talent will be brought in and developed in the mean time though either. We may be in position to let some of them walk if we find cheaper replacements. We just don't know and we don't know what the cap is going to do either. What we do know is for the next few years we are pretty set at core positions that will help develop and hide deficiencies of the non sore players. It's a good problem to have.

 

[hawknation2015]

What on earth are you talking about?

Is it just me or does anyone else picture Marvin in a constant state of clutching his pearls?

 

[Marvin49]

Marvin posted:

The 2010 draft was a good one with Mike Iupati, Anthony Davis, and Navorro Bowman. The 2011 draft was a good one with Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver, Daniel Kilgore, and Bruce Miller. 2012 was a total bust.

The 2010 draft was awesome and if McCloughan wasn't involved in building the draft board it would be all you need to see as an example of excellence but there will always be that question until he repeats something similar.

The 2011 draft however is not as sparkling as you want it to be.

You took Aldon Smith instead of JJ Watts and that was with rumors of attitude and discipline issues. He was also widely known as a 1st round talent who only remained on the board because of questionable traits.

Chris Culliver was another example of Baalke taking a risk as Culliver had switched to CB in his senior year and the was injured and missed the last 7 games. He was projected as a 2 or 3 rounder and you got him in the third. The problem is you passed on Richard Sherman in the same draft and that is someone Baalke should have had immense knowledge of if he would have communicated with Harbaugh. Unless you believe Harbaugh black listed Sherman for some reason.

There is also the Culliver gay quote: (keep in mind he is playing for the largest gay community in the country) we don't got no gay people on the team, they gotta get up out of here if they do.... Can't be with that sweet stuff. Nah…can't be…in the locker room man. Nah." He also opined that any gay players should wait 10 years after retiring before coming out.

Oh and he was also arrested for hit and run of a bicyclist and then threatened a witness with brass knuckles before hitting the witness's car while fleeing. The cops even found the brass knuckles in his car.

Kaep the book is still out on. He is still being judged on potential and so far has not reached it and now looks like he could be digressing. The big problem with guys with tons of potential (see Tarvaris Jackson) is if they never reach said potential they are hurting the organization more than helping them and that will continue until he either does reach his potential or your FO finally moves on. It's a tough spot to be in as an organization though. Trying to decide whether to move on or not with the fear he may reach his potential with another team but do you continue putting up with years of mediocrity?

I have read a lot of Niner fans who believe Roman was holding Kaep back. Keeping the playbook too simple on and on but what I have yet to see is the thought that just maybe they were holding him back because he wasn't capable of doing more. This we will get to see first hand this coming season.

Kilgore has proved absolutely nothing except he couldn't beat out Goodwin and now can't stay healthy. Not sure why you listed him as a coupe. So far he is not a shining example of good drafting.

I'll give you Miller but come on. He was a defensive player playing out of position and converted to full back. He's not setting the world on fire.

Let me see if I have this straight...

...your criticism of Aldon Smith is that he's not JJ Watt? WTF. Not being the best player in the NFL doesn't mean it was a bad pick. He's had his troubles, no doubt, but on the field the guy is a monster. He was NOT the logical choice BTW and most people were pretty surprised by the pick...especially with Gabbert on the board. The dude had 14 sacks as a rookie and 19.5 sacks in his second year through 13 games before he hurt his shoulder.

Your criticism of Culliver is that he's not Richard Sherman? Uh...all 32 teams, including Seattle, passed on him SEVERAL times. Baalke should have had knowledge of him? It might surprise you to find out that in Harbaughs tenure, not a single player was drafted by the 49ers from Stanford. Not. One. If you are gonna use Sherman against Baalke, then you can use it against EVERY GM. Come on now.

Kap....I think it's a lot more complicated than "he was holding Kap back". I think its more he was trying to do things that Kap wasn't good at and also really had no clue in the passing game. The offense wasn't simple, but the passing game was. So much presnap, 3 plays in the huddle, decide at the line stuff that the league eventually caught on to. Then, the receivers ran rudimentary concepts. There is a reason Roman is the RUN GAME coordinator in Buffalo and was the same at Stanford. Seattle and SF ran very similar offenses in 2012. The 49ers inexplicably kept trying to move away from it and become something else. Seattle stuck with it and had great success.

Kilgore was the starter. That's why I mentioned him. He hasn't proved to be good or bad yet and broke his ankle in Denver.

Miller wasn't half bad for a late round/change position player. Of course he's not setting the world on fire, but they needed a fullback and they got a good one.

 

[Sports Hernia]

Marvin posted:

The 2010 draft was a good one with Mike Iupati, Anthony Davis, and Navorro Bowman. The 2011 draft was a good one with Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver, Daniel Kilgore, and Bruce Miller. 2012 was a total bust.

The 2010 draft was awesome and if McCloughan wasn't involved in building the draft board it would be all you need to see as an example of excellence but there will always be that question until he repeats something similar.

The 2011 draft however is not as sparkling as you want it to be.

You took Aldon Smith instead of JJ Watts and that was with rumors of attitude and discipline issues. He was also widely known as a 1st round talent who only remained on the board because of questionable traits.

Chris Culliver was another example of Baalke taking a risk as Culliver had switched to CB in his senior year and the was injured and missed the last 7 games. He was projected as a 2 or 3 rounder and you got him in the third. The problem is you passed on Richard Sherman in the same draft and that is someone Baalke should have had immense knowledge of if he would have communicated with Harbaugh. Unless you believe Harbaugh black listed Sherman for some reason.

There is also the Culliver gay quote: (keep in mind he is playing for the largest gay community in the country) we don't got no gay people on the team, they gotta get up out of here if they do.... Can't be with that sweet stuff. Nah…can't be…in the locker room man. Nah." He also opined that any gay players should wait 10 years after retiring before coming out.

Oh and he was also arrested for hit and run of a bicyclist and then threatened a witness with brass knuckles before hitting the witness's car while fleeing. The cops even found the brass knuckles in his car.

Kaep the book is still out on. He is still being judged on potential and so far has not reached it and now looks like he could be digressing. The big problem with guys with tons of potential (see Tarvaris Jackson) is if they never reach said potential they are hurting the organization more than helping them and that will continue until he either does reach his potential or your FO finally moves on. It's a tough spot to be in as an organization though. Trying to decide whether to move on or not with the fear he may reach his potential with another team but do you continue putting up with years of mediocrity?

I have read a lot of Niner fans who believe Roman was holding Kaep back. Keeping the playbook too simple on and on but what I have yet to see is the thought that just maybe they were holding him back because he wasn't capable of doing more. This we will get to see first hand this coming season.

Kilgore has proved absolutely nothing except he couldn't beat out Goodwin and now can't stay healthy. Not sure why you listed him as a coupe. So far he is not a shining example of good drafting.

I'll give you Miller but come on. He was a defensive player playing out of position and converted to full back. He's not setting the world on fire.

Let me see if I have this straight...

...your criticism of Aldon Smith is that he's not JJ Watt? WTF. Not being the best player in the NFL doesn't mean it was a bad pick. He's had his troubles, no doubt, but on the field the guy is a monster. He was NOT the logical choice BTW and most people were pretty surprised by the pick...especially with Gabbert on the board. The dude had 14 sacks as a rookie and 19.5 sacks in his second year through 13 games before he hurt his shoulder.

Your criticism of Culliver is that he's not Richard Sherman? Uh...all 32 teams, including Seattle, passed on him SEVERAL times. Baalke should have had knowledge of him? It might surprise you to find out that in Harbaughs tenure, not a single player was drafted by the 49ers from Stanford. Not. One. If you are gonna use Sherman against Baalke, then you can use it against EVERY GM. Come on now.

Kap....I think it's a lot more complicated than "he was holding Kap back". I think its more he was trying to do things that Kap wasn't good at and also really had no clue in the passing game. The offense wasn't simple, but the passing game was. So much presnap, 3 plays in the huddle, decide at the line stuff that the league eventually caught on to. Then, the receivers ran rudimentary concepts. There is a reason Roman is the RUN GAME coordinator in Buffalo and was the same at Stanford. Seattle and SF ran very similar offenses in 2012. The 49ers inexplicably kept trying to move away from it and become something else. Seattle stuck with it and had great success.

Kilgore was the starter. That's why I mentioned him. He hasn't proved to be good or bad yet and broke his ankle in Denver.

Miller wasn't half bad for a late round/change position player. Of course he's not setting the world on fire, but they needed a fullback and they got a good one.

I think you are missing Rich's point and building strawmen in the process, the point isn't that those players are not this player or that player, it's that your hero had a chance to draft those superstars and didn't, he missed his opportunity.

 

[Marvin49]

Marvin posted:

The 2010 draft was a good one with Mike Iupati, Anthony Davis, and Navorro Bowman. The 2011 draft was a good one with Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver, Daniel Kilgore, and Bruce Miller. 2012 was a total bust.

The 2010 draft was awesome and if McCloughan wasn't involved in building the draft board it would be all you need to see as an example of excellence but there will always be that question until he repeats something similar.

The 2011 draft however is not as sparkling as you want it to be.

You took Aldon Smith instead of JJ Watts and that was with rumors of attitude and discipline issues. He was also widely known as a 1st round talent who only remained on the board because of questionable traits.

Chris Culliver was another example of Baalke taking a risk as Culliver had switched to CB in his senior year and the was injured and missed the last 7 games. He was projected as a 2 or 3 rounder and you got him in the third. The problem is you passed on Richard Sherman in the same draft and that is someone Baalke should have had immense knowledge of if he would have communicated with Harbaugh. Unless you believe Harbaugh black listed Sherman for some reason.

There is also the Culliver gay quote: (keep in mind he is playing for the largest gay community in the country) we don't got no gay people on the team, they gotta get up out of here if they do.... Can't be with that sweet stuff. Nah…can't be…in the locker room man. Nah." He also opined that any gay players should wait 10 years after retiring before coming out.

Oh and he was also arrested for hit and run of a bicyclist and then threatened a witness with brass knuckles before hitting the witness's car while fleeing. The cops even found the brass knuckles in his car.

Kaep the book is still out on. He is still being judged on potential and so far has not reached it and now looks like he could be digressing. The big problem with guys with tons of potential (see Tarvaris Jackson) is if they never reach said potential they are hurting the organization more than helping them and that will continue until he either does reach his potential or your FO finally moves on. It's a tough spot to be in as an organization though. Trying to decide whether to move on or not with the fear he may reach his potential with another team but do you continue putting up with years of mediocrity?

I have read a lot of Niner fans who believe Roman was holding Kaep back. Keeping the playbook too simple on and on but what I have yet to see is the thought that just maybe they were holding him back because he wasn't capable of doing more. This we will get to see first hand this coming season.

Kilgore has proved absolutely nothing except he couldn't beat out Goodwin and now can't stay healthy. Not sure why you listed him as a coupe. So far he is not a shining example of good drafting.

I'll give you Miller but come on. He was a defensive player playing out of position and converted to full back. He's not setting the world on fire.

Let me see if I have this straight...

...your criticism of Aldon Smith is that he's not JJ Watt? WTF. Not being the best player in the NFL doesn't mean it was a bad pick. He's had his troubles, no doubt, but on the field the guy is a monster. He was NOT the logical choice BTW and most people were pretty surprised by the pick...especially with Gabbert on the board. The dude had 14 sacks as a rookie and 19.5 sacks in his second year through 13 games before he hurt his shoulder.

Your criticism of Culliver is that he's not Richard Sherman? Uh...all 32 teams, including Seattle, passed on him SEVERAL times. Baalke should have had knowledge of him? It might surprise you to find out that in Harbaughs tenure, not a single player was drafted by the 49ers from Stanford. Not. One. If you are gonna use Sherman against Baalke, then you can use it against EVERY GM. Come on now.

Kap....I think it's a lot more complicated than "he was holding Kap back". I think its more he was trying to do things that Kap wasn't good at and also really had no clue in the passing game. The offense wasn't simple, but the passing game was. So much presnap, 3 plays in the huddle, decide at the line stuff that the league eventually caught on to. Then, the receivers ran rudimentary concepts. There is a reason Roman is the RUN GAME coordinator in Buffalo and was the same at Stanford. Seattle and SF ran very similar offenses in 2012. The 49ers inexplicably kept trying to move away from it and become something else. Seattle stuck with it and had great success.

Kilgore was the starter. That's why I mentioned him. He hasn't proved to be good or bad yet and broke his ankle in Denver.

Miller wasn't half bad for a late round/change position player. Of course he's not setting the world on fire, but they needed a fullback and they got a good one.

I think you are missing Rich's point and building strawmen in the process, the point isn't that those players are not this player or that player, it's that your hero had a chance to draft those superstars and didn't, he missed his opportunity.

So what? He selected very good players.

What...if a GM doesn't select a guy who ends up being the best player in the draft but still gets a very, very good one he's somehow a failure? That's twisted logic.

Does that mean that every team who DIDN'T select Watt in the top 10 is a failure? I think Carolina, Denver, Cincinnati, Arizona, Atlanta, SF, and Dallas are all pretty happy with their picks. If you wanna look at teams kicking themselves, just look at Tenn and Jacksonville.

Sherman? Come on man. That's a 5th round pick. NOBODY thought he was gonna be the guy he is...including Seattle. You can't hold every low round steal against every other GM. There are just too many. Terrell Davis. Tom Brady. It happens. Sometimes you take a guy and you get really lucky. That's what happened in Seattle.

And before you say it wasn't luck, yes, they liked Sherman. They liked him well enough to risk a draft pick on him...but if they had any idea he'd end up being the player he is now there is no way in hell they'd risk waiting till the 5th round.

Baalke took some very good, possibly great players in that draft in 2011. To look back on it and say he didn't get every great player so it was a bad draft is ludicrous to me.