Looking ahead, which asst. coaches stay or go in 2016?

[kearly]

This isn't a bash thread, so please try not to turn it into one. This is about what you think is actually going to happen to the assistant coaching staff this offseason. Will Pete Carroll shrug off 2015 or will he look to go a new direction in a few spots? And if so, why or why not?

Here are my takes:


Tom Cable.


I don't blame Tom Cable for the 2015 OL. Or at least, I don't blame him as much as the decision makers above him. I will also confess to being an admirer of Cable's for a long time, and it was only a couple years ago that I thought he was one of the most valuable assistant coaches in the league.

But looking beyond this season, if we look at Cable's history in Seattle going back to 2011, every success story he's had on the OL is either a player who was drafted/developed elsewhere or who already had a year or two of development on the Seahawks before Cable arrived. The biggest success story for a lineman Cable drafted in Seattle is JR Sweezy, a one dimensional player that has regressed the past couple seasons. James Carpenter was okay, but immediately became a much better player when he left for the Jets.

Cable's history with veterans is a lot better, and if Seattle commits to spending some cash on veteran OL next offseason, then Cable's lines are far less likely to remain the worst in the league.

I still consider Cable to be fairly good at what he does, however I am starting to sense that both Cable and Bevell are poor fits for Russell Wilson. How many times have we seen Wilson not see receivers open deep because he had to pull the ball down and run, or worse yet, because he heard footsteps that weren't even there? Having abysmal protection can hurt a QB even when protection is granted, because after 2.5 seconds the alarm clock is going off in his head since he's so used to getting pressured in 3 seconds or less.

I don't think Wilson is exactly like Drew Brees, but there is a reason why the Saints invested so heavily in pass protection. For a QB that makes a lot of reads, time to throw is vital.

Seattle lost the SB, but in that game Wilson showed what he could do when the weak Patriots pass rush gave him 5+ seconds to throw on almost every play- Wilson completed deep ball after deep ball after deep ball against what was then an elite secondary. Wilson finished the game with an 11.8 YPA.

While I do like Cable, I think his OL scheme is more suited for the running game and in particular it's designed for decisive RBs with good balance like Lynch. Even during the best years of Seattle's OL with Cable, protection was average at best. I could be wrong but I don't recall Cable having much of a track record with pass pro in Oakland or Atlanta either.

Watching this season, I'm starting to think the real reason for Wilson's decline is that the coaching staff is putting him in position to fail too often. Dialing up deep balls on simple routes with no time to throw and asking the QB to never throw interceptions, sounds easy right?

I don't know if Pete keeps Cable or not. My guess is that he will, but should he? I like Cable but I struggle with this question for the reasons stated above. Most of Cable's value to the franchise has been tied to making Marshawn Lynch into a possible HoFer. But with Lynch probably moving on in not too long, shouldn't the shift of emphasis be put on the next best player on the offense, Russell Wilson? Is Cable the right guy for that new identity?

If Pete did decide to move on from Cable, 2016 would be good timing. The two most senior members of the OL, Sweezy and Okung, are UFA, and even if Cable does stay, you can pretty much expect 1-3 members of the OL to be overturned with new bodies. There's going to be a rebuild on the OL next year either way. Some pieces will stay, but many will change.


Darrell Bevell.


A lot has been said about this guy. I think he suited a rookie Wilson and a monster Lynch pretty well. But now the more I learn from the game breakdowns the more it appears that Bevell is hindering the growth of the offense and Wilson in particular. There's also a competency issue with Bevell but that to me matters less than his fit with Russell in 2015 and beyond.

It's possible that Bevell is being harmed by Wilson as much as Wilson is being harmed by Bevell. Maybe Bevell is being forced to crimp his style too much to accommodate a sandlot QB. Maybe Bevell is suffering from the OL problems as well. If Bevell were the OC of the Cardinals, with a traditional offense and personnel that is all around competent, he would shine more as an OC. Maybe so.

But whereas I see Cable as a semi-competent OL coach who fit Seattle's past more than Seattle's future, I see precious little evidence that Bevell is a competent OC. Again, this could be obfuscated by the hand he was dealt or his lack of fit with a veteran Russell Wilson. All I know is, Russell was a pretty good RZ QB as a rookie. Then Seattle added speedsters like Harvin, C-Mike, Richardson, (and now Lockett), with high picks, and the result has been ever declining RZ effectiveness.

It was a problem before 2015, so Seattle traded for Graham, a guy that was arguably the best pure RZ pass catcher in the game. Nobody thought for a second that Graham would have 1300 yards here, but we thought he could realistically get 10+ TDs and boost the RZ back to 2012 levels. Instead, Wilson's RZ numbers moved rapidly in the opposite direction.

A couple months ago I just figured that Bevell was on tenure, that he would never be hired away and never fired. But with the huge sacrifice made to improve the RZ and the opposite occurring, what are Pete's options going forward? Trade big for Dez Bryant and hope for a different result? Trade Wilson and start over at QB? Or try a new OC? Which of these options is the easiest?


Kris Richard.


Could Richard be one and done as DC? Probably not. I think Pete will give Richard more time to learn. That said, what if a 'big name' DC from the NFL / College, or an old ex, or a familiar USC face becomes available? I don't want Gus Bradley back here, but if he gets fired by Jacksonville I have to imagine there will at least be a discussion in the VMAC the next day.

It's weird. I loved what Richard did as a DB coach. I love his vocal skills, which are on a Ken Norton level. And as a DC, I love how Richard blitzes and how he's gotten the front seven to perform. All that's missing is corner play, which had been Richard's specialty before this season. But instead, Corner play has sunk this team. With Richard Sherman as one of the starting corners. It just seems so unfathomable. And worse yet, a lot of these problems have been tied to communication and coaching issues.

So while I do like Richard and think he probably stays, I'll still be keeping an eye on the DC spot this offseason, depending on who Pete likes and becomes available.



There are still some games left this season and things can change, but if Seattle finishes 7-9 or 8-8 while fielding a healthy team, then I think Pete will have some interesting decisions to make going forward. Pete is a bold guy who makes bold moves and in such a scenario just about anything could be on the table, IMO.

 

[iigakusei]

I think our offense will show slight signs of improvement towards the end of the year - enough for both Cable and Bevell to stay. The one thing I am slightly worried about is that they let Bevell go and Cable takes complete control of the offense. I personally think that could be even worse than what we are seeing now. I think we need to get a creative mind on offense who is better at game planning. Sometimes it seems on offense we really don't ever have a clue what we want to do in the first half of games, and it is more a feeling out process. I think next year is key in Wilson's development and he will either take a big step forward or back. I would like to see a step forward with a new OC - but don't see it happening unless the team really tanks down the stretch.

 

[seahawks08]

I would have loved Adam Gase as a great OC who plays to QB strengths. He made Tim Tebow look great, but he will be a HC sought after for sure.

 

[Laloosh]

Regarding your comments on Bevell. I think he and Russ have both made it difficult to decide who is more at fault depending on the game.

This season it seems like Russ falls flat when we need him most. He's been baited into rushing up the middle only to be sacked at or behind the LOS. He has given up on pockets early (though I don't really blame the guy given the pounding he takes) and he's missed some fairly easy throws that he used to hit.

Bevell's play calling veers from idiotic to respectable from game to game (and even in the games themselves). Just feels like he's calling plays like he's got an offensive line that can block. I don't know if he and Cable are butting heads and he's highlighting the fact that Cable can't get his guys to block or if he's just too stupid to go to a quick passing game until they learn to block or find better linemen. Some of that will require some mistakes on Wilson's part because it's a new offensive style and new plays but I'd prefer that over watching 6-8 sacks per game and the occasional 40 yard chunk play.

 

[Bwarren]

I would like to see us be more up tempo offensively. Not in Bevell or Cables vocabulary.

 

[DavidSeven]

I think each of the coaches has acknowledged that the OL isn't what they hoped it would be. But I think they are blaming that more on the personnel than the coaching or scheme. That being the case, I don't expect wholesale changes because they will want to see what this staff can do with a semi-competent and more experienced OL.

If there is a change at all, I expect it to be more subtle. Perhaps to bring in new blood in a "Special Assistant" capacity for either the defense or offense or someone like Sarkisian as a QB coach (Carl Smith is 67). Maybe someone to work under Cable on the OL and give us a new set of eyes there.

 

[Hawks46]

It's an interesting discussion. Is it cause, or effect ?

I think we've shied away from using too much draft capital on OL prospects, knowing that Cable has had success with DL conversions and late round/UDFA picks before. I also think the FO eschewed going OL heavy, knowing that if our protection was average to below average, that Wilson could make up for it with his agility and elusiveness. Look at last year and the year before. Wilson had time to throw and at times looked pretty good. When guys did break free, he makes them look bad and makes a play. Last year was a regression and this year is just abysmal.

So, is it Cable's fault, or the FO for getting a bit cute (or cheap) and it not working out ?

Bevell. Same thing could be said. I don't like our situational play calling at all. We also don't work well with our personnel's strengths, but is that game planning or execution ? I don't have information enough to say. I see a lot of poor execution from the QB position, but once again, there is cause and effect there. It's not Bevell's fault that Wilson has missed open guys. It's not Bevell's fault that the OL (which I highly doubt he's very involved with) is the worst in the league this year. It IS Bevell's fault that we suck in the RZ, yet we never once saw Graham on one side and Matthews on the other. I mean, that's why they were both here, yet it was what...unfair to have them on the field at the same time ?

Richard. I think he gets another year, but we should look at a new secondary coach.

 

[HawkGA]

I'll keep it pretty simple, there won't be any changes to coaching barring somebody voluntarily leaving for another job, which I only see happening with lower level assistants. Sad but true. I don't see Richard being a one and done. I think he gets more time to grow into the position.

But David's post raises an interesting question that I haven't really thought of. Do the Seahawks have a QB coach? With Bevell and Cable essentially sharing OC duties (whatever that actually means!), I don't really see them bringing on another specialized offensive assistant, but I do think it would be something worth considering.

Part of me trembles at the thought of Wilson having to learn a new system under a new coordinator, but he did go to Wisconsin for one year and led them to the Rose Bowl, so I think he would be fine.

 

[JSeahawks]

I'll keep it pretty simple, there won't be any changes to coaching barring somebody voluntarily leaving for another job, which I only see happening with lower level assistants. Sad but true. I don't see Richard being a one and done. I think he gets more time to grow into the position.

But David's post raises an interesting question that I haven't really thought of. Do the Seahawks have a QB coach? With Bevell and Cable essentially sharing OC duties (whatever that actually means!), I don't really see them bringing on another specialized offensive assistant, but I do think it would be something worth considering.

QB coach is Carl Smith. He was one of CArroll's initial hires I believe.

 

[Sports Hernia]

Cable: I think his experiment with taking D-line and converting them to O-line has failed.
I like the guy but his line is gawd awful, and I'm aware that very little dollars are spent here, even with that this line needs to be better. Gone.

Bevell: Everyone is aware of my feelings on the guy. GONE!

Richard: Rookie DC, some good, a lot of bad, needs to get his house in order.
Might need a kick in the pants but he gets another year to prove himself. Stays.

 

[seahawks08]

I would like to see us be more up tempo offensively. Not in Bevell or Cables vocabulary.

Up tempo gives a perception of throwing defenses off, but they don't go often specially when you have new team members adjusting. You want to take your time to make sure everyone understands the play and are blocking the right way, and it can lead to more confusion in the long run. It could be used during the 2 minute drills, but otherwise the team is going to struggle making those plays consistently.

 

[Anthony!]

Cable: I think his experiment with taking D-line and converting them to O-line has failed.
I like the guy but his line is gawd awful, and I'm aware that very little dollars are spent here, even with that this line needs to be better. Gone.

Bevell: Everyone is aware of my feelings on the guy. GONE!

Richard: Rookie DC, some good, a lot of bad, needs to get his house in order.
Might need a kick in the pants but he gets another year to prove himself. Stays.

The reality that 2 of the 2 coaches went on media and through Wilson under the tires and PC said nothing says they will be here, but Wilson maybe not. Its interesting Bevell and Cable got so much credit for our success as did Wilson, but now that things are not going well they through him under the bus, Wilson he take ownership, Must be tough to have coaches that are not willing to accept responsibility and a HC that lets them. Interesting our DC did not through anyone under the bus though. even if Wilson had been playing lights out ad we won, all that would mean is we would be ignoring 2 huge problems again Oline and Bevell. I kind of feel like it went like this

Bevell: Hey Cable ahh we suck, but we cannot say that, Wilson and Lynch are not able to hide the fact we suck as coaches. Lets call them out,

Cable: yeah lets do that but not lynch he might just retire. Lets blame it all on Wilson he just got signed he cant retire yet.

Bevell: yeah lets do that, since he cannot hide our terrible coaching this year lets blame him.

 

[bjornanderson21]

Cable: finally gets canned.

He can't evaluate OL talent. His DL conversions are a waste. He doesn't seem to make players better than they were before. Only good OL we had were here before cable (okung, unger). I have never ever ever seen a position coach get so much praise while being so damn godawful.

Cable might be among the worst OL coaches in the NFL and people on here have treated him like a HOF coach.


Bevell: leaves on his own.

Unfortunately I think Pete loves Bevell and never wants to he without him, but the constant criticism and the problems this year will cause him to take a college HC gig. Not a major college, but still a college.

Our offense just isn't cohesive. We have an OL coach not helping the team, and focusing 100% on run blocking, while we have an OC that isn't adjusting to our bad OL and our unique QB, and we have a QB who is struggling and is probably shellshocked.

New OC consults with Pete and John to bring in the right OL coach for their offense. They then go out and try to bring in some new linemen that fit the mold.


Richard: stays.

If Pete has been afraid to move on from Cable and Bevell, just imagine how much he would hate replacing both coordinators. Im not so sure we can blame Richard for Sherman's decline, and I know it's not his fault Kam held out. It's Pete's defense anyway so I don't see him finding a better DC who will accept being the Jr DC.

 

[Missing_Clink]

I think "tenure" is the appropriate concept here. For whatever reason, be it, blind loyalty, arrogance, stupidity or something else, PC seems utterly devoted to Cabes and Bevs, and there is no limit for how badly their units can perform which would cost them their jobs. They are immune. PC will not do what needs to be done with these bad coaches. I can't believe that Paul Allen wouldn't step in at some point, but maybe his only contractual option is to fire PC.

 

[HawkGA]

Cable: I think his experiment with taking D-line and converting them to O-line has failed.
I like the guy but his line is gawd awful, and I'm aware that very little dollars are spent here, even with that this line needs to be better. Gone.

Here's the thing that kills me about the Dline conversion projects. These take time. Naturally they do, wouldn't expect them not to. But in a world where we want to go cheap, we are clearly not planning on having Oline on second contracts. So if you have a rookie for 3 or 4 years max, why on Earth would you waste most of that time on a development project? Just draft mid to late around OFFENSIVE LINEMEN and accept whatever quality they are but just work with it, knowing they at least know how to play the position. Get some continuity and DECENT play for 3 or 4 years as opposed to crap play for a year or two and then MAYBE decent play for a year or two.

 

[mrt144]

A couple months ago I just figured that Bevell was on tenure, that he would never be hired away and never fired. But with the huge sacrifice made to improve the RZ and the opposite occurring, what are Pete's options going forward? Trade big for Dez Bryant and hope for a different result? Trade Wilson and start over at QB? Or try a new OC? Which of these options is the easiest?

This is the drum I've been banging on for at least 2 weeks now - when the cards are down on the table, is it really easier to replace a Superbowl winning QB or a Superbowl winning OC. I err on the side of OC simply because there are numerous examples (Cam Cameron being fired mid season for Jim Caldwell being the most prescient in recent memory) of that change at that position that have yielded better results and whether its purely Xs and Os or it's a fresh perspective on utilization, or simply relieving the psyche of the players, i don't know. I'm struggling to find examples where the OC stayed constant and the QBs changed yet the results were better - especially after a QB tenure of 3-4 years.

The other factor that ties into this is I would hate to be the team that takes the risk on letting RW play somewhere else and seeing that success under a new OC. This is definitely a cognitive bias at play here and I'll cop to it - yes, I would hate to not capture the performance of Wilson 3-4 years from now when he's approaching the peak of combining mental and physical aspects of the game. It would be like Golden Tate times a million.

As an example purely relegated to the SB as the pinnacle of success - how many multiple Superbowl starters have been on two different teams? 3! Warner, Pey Pey and Craig Morton. Everyone else, single team almost entire career and certainly only during their runs to the SB - literal franchise QBs. Until we cross the point of parting ways with either him or Bevell we'll never know his ceiling for certain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_q ... owl_starts

 

[mrt144]

Cable: I think his experiment with taking D-line and converting them to O-line has failed.
I like the guy but his line is gawd awful, and I'm aware that very little dollars are spent here, even with that this line needs to be better. Gone.

Here's the thing that kills me about the Dline conversion projects. These take time. Naturally they do, wouldn't expect them not to. But in a world where we want to go cheap, we are clearly not planning on having Oline on second contracts. So if you have a rookie for 3 or 4 years max, why on Earth would you waste most of that time on a development project? Just draft mid to late around OFFENSIVE LINEMEN and accept whatever quality they are but just work with it, knowing they at least know how to play the position. Get some continuity and DECENT play for 3 or 4 years as opposed to crap play for a year or two and then MAYBE decent play for a year or two.

Thank you thank you thank you. I remember opining this in one of the threads here where the way we go about rostering our OL can't realistically be called investment. Every OL that has been through here has either been too good to resign in a competitive market relative to their talents like Carp or simply not good enough to stick with the team (Too many to name). If this is the outlook of how to roster OL why are we wasting time trying to get them to the low bar of subjectively good for our offense if we aren't willing to pay and retain them once they get to that point?

Everything about it reeks of mis valuations or a non cogent strategy or competing strategies within the org.

 

[scutterhawk]

It sounds like Russell Wilson is taking the blame for piss-poor Offensive Coaching decisions.
Some fans here are singling his regressions out as being his own fault, got big money, dating Ciera, blah blah, blah.
Cable has always had a 'Run First' mindset, and Wilson's dual threat abilities to sling the ball, or take off running, was the perfect Tom Cable Quarterback.
Cable benefitted big time by having the likes of RW & ML as his One Two punchers.
Coaching up converted Defensive players and expecting them to become an instant success is UNREALISTIC, and that's the reason for most of the problems on Offense AND a big part of the Defense.
I believe that Cable needs to expand on his basic concept....But not so sure he can.

Bevel has been channeled into dumbing down some of his plays because of the inept Offensive Line play, but that alone doesn't exonerate him from not finding ways to expand his playbook.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

I suspect all three remain.

With major, aggressive changes to the O-line.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Though I think Bevell deserves to be jettisoned purely for his shockingly bad third-down play designs, he'll probably get the boot for the same reason that Jeremy Bates did - ignoring the Beast.

Cable I'm pretty meh on. Richards I like for his blitzing instincts. Give him some more time.