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rjdriver

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Welcome back @Blazenhawks

I can’t help but think how high the ceiling would be if we had a slightly above average right guard. I’m hoping JS works some magic this coming FA or draft to secure up that position.
 

Nv_Hawks

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Good post:
I don’t trust RG 1,000%
I wish the punt return teams would cover a little better lately.
I don’t trust the time management right now.
 

keasley45

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I completely trust Macdonald and the defense.

I trust Darnold and the skill position guys more than most. Darnold needs to prove people wrong for sure but I don't think he's the liability people think he is.

I don't trust the line at all yet. Not saying they can't play really well and hopefully sundell to right guard rights the ship but I'm still worried about it.

I used to be into archery when I was younger. I was pretty good and competed in tournaments on a regular basis. There was a guy at the range that was famous for lighting up the practice range, hitting robin-hoods, consistently 10 type shooter. When we are all just hanging out and shooting on non-tourney days, he was hands down one of the top 2 or 3 guys in the club. But come tournament time, he struggled to ever finish top 3 because he would always send shots all over the place and on occasion actually miss the target all-together because he brain farted on the distance. He just could not put it together in big moments. He upgraded every possible element on the bow - sights, string, silencer, rest, etc and bought one new bow after another. None of it helped. It didn't matter how good the equipment was that he had because the problem was in his own head.

In years past conversations around here involving the o line went so far as to recommend blowing the whole thing up and getting all new players. Now, out of 5 o lineman, we have 1 who's play is marginal to sometimes bad. 4/5 guys playing at a relatively high level and two, maybe 3 playing as good as any others at their position in the league and still the O line is the issue?

The line has given him overall some of the best protection in the league. Quarterbacks who lead the league in explosive plays and time to throw in the pocket don't have an o-line problem. Sam 100% has an issue he needs to overcome and it remains to be seen whether he can do it or not. Unfortunate thing is, unlike years past when despite the bumps, the QB was one of the bright spots on a poor overall team, we have the pieces in the run game defense and good enough blocking to get it done.

To date, JS's powerplay in bringing Sam over has been good enough to win games against defenses that haven't been skilled enough to challenge our pass attack. Yet everytime we have faced a unit that can bring pressure or throw off Sam's timing, we look very average, if not worse than average.

Batted balls are more on the QB than the o line because it's the QBs responsibility to see the line and hit the lanes between players to make plays.

When the QB doesn't step up into the pocket or feel pressure behind him and just stands there waiting for the route to come open, that's not on the O line. Daniel Jeremiah talked specifically about this this week on Brock and Salk.

Sam needs to take the next step. Brandon Mebane also interestingly gave an interview where he said that from a DLine man's perspective, there are things that Sam does presnap that are a 'tell' as to whether we are going to pass and that it's a pretty consistent things that he is doing. What it is? I don't know. But it wouldn't at all surprise me given how his performance overall has dipped since the Rams game.

Sam has a complete team around him and 4/5ths of a dominant o line. He has more than probably 30 other QBs in the league have around them and light years more than any QB named Wilson or Smith had here over the last 10 years. There is enough here and the window is wide open. I am concerned that fact alone is enough to F with the dude's mind, knowing that the lynch pin is him.

Pray to God this season doesn't get flushed the way 2020 did. Given the overall team we have today, not making a real push would hurt far more now than it did that year.
 

bileever

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The interior of the offensive line has been terrible, and that includes Zabel and Olu (and Sundel). The question is: do we trust Kubiak, Benton and Macdonald to fix it in time?
 

glenwo2

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Darnold needs to get laid or go on a Ayahuasca retreat, or both. He's too much in his head.
I think Darnold gets enough tail from his Fiancee. Just saying...

Sam darnold katie hoofnagle engagement 070825 1 96d96643c481429f8405c4679e5e6b87


His struggles have more to do with OL Protections and opposing Defenses (In particular the Rams) confusing him.

This is where Kubiak steps in and develops a gameplan to HELP HIM.

I fully expect to see more Dump-offs, Screens, Hot-reads, etc. to give Sam a safety-valve to throw to if he doesn't see anything out there he likes.
 

bileever

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What makes you say Zabel has been bad?
I've seen some good stuff from Zabel, but I've also seen the entire middle of the line collapse against the Texans, Rams and the Vikings. And even though I've seen some tape on him getting some good blocks on run plays, lately I haven't seen much push from his side on interior running plays.
 
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Blazenhawks

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I've seen some good stuff from Zabel, but I've also seen the entire middle of the line collapse against the Texans, Rams and the Vikings. And even though I've seen some tape on him getting some good blocks on run plays, lately I haven't seen much push from his side on interior running plays.
I think this is an overreaction. First, he’s a rookie, and he was playing very well at the start of the season. Second, he’s dealing with an injury, which makes him more vulnerable and has led to an increase in technical penalties. Third, not having Sundell has been a challenge, especially since he’s so accustomed to playing alongside him, dating back to college.


The offensive line isn’t the biggest issue here. The bigger concern is Darnold not getting the ball out quickly enough—possibly due to play calling—and not staying composed against the blitz.
 
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I think this is an overreaction. First, he’s a rookie, and he was playing very well at the start of the season. Second, he’s dealing with an injury, which makes him more vulnerable and has led to an increase in technical penalties. Third, not having Sundell has been a challenge, especially since he’s so accustomed to playing alongside him, dating back to college.


The offensive line isn’t the biggest issue here. The bigger concern is Darnold not getting the ball out quickly enough—possibly due to play calling—and not staying composed against the blitz.
200
 

bileever

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I think this is an overreaction. First, he’s a rookie, and he was playing very well at the start of the season. Second, he’s dealing with an injury, which makes him more vulnerable and has led to an increase in technical penalties. Third, not having Sundell has been a challenge, especially since he’s so accustomed to playing alongside him, dating back to college.


The offensive line isn’t the biggest issue here. The bigger concern is Darnold not getting the ball out quickly enough—possibly due to play calling—and not staying composed against the blitz.
I mainly agree with you. I'm not worried about Zabel, he's a rookie and he will get even better. I'm just saying that the interior of the line doesn't look good right now, and it's up to Kubiak and Benton to fix whatever is going on with it. Where I disagree with you is that I think the problem is more the offensive line, not Darnold. He literally had no time to throw against the Vikings.
 
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Blazenhawks

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I mainly agree with you. I'm not worried about Zabel, he's a rookie and he will get even better. I'm just saying that the interior of the line doesn't look good right now, and it's up to Kubiak and Benton to fix whatever is going on with it. Where I disagree with you is that I think the problem is more the offensive line, not Darnold. He literally had no time to throw against the Vikings.
I think we both can be right and wrong at the same time. We should just be blaming Kubiak on calling the wrong plays at the wrong time.
 

hox

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The line has given him overall some of the best protection in the league. Quarterbacks who lead the league in explosive plays and time to throw in the pocket don't have an o-line problem.
I don't know about all that. While the OL performance has been better than years past, you can't apply general OL performance over the course of a season to specific games against good Ds where the protection is horrible.

The average temperature this past November was 65 degrees, but today it snowed. Therefore, the temperature today is 65.

Nope. It's on a game-by-game basis.

The Vikings pressured Darnold on just under 4 out of every 10 drop backs and sacked him 4 times, which is a very high-pressure, high-sack day for a single game.

And it only takes one weakness to exploit the entire line. Imagine a big stone wall with a giant hole in it. This is our line. The line is only as strong as its weakness link. Especially when the pressure is instant - the play is blown up immediately like we saw multiple times in that first half.

Regarding batted / tipped passes, per MM this is a function of protections and playcalling. Kubiak calls a quick slant or quick out. It's a timing play. It's not 2-3 read type of play. The pass is usually completed if the defender isn't able to push the OL back and put their hands up at the line of scrimmage.

1764782342020
 

Ostatehawk

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What are you talking about? Are you being serious?

Zabel has been a huge upgrade for us. It’s like I’m in the Twilight Zone reading this
I was quoting someone else who lumped Zabel in with Sundel and Olu as being "Terrible". See below. While Olu and Sundel are not world beaters - they have been decent and Zabel has been very good.


bileever said:
The interior of the offensive line has been terrible, and that includes Zabel and Olu (and Sundel). The question is: do we trust Kubiak, Benton and Macdonald to fix it in time?
 

keasley45

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I don't know about all that. While the OL performance has been better than years past, you can't apply general OL performance over the course of a season to specific games against good Ds where the protection is horrible.

The average temperature this past November was 65 degrees, but today it snowed. Therefore, the temperature today is 65.

Nope. It's on a game-by-game basis.

The Vikings pressured Darnold on just under 4 out of every 10 drop backs and sacked him 4 times, which is a very high-pressure, high-sack day for a single game.

And it only takes one weakness to exploit the entire line. Imagine a big stone wall with a giant hole in it. This is our line. The line is only as strong as its weakness link. Especially when the pressure is instant - the play is blown up immediately like we saw multiple times in that first half.

Regarding batted / tipped passes, per MM this is a function of protections and playcalling. Kubiak calls a quick slant or quick out. It's a timing play. It's not 2-3 read type of play. The pass is usually completed if the defender isn't able to push the OL back and put their hands up at the line of scrimmage.

View attachment 76216

Answer me this. When has Sam Darnold NOT been the guy to wilt when things get hot or challenging?

I could understand the defense of the guy if he actually showed an ability to 'turn on' and not look like a counterfeit version of himself when things are going really well. But there are few, if any examples of him doing that.

Maybe he is different now and it's just been a perfect storm or his teammates failing that are making him look like he didat his worst before he got here.

There are things you can do against pressure, like scramble or get the ball out faster.

The issue is that it's not even him getting sacked that's contributing to the bad plays. See the Rams game. There are just terrible decisions being made that shouldn't be when things simply get hot.

We will see what happens this weekend. I sincerely hope the ATL D doesn't show up, but if they do, Sam could potentially look just as bad against them as he did against the Rams and Vikes. They Blitz at a high rate and have a solid front 7.

At some point, Sam has to be the reason we win games. He can't be the guy we are constantly protecting from himself when things get hard. Every game will be hard pretty soon and every defense we see will do what the Vikes and Rams have tried. He has shown flashes of being able to create smartly on his own.

The problem though with someone with issues with self doubt is that at some point when they begin to lose grip of a second chance and show weakness and a proposensity to be the person they are trying to move on from, the instances of failure stack up, it can become a self defeating thing.

Sam 'being Sam' is now the narrative that everyone in the media is trumpeting. The fact that the Vikes D Coordinator flat came out and basically said to Sam 'we are coming' should say a lot about what the consensus feeling is about who he is as a QB. Every good D will come at him now until he shows he can beat it.

We can't expect the O Line to just keep him safe against an onslaught every single play.

Sam has to make a play. Sam has to win us a game when everyone knows it's in his hands to do so.
 

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