Journalistic integrity

[LTH]

I want to point out some issues with Joe Fann. Here is a guy who got fired from the 49ers for writing negative stuff and now he is polluting our media.

It's perfectly reasonable for fans to criticize Pete Carroll and analyze the Seattle Seahawks. The problem is when you have a sports writer that presents opinion and assumption as fact that is irresponsible because people read this stuff and take it as fact when its NOT.

Just as an example of what I'm talking about

joe wrote and I'm paraphrasing, Carroll is at the low point in his career .Then Joe was talking about how Carroll was a micromanager because of the 4-1 call he questioned Schotty on.
So if you're reading this as a fan, you walk away thinking Carroll is a Micromanager that is at the low point in his career because that is being presented as FACT. all of that MAY or May not be true... but there are no sources toi back it up...


Did Carroll ever talk about the reasons schotty was fired No he did not
Did schotty ever give an interview talking about why he was fired No he did not.
Was Fann sitting in the meetings when it was discussed what they were going to do if they had a 4-1 play call? No he was not..
Was Fann involved in the conversation about what was happening with the 4-1 call with Schotty and Carroll at the game? No he was not.
Does Fann have a source of ANYBODY claiming Carroll is a micromanager? No he does not...well actually he sited a Adam Scheffler tweet, but it said nothing about Carroll being a micromanager it said everything about Carroll and Schotty agree that there is a philosophy difference. but the truth is nobody knows what was said in that meeting.. it could have been 100 things that gave reason for the two to make the split..


So then how does he come to those conclusions? It's not fact, it's opinion and assumption presented as fact. Maybe Carroll is a micromanager but responsible journalism requires a credible source or some kind of proof and Fann writes stuff all the time that has No source and it is irresponsible

If Carroll's low point is a 12-4 season, winning a division title, and his high point is winning the SB I'm not quite sure what point he is trying to make here... you have a guy who in Carroll who is the most successful head coach in Seattle's history with the third most wins among active head coaches and Fann is trying to drag him through mud suggesting that Carroll is at the low point in his career? Gee probably most of the NFL coaches who would LOVE to have Carrolls success.

The difference is when you read Gregg Bell its all factual information that is backed up with fact... Here is the facts make your own decision on what you think is happening...thats good honest journalism...

So when or if you read Joe Fann take what he says with a grain of salt because the guy has an issue with journalistic integrity...


LTH

 

[AgentDib]

Joe Fann knows what he's doing, he's catering to the Seahawks twitter doomers. He has little NFL experience or knowledge but that isn't nearly as important on twitter as saying things confidently that other people agree with. I do agree with you that he's insufferable, but he's just a symptom of today's sports journalism.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

We don't need expert sources to know that Carroll's a micro manager, there's a long history of it.

And Fann's right, it's why Schotty left under the guise of "philosophical differences." Which is code for "you keep meddling in how I think we should call games, so I can't work like this."

We're very spoiled here in the NW, our press is tame compared to other parts of the country. So I'm just fine with guys like Fann that actually aren't afraid to criticize and get into it with coaches and players.

So even if we think the reporter is wrong, it makes for far more interesting sports journalism than what we've been used to here in the NW, which is just plain vanilla tame media and writers.

 

[ivotuk]

Dib is right. and you are also correct.

Journalistic integrity has never existed, and each year, it fades further and further from what's being put out by the media.

The internet has only made it worse. In a world of instant gratification, everyone is trying to be the first to put out something that will spur clicks and mouths in to motion. It doesn't have to be true. It must only "resemble" the truth.

I kind of like Joe Fann, but "micromanaging is over the top. Pete interferes, and he needs to cut back on that. Give solid instruction to your OC before the game, make decisions on whether or not to go for it on 4th and short, and choose whether to go for 1 or 2 after a TD. And choose when to go for a FG.

With help from a spotter(s), choose whether or not to challenge. I would have 3 upstairs on TVs, or even in the TV Truck, and one right next to you that hands you the Red Flag when you demand it, based on your emotions. Is Pete's face red? Or is he listening to what's being said by his spotters? Maybe occasionally nodding his head?

Other than maybe 1 or 3 more things, leave it up to your OC!

The problem this year was Schotty thought his way would work better than Pete's, and that caused Pete to start keeping a closer eye on the offense. I don't know this for a fact, but it sure seems that way.


Anyway, I'm pretty confident of my analysis of the situation. Schotty thought he had the answers based on early success. And I think early on, Russell was enamored with the MVP idea.

Problem is, the Referees were NOT calling HOLDING early on! And we played some garbage Defenses. BUt all of a sudden, several months later, people are using that early success to argue that Schotty is a good OC and we should have kept them.

It's called "Recency BIas".

When looking at history, one must take in to account all of the variables! No offseason, swallowed whistles, zoom meetings, and a BIG FACT that everyone forgets, early season offenses have no film on them! So defenses were studying our offense from last year.

Guess what? They put the wrong defenses on the field. Early season NFL games can be a toss up! We see it every year where some anonymous team, a new offense, or with a new QB, starts off great, and all the Pundittos are crowning them.

But then they get film on them, and the defenses take over. And that's where our offense was early on. They had a huge advantage. Problem was, as soon as some good defenses acquired film, they came up with "bomb stoppers" and Schotty was unable to adjust.

They kept trying the same things, over and over, 7-Step Drops, forcing the ball deep! And Russell paid the price! Getting sacked 48 times while throwing pick after pick.

It's all about the ball! And Pete's right! Facts bear that out! Games where Seahawks won the TO battle? 12-0! Games where they lost the TO batlle? 0-5.

The lesson from this year? And TBH, last year? Schottenheimer was unable to adjust. And that lost us games.

He's a great guy, possibly a pretty good HC, and with some young, smart guys assisting him with actual input, he might produce a much better offense. But I got the impression that he focuses too much on trying to change the narrative of him being a "medicore", run oriented OC by passing the ball. Pure speculation on my part, but maybe he's trying to dissociate himself from "Martyball?"

I have a feeling that John Schneider has been looking at prospective OCs for months now, but I hope Pete takes a little time to do multiple interviews, then do a "strong" comparison between the candidates, and then pick one. We need an OC version of John Schneider! Someone who worked his way in to the NFL when he/she was young, and has been promoted year by year due his/her successful input in to the game planning. :3-1:

Week 1: Falcons #19

Week 2: Patriots #7

Week 3: Cowboys #28

Week 4: Dolphins (A good defense) #6

Week 5: Vikings #29

Week 6: Bye

Week 7: Cardinals (tough defense) #12

Week 8: SF Beat up deffense #17

Week 9: Bills very good defense and offense

 

[hawksincebirth]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/joe_fann/status/1349827568837410816?s=21[/tweet]

 

[LTH]

We don't need expert sources to know that Carroll's a micro manager, there's a long history of it.

And Fann's right, it's why Schotty left under the guise of "philosophical differences." Which is code for "you keep meddling in how I think we should call games, so I can't work like this."

We're very spoiled here in the NW, our press is tame compared to other parts of the country. So I'm just fine with guys like Fann that actually aren't afraid to criticize and get into it with coaches and players.

So even if we think the reporter is wrong, it makes for far more interesting sports journalism than what we've been used to here in the NW, which is just plain vanilla tame media and writers.

The issue isn't whether or not you agree with what he is saying or not. The issue is the precedent it sets in sports journalism. What happens if you don't agree with what he says? What happens if we find out later he was wrong? Is journalistic integrity important? Look at what Fann said about the Seahawks D and Norton... He was wrong but thousands of people believed he was giving the right information.

Look, frustration about the Seahawks season is a legit thing to talk about, everybody has an opinion... that's fine on a message board but I believe the Media has to work to a standard of integrity or none of it means anything.

LTH



I edited this cause my grammar sucks.. I"M lazy.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

We don't need expert sources to know that Carroll's a micro manager, there's a long history of it.

And Fann's right, it's why Schotty left under the guise of "philosophical differences." Which is code for "you keep meddling in how I think we should call games, so I can't work like this."

We're very spoiled here in the NW, our press is tame compared to other parts of the country. So I'm just fine with guys like Fann that actually aren't afraid to criticize and get into it with coaches and players.

So even if we think the reporter is wrong, it makes for far more interesting sports journalism than what we've been used to here in the NW, which is just plain vanilla tame media and writers.

The issue isn't whether or not you agree with what he is saying or not the issue is the precedent it sets in sports journalism... What happens if you don't agree with what he says? What happens if we find out later he was wrong? Is journalistic integrity important? Look at what Fann said about the Seahawks D and Norton... He was wrong but thousands of people believed he was giving the right information.

Look frustration about the seahawks season is a legit thing to talk about and everybody has an opinion that's fine on a message board but I believe the Media has to work to a standard of integrity or none of it means anything.

LTH

You're doing the same thing you're criticizing Fann of. These are his opinions, just as you think he's wrong are your opinions. These aren't factual observations, these are subjective observations.

Even Pete jokes with Fann at pressers because he needles Carroll and gets on him. So if Pete doesn't take him too seriously and knows he's just doing his job, that's how you should take Fann as well.............a media writer.

Hell, Fann isn't even employed by a newspaper. So journalistic integrity? Doesn't even apply, Fann's job is to write op ed and cover the team's day to day operations for NBC NW.

 

[JayhawkMike]

Dib is right. and you are also correct.

Journalistic integrity has never existed, and each year, it fades further and further from what's being put out by the media.

The internet has only made it worse. In a world of instant gratification, everyone is trying to be the first to put out something that will spur clicks and mouths in to motion. It doesn't have to be true. It must only "resemble" the truth.

I kind of like Joe Fann, but "micromanaging is over the top. Pete interferes, and he needs to cut back on that. Give solid instruction to your OC before the game, make decisions on whether or not to go for it on 4th and short, and choose whether to go for 1 or 2 after a TD. And choose when to go for a FG.

With help from a spotter(s), choose whether or not to challenge. I would have 3 upstairs on TVs, or even in the TV Truck, and one right next to you that hands you the Red Flag when you demand it, based on your emotions. Is Pete's face red? Or is he listening to what's being said by his spotters? Maybe occasionally nodding his head?

Other than maybe 1 or 3 more things, leave it up to your OC!

The problem this year was Schotty thought his way would work better than Pete's, and that caused Pete to start keeping a closer eye on the offense. I don't know this for a fact, but it sure seems that way.


Anyway, I'm pretty confident of my analysis of the situation. Schotty thought he had the answers based on early success. And I think early on, Russell was enamored with the MVP idea.

Problem is, the Referees were NOT calling HOLDING early on! And we played some garbage Defenses. BUt all of a sudden, several months later, people are using that early success to argue that Schotty is a good OC and we should have kept them.

It's called "Recency BIas".

When looking at history, one must take in to account all of the variables! No offseason, swallowed whistles, zoom meetings, and a BIG FACT that everyone forgets, early season offenses have no film on them! So defenses were studying our offense from last year.

Guess what? They put the wrong defenses on the field. Early season NFL games can be a toss up! We see it every year where some anonymous team, a new offense, or with a new QB, starts off great, and all the Pundittos are crowning them.

But then they get film on them, and the defenses take over. And that's where our offense was early on. They had a huge advantage. Problem was, as soon as some good defenses acquired film, they came up with "bomb stoppers" and Schotty was unable to adjust.

They kept trying the same things, over and over, 7-Step Drops, forcing the ball deep! And Russell paid the price! Getting sacked 48 times while throwing pick after pick.

It's all about the ball! And Pete's right! Facts bear that out! Games where Seahawks won the TO battle? 12-0! Games where they lost the TO batlle? 0-5.

The lesson from this year? And TBH, last year? Schottenheimer was unable to adjust. And that lost us games.

He's a great guy, possibly a pretty good HC, and with some young, smart guys assisting him with actual input, he might produce a much better offense. But I got the impression that he focuses too much on trying to change the narrative of him being a "medicore", run oriented OC by passing the ball. Pure speculation on my part, but maybe he's trying to dissociate himself from "Martyball?"

I have a feeling that John Schneider has been looking at prospective OCs for months now, but I hope Pete takes a little time to do multiple interviews, then do a "strong" comparison between the candidates, and then pick one. We need an OC version of John Schneider! Someone who worked his way in to the NFL when he/she was young, and has been promoted year by year due his/her successful input in to the game planning. :3-1:

Week 1: Falcons #19

Week 2: Patriots #7

Week 3: Cowboys #28

Week 4: Dolphins (A good defense) #6

Week 5: Vikings #29

Week 6: Bye

Week 7: Cardinals (tough defense) #12

Week 8: SF Beat up deffense #17

Week 9: Bills very good defense and offense

It’s primacy bias dude. Not recency bias. Recency is the last half of the season. Primacy is the first half where he did better. I hated the Schotty hire when it was made but even I softened up on him the first half.

 

[LTH]

We don't need expert sources to know that Carroll's a micro manager, there's a long history of it.

And Fann's right, it's why Schotty left under the guise of "philosophical differences." Which is code for "you keep meddling in how I think we should call games, so I can't work like this."

We're very spoiled here in the NW, our press is tame compared to other parts of the country. So I'm just fine with guys like Fann that actually aren't afraid to criticize and get into it with coaches and players.

So even if we think the reporter is wrong, it makes for far more interesting sports journalism than what we've been used to here in the NW, which is just plain vanilla tame media and writers.

The issue isn't whether or not you agree with what he is saying or not the issue is the precedent it sets in sports journalism... What happens if you don't agree with what he says? What happens if we find out later he was wrong? Is journalistic integrity important? Look at what Fann said about the Seahawks D and Norton... He was wrong but thousands of people believed he was giving the right information.

Look frustration about the seahawks season is a legit thing to talk about and everybody has an opinion that's fine on a message board but I believe the Media has to work to a standard of integrity or none of it means anything.

LTH

You're doing the same thing you're criticizing Fann of. These are his opinions, just as you think he's wrong are your opinions. These aren't factual observations, these are subjective observations.

Even Pete jokes with Fann at pressers because he needles Carroll and gets on him. So if Pete doesn't take him too seriously and knows he's just doing his job, that's how you should take Fann as well.............a media writer.

Hell, Fann isn't even employed by a newspaper. So journalistic integrity? Doesn't even apply, Fann's job is to write op ed and cover the team's day to day operations for NBC NW.

The difference is, my opinion is on a Seahawk Message board... To get a press pass from the Seahawks,you have to represent a legitimate news source... call them and find out.


LTH

 

[TreeRon]

The problem is that many people can not distinguish between opinion and news.
That is true in sports and every other avenue of journalism. 90% of what we see on FOX CNN, ESPN, and all the other 24 hour news/sports channels is opinion. There is only so much actual news to fill a 24 hour news cycle. Take it with a grain of salt and use the google machine to do your own research.

 

[LTH]

And that is the problem... people can not distinguish between opinion and news and its a problem...and that it my point in a nut shell.


LTH

 

[TraderGary]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/joe_fann/status/1349827568837410816?s=21[/tweet]

Wow, did anyone check out this tweet by Joe Fann? This is the same link that "hawksincebirth" posted, I just made it clickable for convenience.
https://twitter.com/joe_fann/status/1349827568837410816?s=21

Joe Fann
@Joe_Fann
·
2h
Russell Wilson said he and Pete Carroll have to be on the same page in regard to who the next OC is.

Wilson said he hopes to partner with Carroll in choosing the next OC.

Wilson wants to be explosive and use tempo.

Based on that tweet, and if true, it seems to me that Pete and Russ are not on the same page. Russ wants to be explosive and use tempo, Pete wants a more plodding offense while shortening the game as much as possible by running the ball more and taking the play clock down. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Is this a power play in the making?

 

[TraderGary]

We don't need expert sources to know that Carroll's a micro manager, there's a long history of it.

And Fann's right, it's why Schotty left under the guise of "philosophical differences." Which is code for "you keep meddling in how I think we should call games, so I can't work like this."

We're very spoiled here in the NW, our press is tame compared to other parts of the country. So I'm just fine with guys like Fann that actually aren't afraid to criticize and get into it with coaches and players.

So even if we think the reporter is wrong, it makes for far more interesting sports journalism than what we've been used to here in the NW, which is just plain vanilla tame media and writers.

Completely agree with this

 

[JayhawkMike]

According to LTH not only can we not criticize PC but now reporters can’t either.

PC is not only not above criticism but should be the receiver of most of it for 5 years of pathetic post season play and the high school offense that seems to survive any changes in OCs.

 

[LTH]

According to LTH not only can we not criticize PC but now reporters can’t either.

PC is not only not above criticism but should be the receiver of most of it for 5 years of pathetic post season play and the high school offense that seems to survive any changes in OCs.

That's not what I said... I said if a REPORTER criticizes Carroll that's fine I have no problem with that as long as it's backed up by a source and it's not opinion and assumption presented as fact. If someone writes an opinion piece thats fine but it needs to be presented as such.

As far as posters on this forum criticizing Carroll you are absolutely entitled to your opinion but then so am I... But if you don't back it up with something credible then your subject to be called out on it as am I..


LTH

 

[LTH]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/joe_fann/status/1349827568837410816?s=21[/tweet]

Wow, did anyone check out this tweet by Joe Fann? This is the same link that "hawksincebirth" posted, I just made it clickable for convenience.
https://twitter.com/joe_fann/status/1349827568837410816?s=21

Joe Fann
@Joe_Fann
·
2h
Russell Wilson said he and Pete Carroll have to be on the same page in regard to who the next OC is.

Wilson said he hopes to partner with Carroll in choosing the next OC.

Wilson wants to be explosive and use tempo.

Based on that tweet, and if true, it seems to me that Pete and Russ are not on the same page. Russ wants to be explosive and use tempo, Pete wants a more plodding offense while shortening the game as much as possible by running the ball more and taking the play clock down. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Is this a power play in the making?

But that's not what Wilson said. Wilson said after talking with Pete they both want to be explosive and use tempo as well as running the ball... see this is what Im talking about... maybe there is an issue between Carroll and Russ but Russ never indicated anything that suggested that in the interview.

Edit: At 27;53 in the interview with Russ flat out says there is no contention between me and coach.


LTH

 

[JayhawkMike]

According to LTH not only can we not criticize PC but now reporters can’t either.

PC is not only not above criticism but should be the receiver of most of it for 5 years of pathetic post season play and the high school offense that seems to survive any changes in OCs.

That's not what I said... I said if a REPORTER criticizes Carroll that's fine I have no problem with that as long as it's backed up by a source and it's not opinion and assumption presented as fact. If someone writes an opinion piece thats fine but it needs to be presented as such.

As far as posters on this forum criticizing Carroll you are absolutely entitled to your opinion but then so am I... But if you don't back it up with something credible then your subject to be called out on it as am I..


LTH

Fair enough. Do you need more than is already out there to believe PC shut down the offense mid season and injected himself in the playoff game? I get wanting a “just the facts” reporter but where do I find one? Even the choice of stories written shows an opinion.

 

[LTH]

According to LTH not only can we not criticize PC but now reporters can’t either.

PC is not only not above criticism but should be the receiver of most of it for 5 years of pathetic post season play and the high school offense that seems to survive any changes in OCs.

That's not what I said... I said if a REPORTER criticizes Carroll that's fine I have no problem with that as long as it's backed up by a source and it's not opinion and assumption presented as fact. If someone writes an opinion piece thats fine but it needs to be presented as such.

As far as posters on this forum criticizing Carroll you are absolutely entitled to your opinion but then so am I... But if you don't back it up with something credible then your subject to be called out on it as am I..


LTH

Fair enough. Do you need more than is already out there to believe PC shut down the offense mid season and injected himself in the playoff game? I get wanting a “just the facts” reporter but where do I find one? Even the choice of stories written shows an opinion.

I think Carroll admits he shut down the passing game. I think he was trying to get back to efficiency... Does Russ have a disagreement with Carroll? He very well might want things to be different but he didn't say that in this interview... It's clear that Russ really likes Schotty... the problem is we haven't heard anything from Schotty as to why he was fired... we haven't heard anything from Carroll. So we really don't know what's going on ... I'm confident that Carrolls number one rule is in place Protect the team... So Russ isn't going to say... but for a reporter to assume there is conflict especially after Russ said there is no conflict, is poor reporting... Now to Fanns credit he didn't come out and say that there is conflict, he indicated it in his tweet by saying Russ wants to throw the ball being explosive or whatever he said but what he didn't say was that Russ said that he and Carroll both wanted to be explosive in the pass game as well as run the ball they want to do everything great.... so Joe's tweet is misleading... I didn't read his whole story because IMO it garbage but that's just my opinion...

I like Gregg Bell, Bob Condotta those guys are held to a journalistic Standard... Now what Sgt Largent said about it not being exciting might be true but it's accurate...


LTH

 

[Scorpion05]

Opinion journalism is still journalism.

I think the real issue is some of you have an issue with people truly criticizing Pete. I see Joe Fann's posts, I don't see anything he posts that is factually incorrect.

Pete doesn't give straightforward answers, and can be a bit arrogant. These things are objectively true. He believes in his way and is the kind of coach that wants credit for his genius. He leaned on his defense early in the year, making conservative decisions knowing that the defense was struggling. He admitted to being more involved in the playcalling and "philosophical differences" wouldn't be an issue if Pete simply fired Schotty. There was more to it.

 

[LTH]

Opinion journalism is still journalism.

I think the real issue is some of you have an issue with people truly criticizing Pete. I see Joe Fann's posts, I don't see anything he posts that is factually incorrect.

Pete doesn't give straightforward answers, and can be a bit arrogant. These things are objectively true. He believes in his way and is the kind of coach that wants credit for his genius. He leaned on his defense early in the year, making conservative decisions knowing that the defense was struggling. He admitted to being more involved in the playcalling and "philosophical differences" wouldn't be an issue if Pete simply fired Schotty. There was more to it.

I see all kinds of half truths and misleading quotes. Fann picks and chooses to present a picture without telling the whole story... Gregg Bell writes the Facts and leaves the conclusion to you to decide.

Your right there is more to it. but factually we don't know what that is...Russ didn't give it up...but like I said if your going to write a story like fann did, it has to be presented as opinion and it's not it being presented as fact.


LTH