If we just had average defense

cymatica

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Like many of have said, this team doesn't have the talent to compete on defense. YET

In the last 4 games, they are giving up an average of 210 rushing per game. 210
That's on coaching too, not just talent. You don't give up that many yards a game just from talent in the NFL
 

Sgt. Largent

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That's on coaching too, not just talent. You don't give up that many yards a game just from talent in the NFL

Not sure how you can scheme more than nine players in the box. Put all 11 in the box and I don't think it'd matter with this group. Other than Neal, I don't see one defender playing with any sort of physicality.

This defense is utterly devoid of front seven talent to stop the run. Edge DE's that can't set the edge, DT's that are old, tired, injured too often to shed double teams and penetrate, and two MLB's that get washed out every run play and can't find the right gap to shoot...........let alone stuff the run plays before they get the 2nd level.
 

cymatica

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Not sure how you can scheme more than nine players in the box. Put all 11 in the box and I don't think it'd matter with this group. Other than Neal, I don't see one defender playing with any sort of physicality.

This defense is utterly devoid of front seven talent to stop the run. Edge DE's that can't set the edge, DT's that are old, tired, injured too often to shed double teams and penetrate, and two MLB's that get washed out every run play and can't find the right gap to shoot...........let alone stuff the run plays before they get the 2nd level.
I see players not trying to disengage from blocks, taking poor angles, vacated zones, getting fooled on misdirection, and letting blockers and ball carriers come to them. Some of it is talent, but a lot of it looks like mental mistakes from lack of preparation and piss poor coaching.
 

GemCity

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The linebackers in particular. They sometimes over commit to a gap (non blitz calls) and then have to recover…Brooks is athletic enough to get back out but, it’s at the sacrifice of a few yards.

I’m not taking our d-line into consideration here. We all know that needs shored up…badly.

But the stuff Barton and Brooks are doing reminds me of Pee Wee Football. 1st through 3rd grade, we had to roll with 3 LBs..strongest in the middle. He had both As. OLBs had Bs and we’d roll our ends inside out….inside out…inside out. They were taught to hit their gaps.

By 4th grade, our ILBs were smart enough to recognize where the play was going and wouldn’t over commit to their assigned gap. They’d often find the ball carrier at the LoS at B and C.

Barton crashes gaps constantly and on that rare occasion, he hits the one the play is coming to and makes you say “wow”. But most of the time, he’s several yards away from the ball and playing catch up.

I don’t get it…
 

Sgt. Largent

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I see players not trying to disengage from blocks, taking poor angles, vacated zones, getting fooled on misdirection, and letting blockers and ball carriers come to them. Some of it is talent, but a lot of it looks like mental mistakes from lack of preparation and piss poor coaching.

None of what you've said here screams "bad coaching."

Bad personnel decisions? Bad trades? Bad drafts? Bad talent evaluation? Yep, all of the above.

But the people yelling about scheme or coaching I don't get. Again, when other teams run the ball directly down the middle of the defense over and over for weeks and months? That my friend, is a player problem, not a coaching problem.

Like Bruce Irvin said after the game, until all the guys on defense have a different mentality and stop being OK with just doing their job of taking up blocks and expecting someone else to make the play? Nothing's going to change.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Btw, Wagner is rated the #1 LB against the run this year. His replacement Cody Barton? #67.

I'm not advocating that we should have kept Wagner, 18M for a team trying to rebuild it's defense and needed to turn the locker room over with young ears and voices probably needed to happen.

But it's really this simple. In order to punch people in the mouth or respond to getting punched in the mouth, you need dogs and players willing to do whatever it takes to respond.

Right now this defense, especially in the front seven is soft as hell.
 

WmHBonney

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What happened to the defense that showed up during the win streak? What changed/reverted back to the defense that was present for the first few games? I don't know. Does anybody?
 

GemCity

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Watched a fair bit of the Denver game yesterday,and their offense looked pretty damn good.
That game was an outlier. But…if ME3 plays like that next year, consistently….look out.

Not saying he can or will….just saying.
 

Mizak

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What happened to the defense that showed up during the win streak? What changed/reverted back to the defense that was present for the first few games? I don't know. Does anybody?
They played the Cardinals twice and whiny baby Murray was crying like always.
 

cymatica

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None of what you've said here screams "bad coaching."

Bad personnel decisions? Bad trades? Bad drafts? Bad talent evaluation? Yep, all of the above.

But the people yelling about scheme or coaching I don't get. Again, when other teams run the ball directly down the middle of the defense over and over for weeks and months? That my friend, is a player problem, not a coaching problem.

Like Bruce Irvin said after the game, until all the guys on defense have a different mentality and stop being OK with just doing their job of taking up blocks and expecting someone else to make the play? Nothing's going to change.
Disagree. Proper coaching can drill into their heads proper execution. It's never perfect, but good coaching can at least make up for deficiencies in talent. Bad coaching does nothing to help average or below average players. I've never seen a defense this bad at stopping the run, ever. And a lot of it is mistakes, not just getting overpowered.

The talent drop off in the NFL isn't like college, you don't give up 160+ yd rushing on the year, with several games of 200+, and 8 of those games handing opponents their season high in rush yards, from just talent or even mostly talent. That is from lack of preparation, bad scheme, misusing talent, and discipline.
 

olyfan63

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I see front-7 guys getting so physically tired in the 4th quarter that they can't get off blocks and extend their arms to tackle or even impede the runner, as the runner literally rubs shoulders with them as they go by. We just don't have the athletes and the rotation depth.

Don't overlook the Hawks excellent 4th down stop in the 4th quarter. Then the offense gave the ball right back to Carolina, and they battered the worn-down Hawks D into submission from that point on.

Part of the problem was Hawks had no running game of their own, putting too much pressure on Geno. A couple more long drives, resting the D to be able to compete, and we're celebrating a Hawks victory. So it's not just getting a couple more "thumpers" on D as Coach Chuck Knox used to say, but more beef up front as well, and deeper RB room. It seemed like several teams had RBs they picked up from other teams' practice squads that performed well.

I'm hoping for a big run-stuffer DT and a stud LB or two in this next draft, as well as a couple road-graders in the interior O-Line. I'll gladly take free agent signing help too. Spiritual successor to Cortez Kennedy, are you out there in this year's draft?
 

Sgt. Largent

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Disagree. Proper coaching can drill into their heads proper execution. It's never perfect, but good coaching can at least make up for deficiencies in talent. Bad coaching does nothing to help average or below average players. I've never seen a defense this bad at stopping the run, ever. And a lot of it is mistakes, not just getting overpowered.

The talent drop off in the NFL isn't like college, you don't give up 160+ yd rushing on the year, with several games of 200+, and 8 of those games handing opponents their season high in rush yards, from just talent or even mostly talent. That is from lack of preparation, bad scheme, misusing talent, and discipline.

What have you watched on defense and said "that's bad execution?"

Cause all I see is dudes who are getting pushed back, can't get off blocks, get washed at the line, can't set the edge and are getting punched in their mouthes.

But sure, bring in all the amazing coordinators you want, this isn't gonna look any different.
 

cymatica

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What have you watched on defense and said "that's bad execution?"

Cause all I see is dudes who are getting pushed back, can't get off blocks, get washed at the line, can't set the edge and are getting punched in their mouthes.

But sure, bring in all the amazing coordinators you want, this isn't gonna look any different.
Yes they get pushed back but that isn't all of it all the time. I see dudes not trying to get off blocks or disengaged, even dudes outside the box against receivers, it looks like they are told to stand their ground and not disengage or they are not coached at all on shedding blocks. I see dlinemen engaging and anchoring, then not even sticking an arm out to stop a running back who runs right by them. I see players taking bad angles and not wrapping up. I see the edge isn't getting set because players are choosing not to set it whether its getting fooled on misdirection or rushing too far up field.

Yeah need better players but it sure as hell looks like they are not being coached properly and are setup for failure
 

Sgt. Largent

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Yes they get pushed back but that isn't all of it all the time. I see dudes not trying to get off blocks or disengaged, even dudes outside the box against receivers, it looks like they are told to stand their ground and not disengage or they are not coached at all on shedding blocks. I see dlinemen engaging and anchoring, then not even sticking an arm out to stop a running back who runs right by them. I see players taking bad angles and not wrapping up. I see the edge isn't getting set because players are choosing not to set it whether its getting fooled on misdirection or rushing too far up field.

Yeah need better players but it sure as hell looks like they are not being coached properly and are setup for failure

Bruce Irvin disagrees with you, it absolutely is a want to/talent issue.


Pete said as much yesterday as well, they're just getting whooped and not dictating.

It's not rocket science when the other team's running 40 times through the C gaps and you're giving up 100 yards a game AFTER CONTACT.

I know it's easy to just blame the coaches, but that's not what's going on here. Unless you're blaming the coaches for not signing and drafting better players. That's certainly a valid conversation.
 

cymatica

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Bruce Irvin disagrees with you, it absolutely is a want to/talent issue.


Pete said as much yesterday as well, they're just getting whooped and not dictating.

It's not rocket science when the other team's running 40 times through the C gaps and you're giving up 100 yards a game AFTER CONTACT.

I know it's easy to just blame the coaches, but that's not what's going on here. Unless you're blaming the coaches for not signing and drafting better players. That's certainly a valid conversation.
I'm not just blaming the coaches. I'm saying they share a big part of the blame. I also doubt Bruce is going to throw the coaches under the bus, but who is coaching these guys who cant shed blocks?
 

Sgt. Largent

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I'm not just blaming the coaches. I'm saying they share a big part of the blame. I also doubt Bruce is going to throw the coaches under the bus, but who is coaching these guys who cant shed blocks?

Lol. You don't think NFL players who have been playing football since Pee-Wee haven't been coached the techniques on how to shed blocks? THAT'S what you think is going on?

C'mon man.
 
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