How are we so Cap strapped?

[Tical21]

The problem we're going to run into, is that we have drafted like garbage.

You mean like Rawls, Clark and the rookie of the year nominee Tyler Lockett?

And if Simon wasn't more brittle than a leaf that's been left in the sun too long, he'd be our starting corner right now. Even so, Shead came in and played well.

So not sure where the draft criticism comes from. Yes our 2014 draft wasn't the best, but other than that draft class we've drafted better than any other team in the league in the PC/JS era........and it's not even close.

There isn't a single above-average player from the 2013 draft. Nor the 2014 draft. Besides Lockett and probably Clark, the 2015 draft looks full of marginal-at-best players as well. That might not be fair, probably too early to comment on that one. Two players in a 3-year draft span is not going to replenish your team when you are leaking good vets every year.

I'd argue that Willson is an above average player from 2013, he's our most productive TE..........and KPL, Britt, Marsh and Richardson before he got hurt have been good depth.

btw, two years we didn't even have a 1st round pick.

But you didn't specify 2013 and 2014, you said "we drafted like garbage"...........which just isn't true, the majority of our stars are fantastic draft picks, the very core of our SB win, and still the core of our team.

Luke Willson is not an above average player. I don't know that he'd be on the 2-deep on any other team. KPL, Britt, Marsh and Richardson? I like Richardson, but I don't think any of the others contribute on any other team. Justin Britt isn't a starting NFL player. KPL? Marsh? Marsh is an 8th DL. I agree, we drafted fantastically in 2011 and had some nice picks in 2012. Those drafts have gotten us where we are, and we can't stay at that level while continuing to draft terribly. I will go as far as to say that over the past three years, we have had the worst cumulative drafts in the entire NFL. Trading picks for overpaid players that don't contribute doesn't constitute a free pass.

 

[Overseasfan]

How many other teams have 7 Pro Bowl caliber players on defense? Maybe the Broncos but that's about it. How many other teams have a top 5 QB with elite players at RB, WR and TE? Steelers and maybe the Panthers qualify. How many have both? Only we do. That's the reason we're so cap strapped.

Get 4 extra average defensive players (RCB, SAM and both DT positions) and our defense is guaranteed to be among, if not the best defense in the league again. Then make sure our O-line performs at an around average level and our offense will be among the best as well. We're in a very good position right now. Actually a position 90% of all other teams would kill to be in. Don't worry too much.

 

[DavidSeven]

We haven't come away with many good players in Rounds 1-3. Even mediocre teams are adding 1-2 core players every year in these rounds. That makes a huge difference. The 2013-2014 off-seasons set us back some ways. Trading away expensive 1st round picks makes some sense, but not if you are trading those picks for even more expensive FA busts.

Consider how valuable hitting on Tyler Lockett has been for this team. What if we still had a huge hole at WR2/KR? We'd be out there spending another $10M to find a "Tyler Locket." And that's just one pick! Had we hit on a few more of those between 2013-2014, we'd have many less worries now.

We were paying Wilson, Lynch, Graham, Thomas, Sherman, Wagner, and Wright like the first or second best players at their positions. Well-earned, but that means you gotta find cheap depth everywhere else on your team. That is something we were able to do in 2011-2012, despite spending big money on guys like Zach Miller and Sidney Rice.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Luke Willson is not an above average player. I don't know that he'd be on the 2-deep on any other team. KPL, Britt, Marsh and Richardson? I like Richardson, but I don't think any of the others contribute on any other team. Justin Britt isn't a starting NFL player. KPL? Marsh? Marsh is an 8th DL. I agree, we drafted fantastically in 2011 and had some nice picks in 2012. Those drafts have gotten us where we are, and we can't stay at that level while continuing to draft terribly. I will go as far as to say that over the past three years, we have had the worst cumulative drafts in the entire NFL. Trading picks for overpaid players that don't contribute doesn't constitute a free pass.

I think you're giving other teams far more credit than they deserve. MOST draft classes don't pan out, for most teams.

If they did, perennial losers like the Browns, Jags and Titans wouldn't continue to suck.

Again, to criticize Pete and John for not drafting well is about as far from the truth as you can get. The very reason we won a SB and continue to be one of the handful of elite teams in the NFL is because their hit rate has been off the charts. Criticizing them for a couple average to below average draft classes is flat out wrong.

 

[kobebryant]

Even mediocre teams are adding 1-2 core players every year in these rounds.

Really? Which mediocre teams are adding 1-2 core players in rounds 1-2 every year?

 

[Smellyman]

Probably all the players that had to be paid the last few years and some bad ones.

Is it really a mystery?

I don't even follow it but it's not that hard to see...

 

[Basis4day]

Even mediocre teams are adding 1-2 core players every year in these rounds.

Really? Which mediocre teams are adding 1-2 core players in rounds 1-2 every year?

When your cupboard is bare, all groceries fit.

 

[irfuben32]

Cut Graham

 

[mikeak]

OP -- Harvin actually was cancelled out last year.

There was a $7M cost saving in 2014 that rolled over to 2015 from trading him. That was the remaining salary in 2014 and it offset the $7M that hit the books in 2015

For starters the premise is also somewhat wrong. We are not incredibly strapped. We are simply paying for top players this year at the cost they normally come at. Some will say that we overspent on people not producing (Harvin, Cary etc) instead of saving cap space to roll over to now.

However we spent to win a Superbowl and we did, lost another one and hit the playoffs four years in a row. It was right to spend accordingly and despite doing so we are still fine. Not great but quite ok and we can still convert salaries to signing bonuses and really push this issue 5 years into the future, but at some point the bill will come due

 

[mrt144]

Luke Willson is not an above average player. I don't know that he'd be on the 2-deep on any other team. KPL, Britt, Marsh and Richardson? I like Richardson, but I don't think any of the others contribute on any other team. Justin Britt isn't a starting NFL player. KPL? Marsh? Marsh is an 8th DL. I agree, we drafted fantastically in 2011 and had some nice picks in 2012. Those drafts have gotten us where we are, and we can't stay at that level while continuing to draft terribly. I will go as far as to say that over the past three years, we have had the worst cumulative drafts in the entire NFL. Trading picks for overpaid players that don't contribute doesn't constitute a free pass.

I think you're giving other teams far more credit than they deserve. MOST draft classes don't pan out, for most teams.

If they did, perennial losers like the Browns, Jags and Titans wouldn't continue to suck.

Again, to criticize Pete and John for not drafting well is about as far from the truth as you can get. The very reason we won a SB and continue to be one of the handful of elite teams in the NFL is because their hit rate has been off the charts. Criticizing them for a couple average to below average draft classes is flat out wrong.

And more than anything it's that where they've failed is apparently obvious now - OL is in shambles precisely because they took the risks they did. If there was no counterbalance of success there'd be legitimate bones to pick but at this point this is the choice they made.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Luke Willson is not an above average player. I don't know that he'd be on the 2-deep on any other team. KPL, Britt, Marsh and Richardson? I like Richardson, but I don't think any of the others contribute on any other team. Justin Britt isn't a starting NFL player. KPL? Marsh? Marsh is an 8th DL. I agree, we drafted fantastically in 2011 and had some nice picks in 2012. Those drafts have gotten us where we are, and we can't stay at that level while continuing to draft terribly. I will go as far as to say that over the past three years, we have had the worst cumulative drafts in the entire NFL. Trading picks for overpaid players that don't contribute doesn't constitute a free pass.

I think you're giving other teams far more credit than they deserve. MOST draft classes don't pan out, for most teams.

If they did, perennial losers like the Browns, Jags and Titans wouldn't continue to suck.

Again, to criticize Pete and John for not drafting well is about as far from the truth as you can get. The very reason we won a SB and continue to be one of the handful of elite teams in the NFL is because their hit rate has been off the charts. Criticizing them for a couple average to below average draft classes is flat out wrong.

And more than anything it's that where they've failed is apparently obvious now - OL is in shambles precisely because they took the risks they did. If there was no counterbalance of success there'd be legitimate bones to pick but at this point this is the choice they made.

Neither Pete or John would tell you they think the O-line has been one of the success stories of their tenure here.

But I do think they would say not spending a ton of draft capital and FA money on O-lineman IS on purpose. That's why they hired Cable, to make lemonade out of lemons so that we could spend money and picks putting together a nasty defense.

For the most part it's worked, although IMO this year is the year they're going to have to go against that philosophy and spend FA money and picks on the O-line. Especially if Sweezy and Okung leave, which I think they will.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

Luke Willson is not an above average player. I don't know that he'd be on the 2-deep on any other team. KPL, Britt, Marsh and Richardson? I like Richardson, but I don't think any of the others contribute on any other team. Justin Britt isn't a starting NFL player. KPL? Marsh? Marsh is an 8th DL. I agree, we drafted fantastically in 2011 and had some nice picks in 2012. Those drafts have gotten us where we are, and we can't stay at that level while continuing to draft terribly. I will go as far as to say that over the past three years, we have had the worst cumulative drafts in the entire NFL. Trading picks for overpaid players that don't contribute doesn't constitute a free pass.

I think you're giving other teams far more credit than they deserve. MOST draft classes don't pan out, for most teams.

If they did, perennial losers like the Browns, Jags and Titans wouldn't continue to suck.

Again, to criticize Pete and John for not drafting well is about as far from the truth as you can get. The very reason we won a SB and continue to be one of the handful of elite teams in the NFL is because their hit rate has been off the charts. Criticizing them for a couple average to below average draft classes is flat out wrong.

And more than anything it's that where they've failed is apparently obvious now - OL is in shambles precisely because they took the risks they did. If there was no counterbalance of success there'd be legitimate bones to pick but at this point this is the choice they made.

Neither Pete or John would tell you they think the O-line has been one of the success stories of their tenure here.

But I do think they would say not spending a ton of draft capital and FA money on O-lineman IS on purpose. That's why they hired Cable, to make lemonade out of lemons so that we could spend money and picks putting together a nasty defense.

For the most part it's worked, although IMO this year is the year they're going to have to go against that philosophy and spend FA money and picks on the O-line. Especially if Sweezy and Okung leave, which I think they will.

I agree with all but one part. Neither Pete NOR John... you're welcome!

 

[Rob12]

Just wondering if someone can give me a quick breakdown of why we are so cash strapped, we were obviously hurt last year with Harvins 7m in dead money but thats off the books this year, Lynch's contract should be off the books (minus signing bonus) the only albatross contract I can think of is Jimmy Graham. We are paying nothing for our offensive line, we are paying next to nothing for WR and RB. How is it we not only can't afford to look at any big name free agents but afford to sign our own mid level guys? I see teams like the Dolphins who have had egregiously bad contracts ala Suh, Wake and others yet they are still able to go bidding for FA's like mario williams (and take on Maxwell and Alonso cap hits).

Is paying top rates for a CB, FS, MLB and QB really all a team can afford?

We pay our defense a lot, and rightfully so.

 

[irocdave]

Pay your high-end core talents: Russ, Marshawn, Jimmy, Bennett, Avril, Wagner, Wright, Sherm, Thomas, Chancellor, probably Baldwin soon

Take your medicine and unfortunately understand that you can't pay your middle class what other teams are willing to: Breno, Carp, Golden, Browner, Maxwell, Thurmond, Malcolm, probably Bruce, Kearse, Lane and Sweezy

Throw in a couple bad things, which all teams have: Harvin, Cary

Eliminate the middle class and get good return from guys on the cheap : Rawls, Lockett, Willson, Clark, Shead, McCray and hopefully Glowinski and this years rookie class.

Seattle has essentially eliminated the middle class and is reliant upon young guys capably fleshing out the roster around the stars.

Yeah this is a great breakdown, and maybe we hit on a draft pick or 2 like we usually do. However the two previous years we had hands down the best roster in the NFL, last year we did not Den and Car had better rosters and arguably Ari as well, our team is not going to get any better this off season, I don't see how we get back to a superbowl if we just continuously lose talent. Take GB they had arguably a similiar talent level as us last year, they are going to get better or stay the same this offseason (and get jordy back) we are going to lose our LT, RG, CB2, WR2 and ROLB

That would be due to the lack of talent drafted in 2013/2014. If you look at those 2 drafts there are no Lockett/Clark level players to help us take advantage of the low salary. This is the way the modern NFL is structured. Look at GB, Pitt, NE. All their talent injections are from the draft primarily.

This. My post could have been shortened if we had a "like" choice.

It's now time for PC and JS to prove their worth again with great drafts, churning through the bargain bin and coaching. That's why they get paid the big bucks, last 4 years were awesome but what about the coming year? What have you done for me lately, you can see it in numerous posts on this board lately from fans.

 

[bjornanderson21]

We are hurting in cap space because every year for the last 3 years we have been having fewer and fewer starters on rookie deals.

Our drafts failed to bring in guys that were good enough to let us move on from our starters.

Lots of players on rookie deals = lots of cap space

Few starters on rookie deals = not much cap space.


We need to draft more starting-quality players.

 

[TDOTSEAHAWK]

Cap space is not the be all and end all.

Having a bit cap space and a mediocre team is bad.

Having a bit of cap space but being one of the most talented teams in the league is a different story.

Furthermore, we have lots of smart contracts and though our realized cap space is low, we do not have an albatross deals that we can't get out of and so when looking at cap commitments over several years - we are actually just league average.

As for just drafting better - it is a bit of a disingenuous argument. The guys who are costing the most amount of money are guys that we wouldn't replace through the draft.

We won't just draft a new Wilson, Sherman or Thomas every year. In fact, are biggest cap commitments are tied up in guys you simply wouldn't replace through the draft.

The draft is more about having players who complement those core guys and keep us competitive every year. In other words, cap room is not a sign of drafting well but consistent success is. As I said at the beginning, being a Super Bowl contender is what it is all about and you don't stay on top very long unless you have a group of core players who are elite. Furthermore, you don't keep those players around long unless you pay them so we should only start stressing about cap space when we aren't Super Bowl favourites.

 

[olyfan63]

And who among us knows for sure that the OL won't develop and become NFL average, even losing Sweezy and maybe Okung too? Maybe this is the year Glowinski and Sokoli and Gilliam and even Britt, plus a bargain bin FA and maybe a priomising draft pick, make Carroll and Cable look like geniuses.

Who's to say that Sweezy didn't choose to leave partly because he knew he was at high risk of being beaten out this next year by Glowinski?

Not saying our OL is going to be a worldbeater, and it's been an untraditional approach, but this could be the year the tree really starts to bear fruit.

We lost Irvin, our best "spy" against mobile QBs (Cam Newton, Kaep in his prime), so we need a replacement there, but paying $9M for Irvin would have been insanity for this team. Tuba already gives us pretty much what Mebane did, so we just need to score some depth.

With a few young guys getting a little better, some prospects panning out, some guys getting healthy, we are right there in the mix as one of the most talented NFL teams.

 

[bigskydoc]

. I agree, we drafted fantastically in 2011 and had some nice picks in 2012. Those drafts have gotten us where we are, and we can't stay at that level while continuing to draft terribly. I will go as far as to say that over the past three years, we have had the worst cumulative drafts in the entire NFL. Trading picks for overpaid players that don't contribute doesn't constitute a free pass.

It's almost as if something critical changed after the 2012 draft. Like our scouting department went to hell after knocking it out of the park in the previous drafts. Like we lost a key member of that department who was truly responsible for the successes of the earlier drafts.

Oh yeah. Scot Mcloughan.

-bsd

 

[hawknation2016]

. I agree, we drafted fantastically in 2011 and had some nice picks in 2012. Those drafts have gotten us where we are, and we can't stay at that level while continuing to draft terribly. I will go as far as to say that over the past three years, we have had the worst cumulative drafts in the entire NFL. Trading picks for overpaid players that don't contribute doesn't constitute a free pass.

It's almost as if something critical changed after the 2012 draft. Like our scouting department went to hell after knocking it out of the park in the previous drafts. Like we lost a key member of that department who was truly responsible for the successes of the earlier drafts.

Oh yeah. Scot Mcloughan.

-bsd

That, and it also had to do with the transition of scouting authority from Carroll to Schneider after the 2012 draft. Carroll acknowledged after 2013 that, three years removed from the college game, he was no longer as familiar with all the players entering the draft, and he did not have the time to both watch college film and fulfill his duties as head coach. I think the change was also informed by Schneider's great achievement in pushing for Russell Wilson to be drafted in 2012.

So there was an adjustment period in 2013 and 2014. However, the 2015 draft is already a success and over time could turn into a grand slam. Tyler Locket was a First-Team All-Pro returner and was one of the most efficient receivers in football as a rookie. On the other side of the ball, Frank Clark flashed some dominant abilities against both the run and as a situational pass rusher. Corner Tye Smith seems to fit right in with the L.O.B. but needs more seasoning of his technique. In addition, this could be a big year for second-year offensive linemen Mark Glowinski, Kristjan Sokoli, and Terry Poole. They will be competing for at least one starting position this year and probably two.

 

[HawkAroundTheClock]

It's been interesting to watch this first big wave of 2nd contracts under the latest CBA. John Clayton has been saying it from the start – the NFL's middle class is shrinking. Rookies on peanuts, superstars on megadeals, with a smaller pool of established vets, of which a handful get overpaid and most go the journeyman route on team-friendly contracts.

Pete and John happened to accomplish the rebuild "better than it's ever been done before" and won a SB from scratch in 4 years. They created instant superstars and have navigated the market and roster quite well. Their big FA splashes I liken to a legitimately health-conscious person on a diet who allows for one naughty desert per year. Percy, Jimmy, and Carry Williams might not be good for you(r cap space), but they could be oh so sweet.

As the core of this team matures, and the CBA does its job of limiting the number of superstars a team can pay, I wonder if P&J will be less likely to splurge on the naughty deserts.