Nice repartee...Drew Brees was no "castoff" or unknown. His arrival in New Orleans was the result of San Diego drafting an excellent QB Eli Manning 2004 #1 overall pick. San Diego then traded during 2004 draft to the NY Giants for Phil Rivers (drafted #4 overall) the Giants 3rd (2004) and additionally the Giants 1rst and 5th picks in 2005. End result Drew beat out Doug Flutie in 2002 had one good season his contract year *selected to Pro Bowl*(2004). Contract disputes led to him playing 2005 under the Franchise tag...only to be seriously injured late in 2nd qtr of final game of 2005...replaced by Phil Rivers. Dree Brees spurned a 5 yr offer from Chargers and signed with New Orleans for 6 yrs/60million in 2006.
Hawks Take NFCW - Riddick
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BASF
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Sean Payton's coaching was responsible for:
2000 Kerry Collins finally becomes a complete QB, is voted second in comeback player of the year and has three straight seasons of more than 3600 yards passing
2003 never was Quincy Carter finally has a good season finishing second in comeback player of the year while throwing for more yards than the rest of his career combined
2004 Vinny Testaverde has his third best season of his twenty year career after having been a backup for the three previous seasons
2005 Drew Bledsoe after being a middling starter for two seasons, has a last hurrah with the Cowboys leading the league in fourth quarter comebacks and game winning drives while throwing for more than 3600 yards.
In 2006 Brees definitely took a jump with Payton as his coach. I believe it was the right combination to make Brees legendary. He was a very good QB before Payton, but the combination of the two made Brees a sure fire first ballot hall of famer, because Payton made the correct adjustments to the offense to make Brees flourish.
Hawkinaz
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Brees going to New Orleans had a bit of luck, Brees was about to sign with Miami but failed the Dolphins physical with the team doctor the doctor wouldn’t sign off on his shoulder. Payton was willing to take a risk, if Brees had signed with the Dolphins I doubt he would have had the same success under Jimmy Johnson coached Dolphins
Mick063
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Seattle, as a franchise, is forty-eight years old. Within that span it has produced 20 playoff teams. Less than half of the years in its existence.
1) 1983-Coach Chuck Knox-Quarterback Dave Krieg
2) 1984-Coach Chuck Knox-Quarterback Dave Krieg
3) 1987-Coach Chuck Knox-Quarterback Dave Krieg
4) 1988-Coach Chuck Knox-Quarterback Dave Krieg
5) 1999-Coach Mike Holmgren-Quarterback Jon Kitna
6) 2003-Coach Mike Holmgren-Quarterback Matt Hasselbeck
7) 2004-Coach Mike Holmgren-Quarterback Matt Hasselbeck
8) 2005-Coach Mike Holmgren-Quarterback Matt Hasselbeck
9) 2006-Coach Mike Holmgren-Quarterback Matt Hasselbeck
10) 2007-Coach Mike Holmgren-Quarterback Matt Hasselbeck
11) 2010-Coach Pete Carroll-Quarterback Matt Hasselbeck
12) 2012-Coach Pete Carroll-Quarterback Russell Wilson
13) 2013-Coach Pete Carroll-Quarterback Russell Wilson
14) 2014-Coach Pete Carroll-Quarterback Russell Wilson
15) 2015-Coach Pete Carroll-Quarterback Russell Wilson
16) 2016-Coach Pete Carroll-Quarterback Russell Wilson
17) 2018-Coach Pete Carroll-Quarterback Russell Wilson
18) 2019-Coach Pete Carroll-Quarterback Russell Wilson
19) 2020-Coach Pete Carroll-Quarterback Russell Wilson
20) 2022-Coach Pete Carroll-Quarterback Geno Smith
Chuck Knox sent Seattle to the playoffs four times using one primary quarterback.
Mike Holmgren sent Seattle to the playoffs six times using two primary quarterbacks.
Pete Carroll sent Seattle to the playoffs ten times using three primary quarterbacks.
Why is Mike Holmgren considered to be a "quarterback whisperer" while Pete Carroll isn't? Why does BASF feel compelled to use Sean Payton's time as an assistant coach to embellish his quarterback record in order to compete with what Pete Carroll has done as a head coach? I mean if we are going to cherry pick like that, let's talk about winning the college national championship twice with Matt Leinart as the quarterback. Did Sean Payton "develop" those two aging veterans with many prior games as a starting QB under their belt, Vinny Testaverde or Drew Bledsoe....as an assistant? Really? We are giving an assistant coach that inherits veteran pro bowl quarterbacks, credit, for being a developer of quarterbacks?
Here is my claim: WE WILL FIND OUT THIS YEAR. We will finally be able to say that:
Sean Payton is a product of quarterbacks.
Quarterbacks are a product of Pete Carroll.
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BASF
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This is the only part that I am addressing. Not sure where the tangent you went on comes from. The point is that Payton (yes as the offensive coordinator as well as the head coach) has tailored offenses to get the best out of a myriad of QBs where you claimed that Brees made him. I never said in my post that he developed those QBs. Those were your words after my post, not even in the one I quoted.
Seems to me that the QBs each got more production under each coach than prior seasons. If you want to claim the development aspect, only Wilson had no NFL experience of any of the QBs under either coach in the NFL. I will state unequivocaly that Wilson was as close to a finished product as any QB coming into the NFL maybe ever. His lack of evolution under Pete Carroll is what held him back. I blame Wilson's hubris for this, but Carroll not holding him to task about his lack of improvement is perhaps the worst action Carroll committed in the NFL.
Mick063
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Not trying to be an antagonist or contentious. Just trying to make my case.
Ask yourself this: Which of the following four statements would you consider to be the most accurate? Rank them in your estimated order from most accurate to least accurate.
1) Pete Carrol is a successful head coach because of the play of Russell Wilson, Matt Hasselbeck, and Geno Smith. (Three starting playoff quarterbacks)
2) Sean Payton is a successful head coach because of the play of Drew Brees. (One starting playoff quarterback)
3) Russell Wilson, Matt Hasselbeck, and Geno Smith were successful because of Pete Carroll's coaching.
4) Drew Brees was successful because of Sean Payton's coaching.
94Smith
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You were not going to beat the healthy 2022 49ers with a running game and excellent DB play. Would have to stop the run and short pass game.
BASF
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I believe that both of us are aware that each of those statements are far too simplistic as being a successful head coach takes far more than quarterback play.
keasley45
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I think Peyton has shown he knows what he's doing. If you look at the performance he got out of Winston, Hill and Simien his last year in NO, it's pretty impressive. No, the stats don't jump off the sheet, but when you consider he got 2 of those guys to toss a td to int rate greater than 3 to 1, when Winston alone was a perennial TO machine... that's 100% attributable to him.
But your point about Pete being vastly underrated as a QB teacher... what Pete did with Tjack, now Geno, (Hass was on a downward swing but played ok) looks a lot like what Peyton did in 2021 with 'nobodies '. Granted, Pete struck gold with Geno, and i think history will show he made Russ, but they are both gifted at getting top play from the position.
I don't expect SP to light things up like he did with Brees. No qb on the Broncos roster has Drews ability, and arguably the one who has the most potential to follow in the mold of Brees is Stidham. But Russ hitting at 2.5 to 1 TD to Int, 3400 yards and 60 to 65 percent? That's reasonable. I just don't see him squeezing water from the rock, so-to-speak. If I had a guess I think he's probably more enthusiastic to see how much of his playbook Stidham can run than he is about how reduced he can has to make it for Russ. He did the boiled down thing in NO for one year and threw in the towel.
We shall see in a few months time.
PC knows how to work with other QBs as well if you include his coaching history from his days from the Patriots and collegiate career. Had Robert Edwards not suffered that injury the Patriots were going to be competing with a re-tooled roster as a lot of Parcell hand picked players were slowly drifting away from the team via free agency or due to age.
The key link between PC and SP is that the running game is integral to create a balanced offensive attack. The difference is that with Brees SP didn't have to do that for a long time. But eventually the team needed to play complimentary football to help out Brees from taking a beating and to rebalance the roster to bring resources to the defensive side of the ball.
You can look at what Canales is trying to do in Tampa Bay by installing a balanced attack to help out the QB that wins (Trask or Mayfield) the job. Canales was heavily influenced by what PC taught him over the years about complimentary football and matchups each week by having different personnel groupings based on data metrics and trends.
Bottom line is good coaches adapt to the talent they have and they do not put it all on their respective individiual shoulders. Even if they are elite talent like Drew Brees, Tom Brady, or Mahomes.
Mahomes had an impressive season last year but what was lost in the shuffle was the Chiefs as a team put 1900 yards on the ground. While Mahomes rushed for 358 yards the rest of the team contributed at least 1400 yards.
In comparison the Hawks put up 2000+ yards on the ground as a team while Geno ran for 366 yards. That just goes to show you that even in the modern NFL game where passing is king that the run game has to be an integral part of a winning team formula in some fashion.
The key link between PC and SP is that the running game is integral to create a balanced offensive attack. The difference is that with Brees SP didn't have to do that for a long time. But eventually the team needed to play complimentary football to help out Brees from taking a beating and to rebalance the roster to bring resources to the defensive side of the ball.
You can look at what Canales is trying to do in Tampa Bay by installing a balanced attack to help out the QB that wins (Trask or Mayfield) the job. Canales was heavily influenced by what PC taught him over the years about complimentary football and matchups each week by having different personnel groupings based on data metrics and trends.
Bottom line is good coaches adapt to the talent they have and they do not put it all on their respective individiual shoulders. Even if they are elite talent like Drew Brees, Tom Brady, or Mahomes.
Mahomes had an impressive season last year but what was lost in the shuffle was the Chiefs as a team put 1900 yards on the ground. While Mahomes rushed for 358 yards the rest of the team contributed at least 1400 yards.
In comparison the Hawks put up 2000+ yards on the ground as a team while Geno ran for 366 yards. That just goes to show you that even in the modern NFL game where passing is king that the run game has to be an integral part of a winning team formula in some fashion.
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