Golden State Warriors

[hawknation2016]

The Warriors defense really deserves some plaudits. Curry/Thompson are not playing like themselves, missing open shots they normally make, etc, and the Warriors are still crushing the Cavs with excellent ball movement and sweltering defense. That is, even without the 3-point circus they are most known for, the Warriors are playing some all-time great basketball.

Before this year, no team had ever beaten an opponent by 48 combined points in the first two games of the Finals.

If we account for the fact that the first two Finals games this year were played on the Warriors’ home court — meaning we subtract from the home team’s margin its built-in advantage of about 3.6 points per game, in accordance with our Elo ratings — the Cavs have been running about 20 points per game behind the Warriors in the series so far. Even among teams sporting 0-2 Finals deficits, that’s just embarrassing.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/hey ... get-swept/

 

[Hasselbeck]

The Bulls series with the Blazers, Jazz and Sonics were toss ups at Game 1. All three of those teams had loaded rosters and were primed to beat the Bulls.

Jordan took over those series in key moments (Blazers game 1, Jazz game 6, Sonics first two games). I don't think it's quite fair to suggest that he and his team had easy victories.

Jordan at many points in his career did what Lebron did, took his team to the Finals on his own, literally. Jordan, however, was a much more influential all around player than Lebron and I think that helped when the Bulls maybe didnt have a clear advantage. We have not seen that from Lebron since the decision.

They weren't "easy" but the Bulls were overwhelming favorites in all of them. LeBron's teams have been favored to win in 2 of the 7 trips he's made to the Finals. Big difference.

 

[Hawk-Lock]

Yeah I don't like the LeBron and MJ comparisons. The only reason they get compared is because they are both greats. Their games are nothing alike. Like someone mentioned, LeBron's best comparison is probably Magic Johnson.The closest thing to MJ was Kobe, they were actually pretty darn similar.

I think the one thing that holds LeBron back is his lack of perimeter shooting. Unlike MJ, he's never had a consistent outside jumpshot. But at the same time, LeBron might be the most physically gifted player to ever play in the NBA. He can get to the rim at will, but I think it takes a toll on his body. Late in games, Curry/MJ/Kobe can just pull up from 15-20 feet and hit a jumper on you. LeBron can't really do that, at least not consistently. If LeBron had MJ's jump-shot he would be unstoppable.

In the end, LeBron will be seen as a top 5 player. Whether it is deserved, I'm not sure, but he has had a great career. I still think he gets at least 1 or 2 more championships before he hangs it up.

 

[soohawk]

only way lebron wins more larry's is if they are able to stack another team for him...because he needs to be guided on the floor and in the locker room. he can't do it without the support network, something his ego won't allow for in Cleveland.

 

[WilsonMVP]

The difference between LBJ and Jordan is clear. LBJ doesn't make the guys around him better. MJ did. That's why MJ has 6 championships. The only way LBJ gets those is if he has established superstars like Wade and Bosh on the team with him. Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving are nowhere close to those guys. Golden State wins without Stephon Curry. They play the game as a team and that's why they will win this series and repeat.

I hate this take. It's lazy. It's wrong.

Without LeBron, Cleveland is in the lotto. Yes, the East is weak and that helps the Cavs get to the Finals. But to say LeBron doesn't make his teammates better is flat wrong.

Also you talk up MJ like he was playing with the Washington State Cougars as his supporting cast. He had a Top 30 player in Scottie Pippen in his prime (who was so good that he nearly took the Bulls back to the Finals when MJ was playing baseball), a guy like Dennis Rodman who was just perfect for that era of basketball, and numerous role players that were very under-appreciated.

Also Curry had a pretty good game last night, he just didn't play a lot of minutes because of foul trouble. The Warriors are just stacked at the positions where Cleveland is very weak. That doesn't mean LeBron is the sole reason this team is about to lose in 4 or 5 games.. sometimes you just run into the better team in sports and get waxed. It happens.

If you look at LeBron's career, I feel like the only time his teams appeared in the Finals and were the clear, no doubt better team was the year he choked against the Mavs and the year they beat the Thunder. That's it. Two of the three losses to San Antonio involved LeBron's teams paling in comparison in talent to the Spurs team. The 2013 team that won in 7 was evenly matched with that team and that's why it was a nail biting series.

Conversely you look at those Bulls teams and all 6 times Jordan appeared in the Finals, those teams were better than their opponent.

Star talent matters in this sport, but match-ups matter so much more. LeBron has run into a historically great Warriors team for two straight years, a Spurs team in the midst of their dynasty and another Spurs team loaded with talent and fueled by anger after a series loss the year before + the Heat roster just aging at the wrong time. Nothing LeBron could do about that.

Speaking of the Warriors and players around jordan, Kerr was also on the bulls and he was a pretty good shooter . There was also Kukoc. Pointwise for the season in 96 it went Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr

 

[Alexander]

The difference between LBJ and Jordan is clear. LBJ doesn't make the guys around him better. MJ did. That's why MJ has 6 championships. The only way LBJ gets those is if he has established superstars like Wade and Bosh on the team with him. Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving are nowhere close to those guys. Golden State wins without Stephon Curry. They play the game as a team and that's why they will win this series and repeat.

I hate this take. It's lazy. It's wrong.

Without LeBron, Cleveland is in the lotto. Yes, the East is weak and that helps the Cavs get to the Finals. But to say LeBron doesn't make his teammates better is flat wrong.

Also you talk up MJ like he was playing with the Washington State Cougars as his supporting cast. He had a Top 30 player in Scottie Pippen in his prime (who was so good that he nearly took the Bulls back to the Finals when MJ was playing baseball), a guy like Dennis Rodman who was just perfect for that era of basketball, and numerous role players that were very under-appreciated.

Also Curry had a pretty good game last night, he just didn't play a lot of minutes because of foul trouble. The Warriors are just stacked at the positions where Cleveland is very weak. That doesn't mean LeBron is the sole reason this team is about to lose in 4 or 5 games.. sometimes you just run into the better team in sports and get waxed. It happens.

If you look at LeBron's career, I feel like the only time his teams appeared in the Finals and were the clear, no doubt better team was the year he choked against the Mavs and the year they beat the Thunder. That's it. Two of the three losses to San Antonio involved LeBron's teams paling in comparison in talent to the Spurs team. The 2013 team that won in 7 was evenly matched with that team and that's why it was a nail biting series.

Conversely you look at those Bulls teams and all 6 times Jordan appeared in the Finals, those teams were better than their opponent.

Star talent matters in this sport, but match-ups matter so much more. LeBron has run into a historically great Warriors team for two straight years, a Spurs team in the midst of their dynasty and another Spurs team loaded with talent and fueled by anger after a series loss the year before + the Heat roster just aging at the wrong time. Nothing LeBron could do about that.

I agree with this. The idea that LeBron doesn't make the players around him better is just asinine. I'm not saying that LeBron is on MJ's level, but LeBron has rarely benefitted from the kind of supporting cast that MJ had in the 90s when he won all his championships. That's not to take anything away from MJ (a 6-0 record in the finals is nothing to sneeze at), but imagine how much better the Cavs would look if you replaced Irving/Love with Pippen/Rodman.

 

[Hasselbeck]

Speaking of the Warriors and players around jordan, Kerr was also on the bulls and he was a pretty good shooter . There was also Kukoc. Pointwise for the season in 96 it went Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr

This years Warriors team is probably deeper than that Bulls team, but MJ and Pippen were so dominant together.

 

[Hawk-Lock]

And yeah to say LBJ doesn't make his teammates better is an absurd statement. He is probably the one guy in the NBA who makes everyone around him better. The one knock against Kobe was I never got the feeling he really made his teammates better.

 

[knownone]

I think for me it's hard to judge Lebron on his post season failings. Let's face it Lebron has been apart of some terribly designed teams.

Lebron's greatest gift is having the ball in his hands and his ability to attack the basket and score through contact, he's never developed into a dominant post player, he's never been the greatest shooter. He's great all around don't get me wrong, but for some reason, the teams built around him have been with super stars whose greatest attribute is the same as Lebron's. Seriously, Kyrie Irving is one of the best players on this planet at getting to the rim and finishing, his dominance at getting to the rim is the reason he's so dangerous as a player, and without the ball... he's average.

This wouldn't be an issue if the Cavs had a plethora of great spot shooters/movers, but instead they have guys like Jr Smith and Richard Jefferson as offensive options, two guys who are good at creating shots with the ball in their hands but not so great at catching and shooting. Iman Shumpert is a good defender, but not a great shooter. James Jones is good shooter, but he's awful at defending.

That is what makes the Cavs so predictable in crunch time, Lebron is a high IQ guy he's gonna take the high percentage chance, if Lebron is doubled he's gonna kick the ball out, and there isn't a damn person on the Cavs that scares anyone. So what happens? Lebron drives and he works and works and works, and eventually he gets tired or the defense doubles him or takes away his lane, and then the Cav's have what? they have no other options or threats. Irving provides the same threat as Lebron... they are utterly predictable. Contrast that with Golden State, who give so many differently looks and are so multi-dimensional offensively, that they are near impossible to defend.

It's baffling to me that GMs haven't figured out how to build around the most gifted player in the NBA. I hope in the years to come the Cavs will compliment Lebron's skill set, instead of just adding talent for the sake of talent.

 

[hawkfan68]

I was just sharing my opinion. I know many of you don't agree with my take on LBJ. I'm cool with that and I'm glad most of you have been gracious about a differing point of view.

I think LBJ individually is the best player in the game today. I just don't believe he impacts his teammates in the same manner Michael Jordan did. That's all. I do agree with LBJ being more like Kobe. Kobe didn't make his teammates better either, IMO. He was a hell of a player though.

Here's an article about this very topic - http://nba.nbcsports.com/2013/05/16...ael-jordan-and-kobe-bryant-treated-teammates/.

 

[Hasselbeck]

I was just sharing my opinion. I know many of you don't agree with my take on LBJ. I'm cool with that and I'm glad most of you have been gracious about a differing point of view.

I think LBJ individually is the best player in the game today. I just don't believe he impacts his teammates in the same manner Michael Jordan did. That's all. I do agree with LBJ being more like Kobe. Kobe didn't make his teammates better either, IMO. He was a hell of a player though.

Here's an article about this very topic - http://nba.nbcsports.com/2013/05/16...ael-jordan-and-kobe-bryant-treated-teammates/.

Honest question, without looking, can you name the players LeBron took to the Finals in Cleveland before the last 2 Finals trips?

 

[hawkfan68]

I was just sharing my opinion. I know many of you don't agree with my take on LBJ. I'm cool with that and I'm glad most of you have been gracious about a differing point of view.

I think LBJ individually is the best player in the game today. I just don't believe he impacts his teammates in the same manner Michael Jordan did. That's all. I do agree with LBJ being more like Kobe. Kobe didn't make his teammates better either, IMO. He was a hell of a player though.

Here's an article about this very topic - http://nba.nbcsports.com/2013/05/16...ael-jordan-and-kobe-bryant-treated-teammates/.

Honest question, without looking, can you name the players LeBron took to the Finals in Cleveland before the last 2 Finals trips?

Here are some players off the top of my head from the 2007 Cavs team that went to the finals - IIgaukas, Gibson, Damon Jones, Drew Gooden, Shannon Brown but really that's not my point. Kobe took the Lakers to the finals...how did he help make those around him better? That's the point. I don't deny LBJ's star ability - He's the best player in the NBA. IMO, he just doesn't make those around him better.

 

[Crizilla]

Lebron is an insecure baby. At least Muhammed Ali backed up most of his "im the greatest talk" and handled himself more professionally. I hope Lebron and his fake hairline get swept by GS (just shave your head dude). I agree he doesn't make players around him better. I've been saying the same thing about Carmelo Anything too. Keep in mind Miami bailed him out pretty much (especially Ray Allen). He could easily have only 1 ring. That was a real team he played on in Miami. Lebron is a dominant force to the rim but he's just not a very good shooter. Both Kobe and Jordan > Lebron.

This is the fist time in awhile i've actually talked about the snooze fest NBA. It's completely pointless up until the conference finals. Such an imbalanced league. There's only 2-3 teams with a legit shot to win the title each year. The decision to put advertisements on the jerseys just goes to show you how much the NBA has fallen.

 

[Hawk-Lock]

Kevin Love out for game 3.

And IMO there is no question LeBron makes those around him better.

LeBron has come up short a lot in his career. Some of it is on him, some of it is due to really bad teams.

I give him a pass for his first finals appearance when he got swept by the Spurs in 2007. That team sucked and he was too young.

His first finals appearance with the Heat was simply a choke job. The Heat were much better than the Mavs. But LeBron arguably played some of the worst basketball of his career in that series.

He earned his first championship, the one where he defeated the Thunder. If I remember right, they lost game 1 in OKC, and then won the next 4.

He got bailed out by Ray Allen against the Spurs. But all the greats need some luck. No excuse for what happened the second time around when they lost to the Spurs. That was a pretty bad way to leave Miami.

I still think his worst defeat was the one no one talks about. When his Cavs lost to Dwight Howard's Orlando Magic in the ECF. Everything was set up for a LeBron vs Kobe finals, but obviously that never happened. While that Cleveland team wasn't all that great, neither were the Magic.

And I obviously give him a pass for last years finals. MJ wouldn't have won if Pippen and Rodman got hurt. No way was LeBron going to win without Irving and Love. And no pass this year if they lose to GS. This Cavs team is at full strength, well rested, and playing a GS team that has stumbled a few times on its way to the finals.

 

[Hawk-Lock]

We got a series. I think Cavs tie it up 2-2. Game 5 is going to be huge!

 

[hawknation2016]

Kevin Love is a net negative for the Cavs. If he starts on Friday, I say they lose.

 

[86Hawk]

There has been a lot of blowouts in the playoffs this year. Crazy. Cleveland might actually have a chance.

 

[Throwdown]

That block on Steph curry during the dead ball by Lebron, was beautiful. Curry thought he'd get a free pass to show out in Cleveland, 'bron let him know what was good.

 

[Uncle Si]

We got a series. I think Cavs tie it up 2-2. Game 5 is going to be huge!

I don't. I think the Warriors adjust, play with a bit more energy defensively and take a 3-1 lead. Cleveland was always going to win one game.

 

[Hasselbeck]

We got a series. I think Cavs tie it up 2-2. Game 5 is going to be huge!

Nah. Warriors will take the next two.

Last night wasn't a huge surprise, the Cavs season was on the line and the Warriors know they just need one in Cleveland for a successful road trip. Not to mention the Warriors have been awful in Game 3's all postseason, and really weren't great in them last playoff either.

The Love situation will be extremely interesting though. I can't see Lue starting him on Friday, but if he's able to play.. then what? We've seen how quickly the Warriors bench can go on a flurry.. the moment you set Love out there for 15-20 minutes or however long he'd play.. you just know the Warriors will attack him on defense again and again.