Geno looked crazy good tonight

[DarkVictory23]

I don't disdain him. I hope he does well. But he has to at least be good for more than a game or three and win a playoff game. He hasn't proved anything yet. I hope he can. The blind worship is gross.

The disdain you display is far more blind than any 'worship' anyone puts out there. Is Geno MVP talk putting the cart way ahead of the horse? Absolutely. But when's the last time you saw a Geno thread and didn't hop in to tell everyone how dim they are for thinking he wasn't going to be the death knell for the Seahawks?

He has won ZERO playoff games. Yes, I can hear it already "He didn't get a chance because he wasn't a starter" You are RIGHT. He wasn't even good enough to be the starter.

You are far, far too hung up on pre-Seahawks Geno. Nobody argues against Geno being a career backup or that he didn't live up to expectations in other spots.

But I don't care about all that. And, fortunately, I don't need to. Geno's been the Seahawks starter for two straight seasons, so I can focus on what he's done for this team. And when compared against the top 32 QBs of the last two seasons based on total snaps (I.E. the 'starters'), Geno is a top 10 QB when compared across the dimensions I mentioned (Success Rate, Passer Rating, QBR, and ANY/A).

For 2022-2023 combined, he has been #10 in Success Rate, #8 for Passer Rating, #11 for QBR, and #10 in ANY/A. (Overall, approximately the ninth best overall QB performance across the last two seasons when judged across those metrics).

Let’s do this exercise.

put Mahomes on the Seahawks and Geno on the Chiefs. Seahawks Super Bowl contender. Chiefs struggling to make it in. People can make excuses using every other position but if you straight across swapped Geno for Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert, Josh Allen etc etc etc WE are considered Super Bowl contenders WITH NO OTHER CHANGES and their odds drop significantly. A QB can do that.

No, no we absolutely are not, at least not for 2022-2023.

For one, the Kansas City offense last year was not much better than our offense.

In 2023: Scoring %, KC #10, Seahawks #11. Turnover rate, Seahawks #4, KC #26. Yards per drive, KC #8, Seahawks #12. Points per drive, KC #10, Seahawks #12. This was with a much more reliable running game than we had, and they also ALREADY HAD Patrick Mahomes! If you take away Mahomes defense last year (by giving him ours), no, he's not anywhere close to being a Super Bowl contender.

Then you follow it up by listing a bunch of players who already had better teams than ours and still didn't make the Super Bowl and you think they'd be Super Bowl contenders with LESS support when they didn't pull it off with more? Even you can see how illogical that argument is right?

 

[pittpnthrs]

Did he win it?

Steve Young

 

[JayhawkMike]

No, no we absolutely are not, at least not for 2022-2023.

For one, the Kansas City offense last year was not much better than our offense.

In 2023: Scoring %, KC #10, Seahawks #11. Turnover rate, Seahawks #4, KC #26. Yards per drive, KC #8, Seahawks #12. Points per drive, KC #10, Seahawks #12. This was with a much more reliable running game than we had, and they also ALREADY HAD Patrick Mahomes! If you take away Mahomes defense last year (by giving him ours), no, he's not anywhere close to being a Super Bowl contender.

Then you follow it up by listing a bunch of players who already had better teams than ours and still didn't make the Super Bowl and you think they'd be Super Bowl contenders with LESS support when they didn't pull it off with more? Even you can see how illogical that argument is right?

You have to be kidding me. Mahomes with DK and Lockett and JSN versus the crap at WR he had ALL of last year. And Geno with the crap KC WRs? Wow. Mahomes would have a HoF year and Geno would be 6-11.

 

[pittpnthrs]

You have to be kidding me. Mahomes with DK and Lockett and JSN versus the crap at WR he had ALL of last year. And Geno with the crap KC WRs? Wow. Mahomes would have a HoF year and Geno would be 6-11.

I realize Seattle's D was absolute garbage, but I tend to agree with Jayhawk. There is no short supply of weapons on the offensive side of the ball. QB's should be getting good numbers there. A great one like Mahomes,,,,good lord.

 

[DarkVictory23]

You have to be kidding me. Mahomes with DK and Lockett and JSN versus the crap at WR he had ALL of last year. And Geno with the crap KC WRs? Wow. Mahomes would have a HoF year and Geno would be 6-11.

You have to be kidding ME. KC had one of the top 3 defenses in the league last year. Do you not understand what kind of difference going from a #3 defense to like the number #28 defense makes in terms of success?

I realize Seattle's D was absolute garbage, but I tend to agree with Jayhawk. There is no short supply of weapons on the offensive side of the ball. QB's should be getting good numbers there. A great one like Mahomes,,,,good lord.

It's not just that our defense was absolute garbage, it's also that KC had one of the best defenses in the league.

And yes, I get that our WR corps is pretty great but a running game (KCs was better) and pass blocking (KC was #1 in Pass Block Win Rate, Seahawks were #25!) make a difference here, too. And can we not pretend that Travis Kelce isn't a really good TE?


This idea that we could just swap Patrick Mahomes into our team last year and he would have a 'HOF' season while Geno would immediately go down to '6-11' with one of the best defenses in the NFL is lacking in so much nuance as to be meaningless.

This is like football analysis by way of 'People' magazine.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Let’s do this exercise.

put Mahomes on the Seahawks and Geno on the Chiefs. Seahawks Super Bowl contender. Chiefs struggling to make it in. People can make excuses using every other position but if you straight across swapped Geno for Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert, Josh Allen etc etc etc WE are considered Super Bowl contenders WITH NO OTHER CHANGES and their odds drop significantly. A QB can do that.

Congratulations, you've proven that Patrick Mahomes (the best quarterback in the NFL) is better than Geno Smith. That's totally what people were trying to claim.

Also, Justin Herbert?



You mean THIS Justin Herbert? The one Geno Smith has statistically bested since the start of 2022?

Huh. Interesting.

 

[Maelstrom787]

You have to be kidding me. Mahomes with DK and Lockett and JSN versus the crap at WR he had ALL of last year. And Geno with the crap KC WRs? Wow. Mahomes would have a HoF year and Geno would be 6-11.

Now compare their offensive lines, playcallers, and defenses and tell me what happened to Patrick Mahomes when his supporting cast failed against Tampa Bay

 

[RiverDog]

I don't think it's asinine. There have been phenomenal players who had an AMAZING season whose team didn't even make the playoffs. *Cough, Cortez Kennedy 1992 MVP and the Seahawks had two wins all season.*

Tez would almost certainly not have gotten MVP if playoffs were included, because people would invariably penalize great individual players for the failures of their team if they bounced out of the playoffs early and give a disproportionate amount of credit to great individual players whose TEAMS went deep into the playoffs. I would not want to see playoffs included in this process.

Both the NBA and MLB vote on their MVP awards before the beginning of the post season, too, so I think it's pretty universal that an MVP performance means the regular season and is independent of the playoffs.

And @AROS, way to man up.

 

[Maelstrom787]

This team has plenty enough talent to be a playoff team. And he played a playoff game in the 2022 at Santa Clara. That would make that team.........a playoff team.

Obviously, they were literally in the playoffs, yes. But the meaning of the question was clearly asking about the non-Geno component. The supporting cast. Whether or not the team as a whole was a playoff-worthy team.

Most here in 2022 agreed they weren't. The only thing about that team that was above average was... Geno and the passing game.

Does this team have the talent to make the playoffs and compete? I don't know. On paper, sure, but we can make that argument every year. We'll need to see how each unit actually performs. The passing game has been this teams best performing facet for 2 years straight.

I get it man, Geno is w/out fault in your eyes, we've been down this road several times. I think he's a little above average, you seem to think he's elite.
We've been able to agree to disagree in the past, no reason we can't now. He's not clutch IN MY OPINION. When I see him carry the team, and WIN a playoff game, I'll crow up big time. Just like I did his first year as a starter. He shocked me and I was happy to admit I was wrong about him.
He's good enough to get us to the playoffs. Now......is he good enough to go deep in the playoffs? We'll see. I don't think he is, and I hope to be very wrong.

I would just like to illustrate how insanely bad faith a lot of the responses here are becoming.

The response here is not reasonable in any way, shape, or form. It contains no rebuttal, no attempt at actually discussing the topic or responding to the content of the message, nothing of the sort.

This was not an attempt to foster discussion or add to a discussion. It was, frankly, trolling.

It includes an incomplete drive-by strawman of "you seem to think he's elite" in response to a discussion about the supporting cast of the team.

I have no idea how or why you continue with this routine where you antagonize people in threads by repetitively posting the same points and trying to stifle the expansion of discussions before proceeding to act like you're under some sort of siege when you're actually engaged by someone else in response to what you're saying.

Why even make the point if when presented the opportunity to expand upon it or defend it, you do the equivalent of cowering in the corner and waving a stick at whoever replies while simultaneously misrepresenting and sneering at their points?

 

[Maelstrom787]

They should be. Good QB's elevate their team and find ways to win even when the system breaks down. Geno isn't that.

Explain the following:

Philip Rivers missing the playoffs in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017

Matthew Stafford missing the playoffs in 2009, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017, 2018 and 2020

Matt Ryan missing the playoffs in 2009, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018, 2019, and 2020

Drew Brees missing the playoffs in 2007, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2015, and 2016

Ben Roethlisberger in 2006, 2009, 2012, 2013, and in his best statistical year of 2018 where he threw for over 5100 yards and 34 TDs.

How about Justin Herbert missing the postseason in... every single season except 2022 where he and the Chargers got bounced instantly?

How about Russell Wilson every year since he left?


Are these quarterbacks all simply not good enough to elevate their team while quarterbacks like Nick Foles, Jimmy Garoppolo, and Jared Goff are the type of studs a team needs to win in the postseason?

 

[pittpnthrs]

running game (KCs was better) and pass blocking (KC was #1 in Pass Block Win Rate

Creed Humphrey. *hides*

Lol

 

[pittpnthrs]

Explain the following:

Philip Rivers missing the playoffs in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017

Matthew Stafford missing the playoffs in 2009, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017, 2018 and 2020

Matt Ryan missing the playoffs in 2009, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018, 2019, and 2020

Drew Brees missing the playoffs in 2007, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2015, and 2016

Ben Roethlisberger in 2006, 2009, 2012, 2013, and in his best statistical year of 2018 where he threw for over 5100 yards and 34 TDs.

How about Justin Herbert missing the postseason in... every single season except 2022 where he and the Chargers got bounced instantly?

How about Russell Wilson every year since he left?


Are these quarterbacks all simply not good enough to elevate their team while quarterbacks like Nick Foles, Jimmy Garoppolo, and Jared Goff are the type of studs a team needs to win in the postseason?

Phillip Rivers - Top 10 all time in passing yards, completed passes, TD's, and 4th quarter comebacks. Will be a 1st ballot HoFer. All that despite playing for the cursed Chargers. I'd say he elevated his teams many, many times.

Matt Stafford - Played on terrible Detroit teams and still had a couple seasons where they were 10-6 and 11-5 and then won a Super Bowl with the Rams. I would say he elevated his teams too and is a way better QB than Geno.

Matt Ryan - Took the Falcons to the Super Bowl and made them relevant. Nuff said.

Drew Brees - Are you serious? Look at the Saints since he retired.

Roetthlisberger - Won 2 Super Bowls despite having the AFC's version of Pete Carroll. HoFer. Definitely elevated his teams.

Herbert - Always thought he was overrated and he's doomed playing for the Chargers.

Russell Wilson - Lolol. Guy carried Seahawk teams for years. Don't know why you even mentioned him.

Just because these QB's haven't won every year doesn't mean they still didn't elevate their teams and players,,,,,something Geno has never done. Not even sure of the point of your post to be honest. You know every QB you listed is much more talented than Geno, but your determined to die by the sword I guess.

 

[Ad Hawk]

Creed Humphrey. *hides*

Lol

So... are you implying that if we'd traded for Humphrey instead of Eskridge, Geno may have had a better line and more success (i.e., making the playoffs)?

Cool.

 

[Torc]

Phillip Rivers - Top 10 all time in passing yards, completed passes, TD's, and 4th quarter comebacks. Will be a 1st ballot HoFer. All that despite playing for the cursed Chargers. I'd say he elevated his teams many, many times.

Matt Stafford - Played on terrible Detroit teams and still had a couple seasons where they were 10-6 and 11-5 and then won a Super Bowl with the Rams. I would say he elevated his teams too and is a way better QB than Geno.

Matt Ryan - Took the Falcons to the Super Bowl and made them relevant. Nuff said.

Drew Brees - Are you serious? Look at the Saints since he retired.

Roetthlisberger - Won 2 Super Bowls despite having the AFC's version of Pete Carroll. HoFer. Definitely elevated his teams.

Herbert - Always thought he was overrated and he's doomed playing for the Chargers.

Russell Wilson - Lolol. Guy carried Seahawk teams for years. Don't know why you even mentioned him.

Just because these QB's haven't won every year doesn't mean they still didn't elevate their teams and players,,,,,something Geno has never done. Not even sure of the point of your post to be honest. You know every QB you listed is much more talented than Geno, but your determined to die by the sword I guess.

I would argue that Geno DID elevate his team in '22 and '23. A historically bad defense at points, yet he still managed to get them to the playoffs in one year and within a game of the playoffs the next. The same team that went 7-10 with Wilson in '21 improved by two games with Geno starting.

Oh - that Stealers QB only won one super bowl.

 

[Ad Hawk]

...

Oh - that Stealers QB only won one super bowl.

Word.

 

[DarkVictory23]

They should be. Good QB's elevate their team and find ways to win even when the system breaks down. Geno isn't that.

I kind of glided past this point earlier but wanted to circle back and make a point here: No, they absolutely shouldn't, and the problem is too much NFL discussion treats wins like they are a QB stat when they are not.

I'd like to use Patrick Mahomes 2023 season to illustrate this point.

Let's be clear right at the beginning: Mahomes is going to go down as one of the top all-time NFL QBs. That is certain.

However, in 2023, Mahomes--who still had a good season--did not put in a top 5 performance. He was #7 in Success Rate, #8 in QBR, #14 in Passer Rating, and #15 (!) in ANY/A. Clearly, top half of the league but in no measurement was he top 5 and in most he wasn't particularly close to being top 5.

The Chiefs offense, in line with its QB, was good but not great. Near top 10, but not close to being top 5. (I included the statistical proof in a previous post.)


So how did Mahomes 'elevate' his team with his elite-ness? Well, he just happened to be on the same team as an elite defense and an elite-in-certain aspects special teams. And the storyline becomes you need a top 5 QB because Mahomes is usually that and everyone just ignores that, in this case, Mahomes happened to be the best player on what turned out to be the third best unit on his team.

But, you know, I guess he was just a top-5 cheerleader on the sidelines?


No, wins are not a QB stat. QBs get too much credit for most wins and too much blame for most losses. We just happen to know their faces better than most players on a team. Like I said, football analysis 'People'-magazine style.

 

[Torc]

I think I would argue that Mahomes did what Mahomes does. He refused to lose, despite his receivers leading the league in drops (as a group). That was especially true in the playoffs. Yes, their defense was elite and it saved them. Oddly, in some ways Mahomes had his best season.....but not statistically.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Phillip Rivers - Top 10 all time in passing yards, completed passes, TD's, and 4th quarter comebacks. Will be a 1st ballot HoFer. All that despite playing for the cursed Chargers. I'd say he elevated his teams many, many times.

Matt Stafford - Played on terrible Detroit teams and still had a couple seasons where they were 10-6 and 11-5 and then won a Super Bowl with the Rams. I would say he elevated his teams too and is a way better QB than Geno.

Matt Ryan - Took the Falcons to the Super Bowl and made them relevant. Nuff said.

Drew Brees - Are you serious? Look at the Saints since he retired.

Roetthlisberger - Won 2 Super Bowls despite having the AFC's version of Pete Carroll. HoFer. Definitely elevated his teams.

Herbert - Always thought he was overrated and he's doomed playing for the Chargers.

Russell Wilson - Lolol. Guy carried Seahawk teams for years. Don't know why you even mentioned him.

Just because these QB's haven't won every year doesn't mean they still didn't elevate their teams and players,,,,,something Geno has never done. Not even sure of the point of your post to be honest. You know every QB you listed is much more talented than Geno, but your determined to die by the sword I guess.

But this is my point - how in the would can you possibly say that Geno Smith hasn't elevated the past 2 Seahawks teams when in both years every single facet of the teams play outside of the passing game performed significantly worse than league average?

Seriously. Bad defenses, bad offensive line performances, and bad rushing games constantly for those 2 years - yet they got to winning records in both years.

You can say those other guys elevated their teams - but to what? The same exact goddamn thing Geno Smith has while having anchors tied to his ankles?

Ben's best year couldn't even get his team to the playoffs.

Philip Rivers might have been on cursed teams, but is your contention not that great quarterbacks are able to carry their teams past that sort of barrier?

Drew Brees? Sure, look at them before he retired, too! One of the best modern quarterbacks ever with a highly regarded coach aaaaand... yeah, his teams had losing records in 5 of his first 10 years in New Orleans.

Matt Ryan missed the playoffs as much as he made them and had as many losing seasons as he did winning seasons.

Russell Wilson elevated his teams, yet what happened when he was given a team that performed as badly on defense as Seattle has for 2 years straight? You bet your ass they were 9-7. What happened when he suddenly was expected to do it all himself? You bet your ass he ruined his own career.

I'm not saying Geno is better than any individual quarterback on that list. What I AM saying is that this idea that great quarterbacks can elevate their team to genuine postseason contention while dealing with the type of supporting cast that Geno has for 2 years is simply not a realistic expectation.

It doesn't work like that for anyone, even demigods like Mahomes and Brady. They demanded supporting casts and got them. Mahomes has the best line and TE, and Brady got largely whatever he needed.

There is no way a team with a terrible defense, a bad running game, and a bottom 5 offensive line should achieve a winning record, especially while being in a difficult division. Seattle did. Twice. You're running out of places that aren't the passing game to explain where the wins came from - and Geno Smith led that passing game.

 

[knownone]

The Seahawks' defense and offensive line were in the bottom ten in back-to-back seasons. Geno's tied for the most game-winning drives during that stretch. He set the NFL record for most go-ahead TDs in the final minute of regulation or overtime last year—a season in which he missed two games and battled injuries for 12 weeks.

So he's not Patrick Mahomes. Who cares? He's already proven he can be in the MVP conversations—as evidenced by his MVP vote in 2022. And at the end of the day, whether he's as good at elevating his team as some other greater QBs doesn't matter. All that matters is what the team does this season.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Oh - that Stealers QB only won one super bowl.

Beat the Seahawks and Cardinals. He has two. Unless your meaning Bill Leavy beat the Seahawks. That I can get behind.