Geno looked crazy good tonight

[Maelstrom787]

Logic and reason? My logic and reason for my opinions about Geno is that regardless of any numbers and stats, he's never been an above .500 winning QB and he's never won a post season game. My opinion will change if he ever improves upon those things, but he has to prove that he can first. Its pretty black and white for me. All I ever hear from everybody else is excuses as to why he never succeeds. Its never his fault seemingly.

This would be a reasonable point of view if wins were a quarterback stat, but they're not.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Yes

I'll bite - which one?

 

[SoulfishHawk]

This team has plenty enough talent to be a playoff team. And he played a playoff game in the 2022 at Santa Clara. That would make that team.........a playoff team.

 

[Maelstrom787]

This team has plenty enough talent to be a playoff team. And he played a playoff game in the 2022 at Santa Clara. That would make that team.........a playoff team.

Obviously, they were literally in the playoffs, yes. But the meaning of the question was clearly asking about the non-Geno component. The supporting cast. Whether or not the team as a whole was a playoff-worthy team.

Most here in 2022 agreed they weren't. The only thing about that team that was above average was... Geno and the passing game.

Does this team have the talent to make the playoffs and compete? I don't know. On paper, sure, but we can make that argument every year. We'll need to see how each unit actually performs. The passing game has been this teams best performing facet for 2 years straight.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I get it man, Geno is w/out fault in your eyes, we've been down this road several times. I think he's a little above average, you seem to think he's elite.
We've been able to agree to disagree in the past, no reason we can't now. He's not clutch IN MY OPINION. When I see him carry the team, and WIN a playoff game, I'll crow up big time. Just like I did his first year as a starter. He shocked me and I was happy to admit I was wrong about him.
He's good enough to get us to the playoffs. Now......is he good enough to go deep in the playoffs? We'll see. I don't think he is, and I hope to be very wrong.

 

[JayhawkMike]

Has Geno ever been on a PO caliber team....

The better question is WHY doesn't having Geno make a team playoff caliber?

 

[pmedic920]

I don’t understand why Niners fans are on our board either

Probably because they get treated better here than at home.

Have you ever lurked their boards?

 

[pmedic920]

I don't think it's asinine. There have been phenomenal players who had an AMAZING season whose team didn't even make the playoffs. *Cough, Cortez Kennedy 1992 MVP and the Seahawks had two wins all season.*

Tez would almost certainly not have gotten MVP if playoffs were included, because people would invariably penalize great individual players for the failures of their team if they bounced out of the playoffs early and give a disproportionate amount of credit to great individual players whose TEAMS went deep into the playoffs. I would not want to see playoffs included in this process.

Did he win it?

 

[pmedic920]

I want to be VERY wrong on Geno. Winning is the only thing I care about, regardless of who is under center. He's good, I just have the opinion he's not great.

But never forget…

It doesn’t take a “great” quarterback to win the Super Bowl.

 

[GeekHawk]

But never forget…

It doesn’t take a “great” quarterback to win the Super Bowl.

Eli Manning agrees. In fact, his being the QB on two winning Superbowl teams pretty much undoes every single "Geno can't do it" post in this thread and everywhere else on this board.

 

[keasley45]

I get it man, Geno is w/out fault in your eyes, we've been down this road several times. I think he's a little above average, you seem to think he's elite.
We've been able to agree to disagree in the past, no reason we can't now. He's not clutch IN MY OPINION. When I see him carry the team, and WIN a playoff game, I'll crow up big time. Just like I did his first year as a starter. He shocked me and I was happy to admit I was wrong about him.
He's good enough to get us to the playoffs. Now......is he good enough to go deep in the playoffs? We'll see. I don't think he is, and I hope to be very wrong.

how about we all just see what he can do when his supporting cast across the ball, his run game, and his o-line arent among the worst in the league - which is what they've been his first 2 years in the league.

Some want to grade him as if his play occurs in a vaccuum and 'if he were really any good' he'd be able to bring the team to contention regardless - even though its been proven by statistical fact and comparison against every other QB in the league that NO QB in the NFL has been able to see the success that he has with other parts of the team in those areas being as bad as ours were.

To that point, i've even invited critics to find ANY example of a QB who in recent seasons has done more with less in terms of his own individual success (finished between 10 and 13 overall as a passer his first 2 seasons, in the face of his critics believing he was the worst starter in the league going into 2022) and team success with the broken parts i mentioned and there were no takers. Of course there wouldnt be, becuase a quick look makes it obvious that Geno sits alone in that regard. Disagree? Cite the example. Simple.

fact is, there are MANY reasons why he should be much worse than he's been. O'line, running game, defense, play calling are at the top of the list. All were atrocious. Thats not debatable. There are many reasons we shouldnt have even sniffed the playoffs the last 2 years - see the avove.

But there are few reasons for critics to point to to justify that he should have actually been better than his perfromance has indicated? If you disagree, then why so?

Great rushing attack? it often elevates average QB play. NOPE

Great o-line? It often gives a slow-to-process QB enough time to look really good. NOPE. In fact, every evaluation of Geno i've seen cites his ability to get rid of the ball quickly as one of his greatest assets.

Great Defense? Gives an average 'game manager' type of QB more chances to succeed, and keeps the game within striking distance. NOPE.

In what way did he underperform so agregeously that he gets the 'average at best' label?

Mahomes - best playcaller in the league. solid defense. solid rushing attack

Brady - ALWAYS solid pass pro. ALWAYS top notch play calling. And he played with quite a few HOFs across the ball from him and catching passes from him.

Rodgers - ALWAYS top play caller. Perennially good run support and pass pro. And when his pass pro failed and run gme resembled anything close to ours has the last few years, he looked nothing like the AR on the way to Canton

Stafford - Was the definition of the really good QB who never accomplished anything until he was on a team with a competent play caller, solid run game and defense in the same year.

And on, and on...

My point is, great QB play is an individual skill, but the TEAM aspect of it can make a good QB look great, or like he should be riding the pine.

The TEAM can make a great QB look good if its faiking(Stafford is the best contemporary example).

And the TEAM can make an average to below average QB look good - Dilfer, Tannehill, etc.

But in NO UNIVERSE can a BAD team make an AVERAGE QB look above average. And Geno has ranked above average statistically over the last 2 years, bordering good to great for long stretches of that time. By that basic logic, Geno is somehwere better than solid.

So the math doesnt add up to the dude just being 'OK'. How much better than average he can be remains to be seen. But the ceiling there is for him and the team to own. Just as it contributed to him topping out at 10 and 13, with a 27 to 32 ranked O-line, rushing attack and defense, it can logically take him from 10-13th best in the league to top 10 or approaching top 5-7. Shoot, the dude was already top 10 with crap around him.

Dont get the wanting to slap the 'average' label on him. I mean, i do... but I dont.

 

[CallMeADawg]

Well said ^^

 

[SoulfishHawk]

But never forget…

It doesn’t take a “great” quarterback to win the Super Bowl.

I laugh, but it's a very good point. Dilfer, Williams, etc. Def. not great QB's.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

how about we all just see what he can do when his supporting cast across the ball, his run game, and his o-line arent among the worst in the league - which is what they've been his first 2 years in the league.

Some want to grade him as if his play occurs in a vaccuum and 'if he were really any good' he'd be able to bring the team to contention regardless - even though its been proven by statistical fact and comparison against every other QB in the league that NO QB in the NFL has been able to see the success that he has with other parts of the team in those areas being as bad as ours were.

To that point, i've even invited critics to find ANY example of a QB who in recent seasons has done more with less in terms of his own individual success (finished between 10 and 13 overall as a passer his first 2 seasons, in the face of his critics believing he was the worst starter in the league going into 2022) and team success with the broken parts i mentioned and there were no takers. Of course there wouldnt be, becuase a quick look makes it obvious that Geno sits alone in that regard. Disagree? Cite the example. Simple.

fact is, there are MANY reasons why he should be much worse than he's been. O'line, running game, defense, play calling are at the top of the list. All were atrocious. Thats not debatable. There are many reasons we shouldnt have even sniffed the playoffs the last 2 years - see the avove.

But there are few reasons for critics to point to to justify that he should have actually been better than his perfromance has indicated? If you disagree, then why so?

Great rushing attack? it often elevates average QB play. NOPE

Great o-line? It often gives a slow-to-process QB enough time to look really good. NOPE. In fact, every evaluation of Geno i've seen cites his ability to get rid of the ball quickly as one of his greatest assets.

Great Defense? Gives an average 'game manager' type of QB more chances to succeed, and keeps the game within striking distance. NOPE.

In what way did he underperform so agregeously that he gets the 'average at best' label?

Mahomes - best playcaller in the league. solid defense. solid rushing attack

Brady - ALWAYS solid pass pro. ALWAYS top notch play calling. And he played with quite a few HOFs across the ball from him and catching passes from him.

Rodgers - ALWAYS top play caller. Perennially good run support and pass pro. And when his pass pro failed and run gme resembled anything close to ours has the last few years, he looked nothing like the AR on the way to Canton

Stafford - Was the definition of the really good QB who never accomplished anything until he was on a team with a competent play caller, solid run game and defense in the same year.

And on, and on...

My point is, great QB play is an individual skill, but the TEAM aspect of it can make a good QB look great, or like he should be riding the pine.

The TEAM can make a great QB look good if its faiking(Stafford is the best contemporary example).

And the TEAM can make an average to below average QB look good - Dilfer, Tannehill, etc.

But in NO UNIVERSE can a BAD team make an AVERAGE QB look above average. And Geno has ranked above average statistically over the last 2 years, bordering good to great for long stretches of that time. By that basic logic, Geno is somehwere better than solid.

So the math doesnt add up to the dude just being 'OK'. How much better than average he can be remains to be seen. But the ceiling there is for him and the team to own. Just as it contributed to him topping out at 10 and 13, with a 27 to 32 ranked O-line, rushing attack and defense, it can logically take him from 10-13th best in the league to top 10 or approaching top 5-7. Shoot, the dude was already top 10 with crap around him.

Dont get the wanting to slap the 'average' label on him. I mean, i do... but I dont.

Very well said.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

Our new offense is going to score a lot of points this year, and the OC is going to field a lot of HC offers.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Grubb is legit. And not just because I'm a UW fan.

 

[Double Tribble]

Eli Manning agrees. In fact, his being the QB on two winning Superbowl teams pretty much undoes every single "Geno can't do it" post in this thread and everywhere else on this board.

Cherry picking outliers is easy. Historically however, the majority of sb winning qb's are top 5. Can a top 15 qb do it? Sure. But very rarely. Why not stack the odds in our favor and try to get/draft/develop a top 5 qb instead of settling all the time?

Reclamation projects like Geno and Howell usually are just wastes of time. They tease us with flashes of brilliance here and there but aren't able to maintain it. Three years from now we'll still be yammering endlessly about this when we should be cheering on a young rookie qbotf on a rookie contract like we did with Russ. Tiresome.

 

[chris98251]

Rypien, Williams, Dilfer, Foles, if it was so rare there are 4 out of the current number of Super Bowls played, that's not all that rare.

 

[JayhawkMike]

Let’s do this exercise.

put Mahomes on the Seahawks and Geno on the Chiefs. Seahawks Super Bowl contender. Chiefs struggling to make it in. People can make excuses using every other position but if you straight across swapped Geno for Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert, Josh Allen etc etc etc WE are considered Super Bowl contenders WITH NO OTHER CHANGES and their odds drop significantly. A QB can do that.

 

[pittpnthrs]

This would be a reasonable point of view if wins were a quarterback stat, but they're not.

They should be. Good QB's elevate their team and find ways to win even when the system breaks down. Geno isn't that.