Former Head Coach Brian Flores is suing NFL, 3 other teams

[Aircrew]

From everything I've read, the only conclusions I've come away with are:

1. John Elway thinks it's permissable to have a few chardonnay's before an interview.
2. Stephen Ross is alledgedly a s**tbag owner who's willing to throw games.
3. The New York Football Giants had already chosen their guy and were just going through the Rooney Rule motions.
4. Bill Belichick is a stereotypical "old guy" when it comes to texting.

I've read nothing that points to racism. Cronyism? Sure. Good 'ol boy system? You bet. Was his firing from Miami not deserved? Arguably, yes. However, unless some other evidence comes out, I don't think Coach Flores' case is very strong.

 

[getnasty]

You know Bill Belicheck send that text message on purpose. Finally getting back at the Gaints for the SB loses.

 

[WmHBonney]

Anyone who thinks there isn't any racism involved here is either REALLY naive or, racist.

Bullshit. The Giants wanted Daboll. Most likely, because he helped develop Josh Allen and the Giants are hoping that he can do the same with Danny Dimes. They were forced to conduct token interviews with other candidates because of a stupid rule. You don't want to waste your time with meaningless interviews? Then get rid of the Rooney rule. I've never understood how that rule is even legal. You cannot not hire a guy because of the color of his skin. That is how it should be. So how is it legal that you MUST interview someone due to the color of his skin? Stupidity.

 

[chris98251]

From everything I've read, the only conclusions I've come away with are:

1. John Elway thinks it's permissable to have a few chardonnay's before an interview.
2. Stephen Ross is alledgedly a s**tbag owner who's willing to throw games.
3. The New York Football Giants had already chosen their guy and were just going through the Rooney Rule motions.
4. Bill Belichick is a stereotypical "old guy" when it comes to texting.

I've read nothing that points to racism. Cronyism? Sure. Good 'ol boy system? You bet. Was his firing from Miami not deserved? Arguably, yes. However, unless some other evidence comes out, I don't think Coach Flores' case is very strong.

Good ole boy system, bunch of rich white guys who are ingrained with systemic racism and power mongers who determine who should be allowed to touch their stuff and what they look like.

Nope not racist at all.

 

[TwistedHusky]

It depends if it goes to discovery.

Because that is where the damage to the NFL lies.

But if you can show a pattern of behavior that does not align with a reasonable expected/outcome result - you are probably going to get to go to trial.

Then it is on jury.

The pattern is pretty obvious, especially after what Hue Jackson disclosed.

If owners are primarily hiring black coaches with the expectation to set them up to fail, then using that failure as an excuse for not hiring those black coaches? You can certainly show a pattern of discriminatory behavior.

Because it is one thing to hire a coach on a terrible team, give them a chance to succeed and then fire them when they fail.

But if you are actively hiring black coaches to take teams you set up to fail, force them to fail, and then fire them? It is going to fit that pattern of limiting opportunities for black coaches or only using them in circumstances that would limit their hiring later.

Because you aren't letting them succeed, you tilting the floor, then hiring a non-black coach once you have the outcome (tanking) you were looking for.

Certainly, the practice with Flores and now Hue Jackson, makes the reason Caldwell was let go less of a mystery. They probably wanted him to fail, he succeeded and they shcanned him. But if black coaches are only being allowed to be the captain of ships they want steered into the rocks? That might be a problem.



You don't have to prove anything. There have been sexual discrimination lawsuits won just on the basis of the promotion rates of women vs men in the org. If you can show there is a #s discrepancy, and show that it is statistically unlikely - you can go to trial and probably win...because this already happened in sexual discrimination lawsuits.

 

[sdog1981]

It depends if it goes to discovery.

Because that is where the damage to the NFL lies.

The NFL will do everything they can to prevent this. I hope Flores is willing to wait the years needed to get to trial, just for public disclosure of NFL records.

 

[chris98251]

It depends if it goes to discovery.

Because that is where the damage to the NFL lies.

The NFL will do everything they can to prevent this. I hope Flores is willing to wait the years needed to get to trial, just for public disclosure of NFL records.

Congress is in the process of interviewing shortly many in the NFL due to harassment and discrimination just in the Commanders or whatever organization, this on the back of that may change the NFL forever and make that antitrust exemption or whatever it is go away so that the NFL is able to be viewed openly.

The Shild is rusting and getting holes poked in it, throw in the Kroenke and Gruden suits and boom.

 

[sdog1981]

It depends if it goes to discovery.

Because that is where the damage to the NFL lies.

The NFL will do everything they can to prevent this. I hope Flores is willing to wait the years needed to get to trial, just for public disclosure of NFL records.

Congress is in the process of interviewing shortly many in the NFL due to harassment and discrimination just in the Commanders or whatever organization, this on the back of that may change the NFL forever and make that antitrust exemption or whatever it is go away so that the NFL is able to be viewed openly.

The Shild is rusting and getting holes poked in it, throw in the Kroenke and Gruden suits and boom.

MLB was the undisputed king of labor for almost 100 years before they got beat up in court and had to allow free agency in 1972.

The NFL appears to be facing a similar situation with these two cases.

 

[ivotuk]

Matt Hasselbeck has Brian Flores back. :2thumbs:

Was roommates at Boston College with Tim Hasselbeck. Matthew calls him "A Leader of Men"

Matt Hasselbeck on Brian Flores and Tom Brady

Matt Hasselbeck joins us for an abbreviated Hasselbeck Show today since he is in Dallas doing some charity work.

He discusses his personal relationship with Brian Flores and reflects on Tom Brady's career.

https://sports.mynorthwest.com/category ... 13228c4&n=

 

[ivotuk]

Matthew Hasselbeck: "Since 2001, 6th Round Quarterbacks have had a better winning percentage than 1st Round Quarterbacks."

(He then goes on to say "Tom Brady is responsible for most of that....I'm a distant, distant 2nd")

 

[Aircrew]

From everything I've read, the only conclusions I've come away with are:

1. John Elway thinks it's permissable to have a few chardonnay's before an interview.
2. Stephen Ross is alledgedly a s**tbag owner who's willing to throw games.
3. The New York Football Giants had already chosen their guy and were just going through the Rooney Rule motions.
4. Bill Belichick is a stereotypical "old guy" when it comes to texting.

I've read nothing that points to racism. Cronyism? Sure. Good 'ol boy system? You bet. Was his firing from Miami not deserved? Arguably, yes. However, unless some other evidence comes out, I don't think Coach Flores' case is very strong.

Good ole boy system, bunch of rich white guys who are ingrained with systemic racism and power mongers who determine who should be allowed to touch their stuff and what they look like.

Nope not racist at all.

Your layers of racism (congrats on that one!), assumption and speculation could make a cake.

I'm talking about proof. From what I've read thus far, there isn't anything that proves racism was involved in anything Coach Flores has cited in his lawsuit. I'm sure this will get dragged out for the next year or more, but at this point I think his case is weak. I'm really interested to see if more evidence comes out that validates his allegations. If he's PROVEN correct, I hope it burns the league down to it's foundation.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

From everything I've read, the only conclusions I've come away with are:

1. John Elway thinks it's permissable to have a few chardonnay's before an interview.
2. Stephen Ross is alledgedly a s**tbag owner who's willing to throw games.
3. The New York Football Giants had already chosen their guy and were just going through the Rooney Rule motions.
4. Bill Belichick is a stereotypical "old guy" when it comes to texting.

I've read nothing that points to racism. Cronyism? Sure. Good 'ol boy system? You bet. Was his firing from Miami not deserved? Arguably, yes. However, unless some other evidence comes out, I don't think Coach Flores' case is very strong.

Good ole boy system, bunch of rich white guys who are ingrained with systemic racism and power mongers who determine who should be allowed to touch their stuff and what they look like.

Nope not racist at all.

Your layers of racism (congrats on that one!), assumption and speculation could make a cake.

I'm talking about proof. From what I've read thus far, there isn't anything that proves racism was involved in anything Coach Flores has cited in his lawsuit. I'm sure this will get dragged out for the next year or more, but at this point I think his case is weak. I'm really interested to see if more evidence comes out that validates his allegations. If he's PROVEN correct, I hope it burns the league down to it's foundation.

I concur.

Even if true, the tanking for Tua situation cannot be considered racist if Ross would have plausibly asked a white guy, new HC hire, to do the same thing.

And as to the racism bias in HC, Bryon Leftwich is pulling out from Jags search even though his hire would double the number of currently employed Black coaches. Leftwich is doing this because of his dislike for Baalke, which doesn't appear to be race-related.

 

[RiverDog]

The New York Giants, John Elway, and Dolphins' owner Stephen Ross have all made statements in response to Brian Flores' accusations.

First the Giants:

February 3, 2022

Brian Flores has raised serious issues in the filing of his complaint. The specific claims against the Giants and Mr. Flores' allegations about the legitimacy of his candidacy for our head coach position are disturbing and simply false.

After we interviewed six exceptional and diverse candidates, the decision on who we would hire as head coach was made on the evening of January 28, one day after Mr. Flores spent an entire day in our offices going through his second interview for the position, meeting with ownership and other staff members, and receiving a tour of our facility. (See the itinerary below). There is additional concrete and objective evidence to substantiate we did not make our decision until the evening of the 28th.

The allegation that the Giants' decision had been made prior to Friday evening, January 28, is false. And to base that allegation on a text exchange with Bill Belichick in which he ultimately states that he "thinks" Brian Daboll would get the job is irresponsible. The text exchange occurred the day before Coach Daboll's in-person interview even took place. Giants' ownership would never hire a head coach based only on a 20-minute zoom interview, which is all that Mr. Daboll had at that point.

In addition, Mr. Belichick does not speak for and has no affiliation with the Giants. Mr. Belichick's text exchange provides no insight into what actually transpired during our head coaching search.

It has been well documented how much research and due diligence we did on Mr. Flores as it related to his candidacy. John Mara called Mr. Flores two days after he was dismissed in Miami. Mr. Mara expressed to Mr. Flores in that January 12 call that once we had our new general manager in place, we would begin the process of hiring our head coach and we wanted to meet with Mr. Flores because we considered him a serious candidate for the position. Mr. Mara and Mr. Flores then had their first formal conversation in a 25-30 minute zoom call on January 18 (at Mr. Flores' request) to further discuss his candidacy.

In between those initial conversations and Mr. Flores' in-person interview on January 27, there were several other communications between Mr. Flores and members of our organization. This included a dinner with our newly hired general manager, Joe Schoen, the night before Mr. Flores's in-person interview. The consensus from within the Giants organization after this dinner remained that Mr. Flores was an outstanding candidate, and we looked forward to sitting down with him in person the next day.

Our hiring process and, most certainly, our consideration of Mr. Flores was serious and genuine. We are disappointed to learn that Mr. Flores was under the mistaken impression the job had already been awarded.

In his CBS interview yesterday, Mr. Flores was asked if "clubs have the right to hire the person they think is the best qualified for the job or the person they feel is right for them?" Mr. Flores responded "They do. That's very reasonable to me . . .". That is exactly what we did.

We hired Brian Daboll as our head coach at the conclusion of an open and thorough interview process. No decision was made, and no job offer was extended, until the evening of January 28, a full day after Mr. Flores' in-person interview and day-long visit to the Giants.

https://www.giants.com/news/statement-f ... february-3

John Elway:

While I was not planning to respond publicly to the false and defamatory claims by Brian Flores, I could not be silent any longer with my character, integrity and professionalism being attacked,” Elway said in a statement issued on Thursday. “I took Coach Flores very seriously as a candidate for our head coaching position in 2019 and enjoyed our three-and-a-half hour interview with him. Along with the rest of our group, I was prepared, ready and fully engaged during the entire interview as Brian shared his experience and vision for our team. . . . It’s unfortunate and shocking to learn for the first time this week that Brian felt differently about our interview with him.

“For Brian to make an assumption about my appearance and state of mind early that morning was subjective, hurtful and just plain wrong. If I appeared ‘disheveled,’ as he claimed, it was because we had flown in during the middle of the night — immediately following another interview in Denver — and were going on a few hours of sleep to meet the only window provided to us. . . . I interviewed Brian in good faith, giving him the same consideration and opportunity as every other candidate for our head coaching position in 2019.”

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/sports/ ... m/3534064/

And finally Stephen Ross:

"I am a man or honor and integrity and cannot let [the allegations] stand without responding,” Ross said. “I take great personal exception to these malicious attacks, and the truth must be known. His allegations are false, malicious and defamatory. We understand there are media reports stating that the NFL intends to investigate his claims, and we will cooperate fully. I welcome that investigation and I am eager to defend my personal integrity, and the integrity and values of the entire Miami Dolphins organization, from these baseless, unfair and disparaging claims.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... an-flores/

It's interesting that both Elway and Ross used the word "defamatory" in their responses, perhaps an indication that they may file a counter suit.

This is going to get real ugly.

 

[chris98251]

From everything I've read, the only conclusions I've come away with are:

1. John Elway thinks it's permissable to have a few chardonnay's before an interview.
2. Stephen Ross is alledgedly a s**tbag owner who's willing to throw games.
3. The New York Football Giants had already chosen their guy and were just going through the Rooney Rule motions.
4. Bill Belichick is a stereotypical "old guy" when it comes to texting.

I've read nothing that points to racism. Cronyism? Sure. Good 'ol boy system? You bet. Was his firing from Miami not deserved? Arguably, yes. However, unless some other evidence comes out, I don't think Coach Flores' case is very strong.

Good ole boy system, bunch of rich white guys who are ingrained with systemic racism and power mongers who determine who should be allowed to touch their stuff and what they look like.

Nope not racist at all.

Your layers of racism (congrats on that one!), assumption and speculation could make a cake.

I'm talking about proof. From what I've read thus far, there isn't anything that proves racism was involved in anything Coach Flores has cited in his lawsuit. I'm sure this will get dragged out for the next year or more, but at this point I think his case is weak. I'm really interested to see if more evidence comes out that validates his allegations. If he's PROVEN correct, I hope it burns the league down to it's foundation.

You want proof, look at the historical discrimination, look at who are the richest people in the US, you want proof look at the death toll from slavery, transportation of Africans to the US to be slaves, you want Proof look at the way we moved Native Americans to reservations to take the land we wanted or that had resources, then when new resources discovered moved to some other reservation and they are still fight for those treaty rights not honored.

Who was doing all this ?

Rich White People before the US was the US, New Guinea was a drop point to sell a lot of these slaves also that England used also.

Look it up, not hard to find in the history books.

This is coming from a descendent of Jefferson Davis.

 

[RiverDog]

You want proof, look at the historical discrimination, look at who are the richest people in the US, you want proof look at the death toll from slavery, transportation of Africans to the US to be slaves, you want Proof look at the way we moved Native Americans to reservations to take the land we wanted or that had resources, then when new resources discovered moved to some other reservation and they are still fight for those treaty rights not honored.

Who was doing all this ?

Rich White People before the US was the US, New Guinea was a drop point to sell a lot of these slaves also that England used also.

Look it up, not hard to find in the history books.

This is coming from a descendent of Jefferson Davis.

That's nothing more than circumstantial evidence. It's like saying that Stephen Ross is a white man born in the South, so he must be a racist, and therefore, he fired Flores because he is black. It is not the type of evidence that a judge would accept in a job discrimination lawsuit. Additionally, Flores is going to have to explain how Ross, who just a few years ago, hired the first black head coach in his franchise's history, yet in such a short period of time, is now a Confederate flag waving racist that fired him because he is black. It doesn't add up.

Flores is going to need something concrete, like emails, recorded conversations, text messages from individuals with the power to hire/fire him, sworn testimony of an ear witness to conversations, ect, to support his accusations. Perhaps he has an ace up his sleeve that we don't know about, but as far as anyone of us can tell, it's his word against others.

Speaking of evidence, the Giants offered some pretty good evidence and logic regarding the Belichick texts that had suggested that the Giants knew who they were going to hire before they talked to Flores. It would require one to accept that an NFL team would hire a head coach not having met with them in the flesh, having just a 20 minute remote video conference to base their decision on. That seems pretty improbable to me.

It's my opinion that Flores might have opened himself up to a defamation of character lawsuit, particularly in his personal, subjective appraisal of John Elway's physical appearance, that he looked “disheveled” after a night of “drinking heavily.” I'm surprised that his lawyer would consent to a client of theirs including something like that in a public statement.

 

[chris98251]

You want proof, look at the historical discrimination, look at who are the richest people in the US, you want proof look at the death toll from slavery, transportation of Africans to the US to be slaves, you want Proof look at the way we moved Native Americans to reservations to take the land we wanted or that had resources, then when new resources discovered moved to some other reservation and they are still fight for those treaty rights not honored.

Who was doing all this ?

Rich White People before the US was the US, New Guinea was a drop point to sell a lot of these slaves also that England used also.

Look it up, not hard to find in the history books.

This is coming from a descendent of Jefferson Davis.

That's all circumstantial evidence. It's like saying that Stephen Ross is a white man born in the South, so he must be a racist, and therefore, he fired Flores because he is black. It is not the type of evidence that a judge would accept in a job discrimination lawsuit.

Flores is going to need something concrete, like emails, recorded conversations, or text messages from individuals with the power to hire/fire him, to support his accusations. At this point, it's his word against others.

Thats what white entitlement has always says, and I am White, also why things don't change due to White people make the rules still.

Also why the powers in place are scared to death of movements like BLM the protests at Wounded knee, they don't want them to elevate, that's the reality and it becomes more and more evident as people in power seemingly are worse at covering it or feel so secure these days they don't have too. Tell me which side of the aisle has less diversity and protects big business more and who has the most with old money in their families and Lobby.

It has always been about control and enough allowance to resemble advancing our acceptance of our differences but as we seen in the last cycle it wasn't real, look at the backing he got accepting his position.

 

[RiverDog]

Thats what white entitlement has always says, and I am White, also why things don't change due to White people make the rules still.

Also why the powers in place are scared to death of movements like BLM the protests at Wounded knee, they don't want them to elevate, that's the reality and it becomes more and more evident as people in power seemingly are worse at covering it or feel so secure these days they don't have too. Tell me which side of the aisle has less diversity and protects big business more and who has the most with old money in their families and Lobby.

It has always been about control and enough allowance to resemble advancing our acceptance of our differences but as we seen in the last cycle it wasn't real, look at the backing he got accepting his position.

I understand the historical context, and I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying. But it doesn't prove anything other than the conditions for racial discrimination did exist.

I am not defending Stephen Ross, John Elway, or the New York Giants. All I am doing is looking at the evidence as if I were a jurist, and at least to this point, what I am being asked to believe is too illogical and nonsensical for me to accept.

 

[chris98251]

Thats what white entitlement has always says, and I am White, also why things don't change due to White people make the rules still.

Also why the powers in place are scared to death of movements like BLM the protests at Wounded knee, they don't want them to elevate, that's the reality and it becomes more and more evident as people in power seemingly are worse at covering it or feel so secure these days they don't have too. Tell me which side of the aisle has less diversity and protects big business more and who has the most with old money in their families and Lobby.

It has always been about control and enough allowance to resemble advancing our acceptance of our differences but as we seen in the last cycle it wasn't real, look at the backing he got accepting his position.

I understand the historical context, and I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying. But it doesn't prove anything other than the conditions for racial discrimination did exist.

I am not defending Stephen Ross, John Elway, or the New York Giants. All I am doing is looking at the evidence as if I were a jurist, and at least to this point, what I am being asked to believe is too illogical and nonsensical for me to accept.

For this incident it will be a series of interviews over years and how they were conducted with others as well, then what happened and final results, throw in the pay to lose stuff and it kind of breeds more than just a racial thing. When a few people that decide to speak up about more as far as game fixing it could explode.

People are already doing so in whispers so to speak.

 

[RiverDog]

For this incident it will be a series of interviews over years and how they were conducted with others as well, then what happened and final results, throw in the pay to lose stuff and it kind of breeds more than just a racial thing. When a few people that decide to speak up about more as far as game fixing it could explode.

People are already doing so in whispers so to speak.

If Flores was able to get a number of other qualified individuals of color that were passed over for HC openings to sign onto a class action lawsuit, people like Eric Bienemy, Byron Leftwich, Hue Jackson, and so on, and were willing to testify in court to their experiences, then they might be able to persuade a judge/jury that systematic racism exists in the NFL and that they were victims of it with by presenting relatively modest physical evidence. Going it alone and he has much less of a chance. Anyone that is qualified enough to be considered as a serious head coaching applicant is not going to put their career in jeopardy, so I seriously doubt that Flores would be able to get even a single individual to join his cause.

But even if he was successful in recruiting partners in his suit, they're going to need something. They can't go before a judge and jury and say something like "70% of the players in the NFL are black, so at least 25% of the head coaches should be black" and expect the court to believe that they were the victims of a racist system. That ain't gonna cut it.

I am not unsympathetic to the cause. I am convinced that I was the victim of illegal job discrimination at my former place of work, and it's a very gut wrenching, frustrating sensation to know that a personal trait that you have no control over determines the fate of your career. I rationalized my dilemma by accepting it under the premise that life isn't fair.

 

[Aircrew]

I think Clay Travis has this all figured out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMDxA-JTIrc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn5-bPtowGM

If more evidence comes out that directly points to racial discrimination, then Brian Flores will be proven right. Until then, he's nothing more than an entitled individual throwning a temper tantrum because he didn't get the job he felt he deserved so he's attempting to burn everything down.