Destined to fail?

keasley45

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A few years back, when Russ was here there was much debate about how explosive our offense could (and needed to) be to keep up with the top teams in the league. Russ called for it, fans craved it. The high powered passing attack.

But there was always the cautionary thread about being careful about what you wish for - that the league, like life, was cyclical and what is popular today would be less popular in the not too distant future.


The above chart ranks teams in 2024 based on run pass ratio. Where 3 years ago, teams like the Chiefs passed at a 61% rate, they are now much more reliant on the run, at 56%. Pittsburgh, who in 2021 passed at a 63% rate, has swung back at an extreme rate to 46%. The Chargers - 63% to now, 52%. Those are just a few.

There are the steadfast examples like SF who continue (to their credit) to adhere to a balanced attack that leverages dynamic runs AND passes.

And there are teams that pass more now than they did before, like the Bengals

Buffalo, Sf, Minn, AZ, LAC, Wash, GB, Balt, Det, Pitt, and, Philadelphia are the most balanced / run reliant teams, ranked 10 to 1.

Suffice it to say they represent a cross section of some of the top teams in the league. Of course, one can make the argument that good teams dont HAVE to pass as much and so the numbers are tilted a bit. I think that's true to a degree. Buy by and large, most of the teams above are BUILT to run more.

On the flip side...

LV, Dallas, Cleveland, Seattle, NYJ, Cinc, Rams, Jax, Giants and Carolina round out the top 10 pass dependent teams. Ranked 1 to 10.

Of that group, i would say the Jets and Browns are arguably the teams most intentionally built to run more than pass. You could make the argument that we are as well - or at least built to be balanced - and just arent accomplishing it.

In 2021, the most run dependent teams were

Den, Chi, Wash, NE, Clev, Ind, Sf, Ten, NO, Phi, ranked 10 to 1.

Granted, there's Philly, who like SF has stuck to the ground game (Hurts helps that considerably), but the rest of that list is hardly a ranking of NFL elite .

In 2024, if you run more, you are likely among the best teams in the league.

Then there are the Seahawks, who among the most pass happy teams, are the most successful in terms of W/L. We SHOULD suck, but are actually succeeding, which in my opinion is a credit to THE CREATIVE POTENTIAL of Grubb in the passing game and Geno's ability as a QB.

What does all of this say? That we are zigging when everyone else who is successful is zagging. And that success, now more than any point in the last 5 years is predicated not on a pass heavy offense, but rather on one that can run and pass well, but that has a reliable, if not elite run game.

Pete always said we need to run more and do it better. Yet, in 2021 we jettisoned our run more / run better capable OC in favor of Waldron, who couldnt run (or call a coherent game), and now has been followed by Grubb, who (also coming from a pass based program) is seemengly equally incapable of putting together a competent run game strategy.

What does that mean for our immediate future? At best, we have an uphill battle to do anything meaningful this year if we are insistant on relying on a pass game to win for us. It says pretty clearly that defenses have adjusted to stop the pass, and offenses have shifted to exploit the run.

We are throwing right into the strength of today's NFL defenses. You could make the argument that maybe staying the course will pay dividends as defenses in the coming years continue to shift toward more run based schemes and profiles for players. But is that really sustainable?

JS said last offseason that the trend in the league is shifting back to hard nosed offense and that he wanted to be a team that could pound the ball on the ground.

If thats what he wanted, what we have certainly isnt it.

What we have is a system that, if you look at trends, isnt likely to succeed if its going to rely on a QB to carry a team to success - not because that player isnt capable, but rather because its likely not possible.
 

pittpnthrs

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Yeah, it's a good post, but it's one of those 'Captain Obvious' posts. Of course you need to be able to run the ball at some point.
 

SEAHAWK_AL72

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Next year the offensive line should be better at the run. For now using special blocking schemes and short screen passes is our run game.We need the Big boy OL to Move the line to next level. Next year The guards will be switched to big nasty line movers.
 

GeekHawk

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Unfortunately, you can't win a horse race without a racehorse. We don't have the O-line right now to dominate a run defense. OTOH, "In 2024, if you run more, you are likely among the best teams in the league" means that before you know it all defenses will be built to stop the run. When that happens, pass-happy teams will once again rule the day. That's the thing with cycles, they run in cycles.
 

Appyhawk

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Unfortunately, you can't win a horse race without a racehorse. We don't have the O-line right now to dominate a run defense. OTOH, "In 2024, if you run more, you are likely among the best teams in the league" means that before you know it all defenses will be built to stop the run. When that happens, pass-happy teams will once again rule the day. That's the thing with cycles, they run in cycles.
That is why a balanced attack is the best alternative.
 
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keasley45

keasley45

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Yeah, it's a good post, but it's one of those 'Captain Obvious' posts. Of course you need to be able to run the ball at some point.
Well it SHOULD be obvious that you cant win putting the burden of winning on the QB in an era where stopping the pass is what defenses are keyed on. But apparently its NOT obvious when there are comments like 'we arent going anywhere with Geno', or 'a better QB could take us further' when the OBVIOUS fact is that if you are trying to throw your way to victory without a run game, you're fighting an uphill battle regardless of who is under center.

We arent going anywhere if we dont find balance.

The line isnt going to improve unless we call a smarter, more balanced game.

Harping on the passing game not being good enough is barking up the wrong tree. As was pointed out in the thread about our vanilla offense, our production on that side of the ball is getting worse as the season goes on and predictably so. There are only so many tricks in the passing bag to go to. Like last year and the year before, the options are getting slim, absent a run game or the ability to scheme one.
 
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keasley45

keasley45

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Unfortunately, you can't win a horse race without a racehorse. We don't have the O-line right now to dominate a run defense. OTOH, "In 2024, if you run more, you are likely among the best teams in the league" means that before you know it all defenses will be built to stop the run. When that happens, pass-happy teams will once again rule the day. That's the thing with cycles, they run in cycles.
True, but can a pass happy survive long enough to take advantage of the shift?
 

pittpnthrs

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Well it SHOULD be obvious that you cant win putting the burden of winning on the QB in an era where stopping the pass is what defenses are keyed on. But apparently its NOT obvious when there are comments like 'we arent going anywhere with Geno', or 'a better QB could take us further' when the OBVIOUS fact is that if you are trying to throw your way to victory without a run game, you're fighting an uphill battle regardless of who is under center.

We arent going anywhere if we dont find balance.

The line isnt going to improve unless we call a smarter, more balanced game.

Harping on the passing game not being good enough is barking up the wrong tree. As was pointed out in the thread about our vanilla offense, our production on that side of the ball is getting worse as the season goes on and predictably so. There are only so many tricks in the passing bag to go to. Like last year and the year before, the options are getting slim, absent a run game or the ability to scheme one.

Are the Chiefs destined to fail? They pass 60% of the time and are 10-1. Are the Bills destined to fail? They pass 59% of the time and are 9-2. Are the Texans destined to fail? They pass 61% of the time and are 7-5 leading their division. The difference between those teams and Seattle are that their WR corps are worse, but their QB's are better.

Sure, every team would like a well balanced offense, but sometimes it doesn't turn out that way and the brunt of the offense lays hard on the QB. The effort to paint Geno in a better light isn't really getting it. When teams fall into the pass happy stages, the teams with great QB's like the Bills and Chiefs will be fine. Seattle not so much even though they have better receivers. Anybody can do that math.
 
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keasley45

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Are the Chiefs destined to fail? They pass 60% of the time and are 10-1. Are the Bills destined to fail? They pass 59% of the time and are 9-2. Are the Texans destined to fail? They pass 61% of the time and are 7-5 leading their division. The difference between those teams and Seattle are that their WR corps are worse, but their QB's are better.

Sure, every team would like a well balanced offense, but sometimes it doesn't turn out that way and the brunt of the offense lays hard on the QB. The effort to paint Geno in a better light isn't really getting it. When teams fall into the pass happy stages, the teams with great QB's like the Bills and Chiefs will be fine. Seattle not so much even though they have better receivers. Anybody can do that math.

The Chiefs and Bills also have two of the best offensive minds running their repsective offenses and teams. And bonafied x-factors at QB... elite, beyond argument.

The Bills have the 11th ranked rushing attack. The Chiefs ... average. So when they run the ball the other 40 or so percent of the time, it works.

You conveniently ignore the fact that our OC is increasingly being questioned by the media and his coach about the lack of creativity on offense.

The Texans are coming down to earth. There's an article on the front page of ESPN.com right now about 'what happened to CJ Stroud' so are we talking about the same QB?
 

rigelian

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Are the Chiefs destined to fail? They pass 60% of the time and are 10-1. Are the Bills destined to fail? They pass 59% of the time and are 9-2. Are the Texans destined to fail? They pass 61% of the time and are 7-5 leading their division. The difference between those teams and Seattle are that their WR corps are worse, but their QB's are better.

Sure, every team would like a well balanced offense, but sometimes it doesn't turn out that way and the brunt of the offense lays hard on the QB. The effort to paint Geno in a better light isn't really getting it. When teams fall into the pass happy stages, the teams with great QB's like the Bills and Chiefs will be fine. Seattle not so much even though they have better receivers. Anybody can do that math.
We rank 27th in rushing average and rushing total yards. The Bills, Chiefs and Houston rank considerably better than we do. considerably higher. Not to mention that the chiefs and the bills have much better defenses than we have so far this year. Could this be a factor on our teams record?
 
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keasley45

keasley45

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And this thread isnt about Geno, its about a system and philosophy that at its root seems like it might seem to be flawed.

We need to run. We dont know how.

So we need to pass, but pass defenses are still keyed to stop the pass.

And we have an OC that to date has not shown the ability to scheme a run game in an era running the ball is most rewarded.

If there are teams, captained by Elite QBs and Elite OC's with more complete offenses who are on the fringe of the trend and still succeeding, that isnt proof that the trend isnt real and that we arent on the wrong side of it.
 
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keasley45

keasley45

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And let's be honest here, the Bills, Chiefs and Texans all have much better QB's.


This Texans QB?

If you are asking whether the arguably greatest of all time (when he hangs them up) qb in KC and the freak of nature, currently top 5 QB in Buffalo are better than ours? The answer to that is obvious. Yes.

Their repsective coordinators would also without a doubt have this offense and QB rated considerable higher than it is.

But that again is missing the point.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Not at all. My point is that All 3 of them are a lot better than Geno. The QB you have under center matters a LOT. Excuses don't change who someone is.
I would MUCH rather have Stroud than gePICK.
 
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keasley45

keasley45

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Not at all. My point is that All 3 of them are a lot better than Geno. The QB you have under center matters a LOT. Excuses don't change who someone is.
I would MUCH rather have Stroud than gePICK.
Sure. i didnt understand what your angle was until just now.

NNNOOOWWWWW i get it.
 

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