Copa America

[JSeahawks]

U.S. does not have any creativity at all. I mean, I know Argentina would win, but 68 minutes in and we havnt even created a shot.

 

[Smurf]

U.S. does not have any creativity at all. I mean, I know Argentina would win, but 68 minutes in and we havnt even created a shot.

We chose to play bunker and long ball with a defensive mid who cannot run and pass....and a striker who cannot beat anyone for pace.


The setup was a disaster.

 

[pmedic920]

Pardon my ignorance please.

Is the USA out of it with a loss here?

 

[Smurf]

Pardon my ignorance please.

Is the USA out of it with a loss here?

Yes.


Game ended after 3 minutes.

 

[pmedic920]

Pardon my ignorance please.

Is the USA out of it with a loss here?

Yes.


Game ended after 3 minutes.

Thanks, I really know very little about soccer and how these tournaments go.

 

[pmedic920]

With as little as I know, and as a casual observer, it would seem that the USA team is out classed in this game.
I'm not seeing anything that makes me think they are even in the same league.


Is it coaching?
Talent ?
Players with injuries?
What's the issue, just an off game or what ?

 

[JSeahawks]

With as little as I know, and as a casual observer, it would seem that the USA team is out classed in this game.
I'm not seeing anything that makes me think they are even in the same league.


Is it coaching?
Talent ?
Players with injuries?
What's the issue, just an off game or what ?

Well Argentina is the number 1 team in the world and usa is ranked 31st. So even at full strength, yes they out class us. On top of that we were missing 3 of our normal starters due to yellow card suspensions.

On top of that it seems like the coach made some major errors in strategy and personnel. He should know that against Argentina you need to score goals, but he went with the "safe" boring and uninspiring veterans rather than some creative younger players who might have created chances.

Even with a full deck though it would have been a Miracle on Ice level upset if we would have beat Argentina.

They do still have one game left. They'll play the 3rd place match against the loser of Chile and Colombia. If they finish 3rd (which is doubtful) I think it would be a pretty good accomplishment.

 

[SeatownJay]

After watching that trainwreck of a match last night Jordan Morris should never be left off a USMNT roster in favor of Chris Wondolowski again. In fact, Wondo should never be picked for a roster spot over anyone ever again. His national team days need to be over. Same with Kyle Beckerman.

 

[Uncle Si]

With as little as I know, and as a casual observer, it would seem that the USA team is out classed in this game.
I'm not seeing anything that makes me think they are even in the same league.


Is it coaching?
Talent ?
Players with injuries?
What's the issue, just an off game or what ?

It is all of it.

First, Argentina is probably the best team in the world. Easily in the top 3. They also have the best player in the world (easily in the top 2). They are stacked with players who are starters on the best pro clubs in Europe. This was always going to be a near impossible match. Unlike our matches with Germany and the Netherlands in the past, Argentina is a far more attack-laden team and just ran right through it. The other clubs tend to sit back, defend a bit more. Argentina presses high and attacks with pace, with all of their players. Bad mix...

The US is not. And unfortunately last night they got the best of some of Argentina's best players, including Messi's wonderful assist and incredible goal.

My only issue was falling back once again on veterans. This game meant little to the US. They should have started Pulisic and Nagbe.

Morris' omission doesn't trouble me as much as he was used for the Olympics and has been struggling and he's nowhere near Bobby Wood's level right now. There are a handful of US strikers (Bunbery?) who could have gone in front of both Morris and Wondo. My issue is actually playing him in a match you needed to press.

This roster was a mix of old and young. Ideally Klinsmann uses youth in the 3rd place game and we can start to shake out what this roster will look like going into qualifying. There are 4-5 players at the 18s and 23s that are ready for full time top team opportunities, and in crucial positions.

If anyone wants an update on what U12 teams from Villareal, Mexico City, Buenos Aires and London are doing against the US top U12 teams (including one with 3 of my players on it) I am happy to tell you... and its not looking much better...

We have a long way to in developing the type of player this nation needs to compete. Pulisic is on the cusp. More of him is needed.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Si pretty much hit on all my gripes.

If you're grooming this squad for the World Cup/Qualifiers, why continue to drag along old ass vets like Wondo and Beckerman who have no business even being on the pitch at the same time trying to compete against the class of Argentina.

This just showed that Jurgen has half his interest in progressing the program, and the other half in saving his job by going with safe veterans.........as opposed to allowing the future of US soccer to get VITAL minutes in a huge tourney like this, like Morris, Pulisic and Nagbe.

Would the youth of our program made a difference in this match? No, but allowing those players to gain some much needed minutes and confidence in playing? Most definitely yes.

Lastly, this might have been the worst match of Bradley's career, he was awful, really awful. Slow, terrible touches, and some of the worst passing and turnovers I've seen from him in a LONG LONG time, maybe ever.

 

[Crizilla]

Messi is the best

 

[Uncle Si]

A different perspective, and one I am fully on board with

The USMNT and their fans needed this wake-up call, the argument goes, not necessarily because the team was bad (they were not good), but because it’s hard to truly appreciate the greatness we aspire to without that greatness having its way with us. This is what a world No. 1-ranked team looks like, and for all the progress U.S. Soccer has made in recent years and decades, for all the pride justifiably taken from evolving into a competent soccer nation, the Argentines looked like they were playing an entirely different sport out there.

You saw it in the little things. The Argentinian first touches were immaculate: a booming ball would sail a couple dozen yards, touch an Albiceleste boot, and thud dead to the ground, as if by magic or magnets. American first touches rebounded into space, or right to pressuring defenders. That’s what a massive talent disparity looks like, one team executing the most basic of soccer skills just that much better than the other.

And then there is the extraordinary (if you've never watched soccer before, please understand that this shot is truly remarkable... and yet so simple for the best player in the world.)

[youtube]9vKWGuWhOCA[/youtube]

 

[Sgt. Largent]

This is what a world No. 1-ranked team looks like, and for all the progress U.S. Soccer has made in recent years and decades, for all the pride justifiably taken from evolving into a competent soccer nation, the Argentines looked like they were playing an entirely different sport out there.

You're right Si, but IMO we should never aspire to be an Argentina, or Spain, or any South American style of play nation. Those are not realistic goals for a country like the US.

Our aspirations, and I think the power brokers inside the program agree with me, which is why they hired Klinsmann to begin with is to model and grow our program after the German style of play...............big, physical, disciplined, efficient, athletic, workrate, etc.

This is an attainable goal with the size and athleticism of American soccer players. Trying to model ourselves after a country like Argentina is a fruitless effort. We'll never have the style, imagination, technical ability, passing and vision of a team like Argentina, or other South American nations.

 

[Uncle Si]

This just showed that Jurgen has half his interest in progressing the program, and the other half in saving his job by going with safe veterans.........as opposed to allowing the future of US soccer to get VITAL minutes in a huge tourney like this, like Morris, Pulisic and Nagbe.

Would the youth of our program made a difference in this match? No, but allowing those players to gain some much needed minutes and confidence in playing? Most definitely yes.

Im hoping Klinsmann can now officially break from the old guard. i don't disagree with his approach to the tournament, just this match. Dempsey has been invaluable and deserved to be out there. But once Wood and Jones were left out he had a choice to change his perceived value for the Argentina match. I think he got it wrong, and I'm sure he realizes it too.

But.. all that will be determined in how he approaches the 3rd place game

 

[Uncle Si]

This is what a world No. 1-ranked team looks like, and for all the progress U.S. Soccer has made in recent years and decades, for all the pride justifiably taken from evolving into a competent soccer nation, the Argentines looked like they were playing an entirely different sport out there.

You're right Si, but IMO we should never aspire to be an Argentina, or Spain, or any South American style of play nation. Those are not realistic goals for a country like the US.

Our aspirations, and I think the power brokers inside the program agree with me, which is why they hired Klinsmann to begin with is to model and grow our program after the German style of play...............big, physical, disciplined, efficient, athletic, workrate, etc.

This is an attainable goal with the size and athleticism of American soccer players. Trying to model ourselves after a country like Argentina is a fruitless effort. We'll never have the style, imagination, technical ability, passing and vision of a team like Argentina, or other South American nations.

This is really incorrect on a dozen levels. Germany is absolutely loaded with massively skilled players (Ozil, Draxler, Shurrle, Goetze, Sane, Muller) Klinsmann himself was one of the greatest technical strikers of his generation. A dutch freestyle player created the Spanish style amidst all the discipline attributed to European style. Germany and others model that, with free roaming CBs supporting possession and marauding outside backs joining the attack, a holding mid or two sitting deep to ensure they can win it back. Again, very similar to Argentina last night, very similar to most club teams across Europe (United, Leicester, Chelsea, Liverpool, Juventus, Dortmund, Bayern, City, etc.)

This is not about aspiring to be like a certain nation... but to develop the overall basic skillset that all good players have. Germany's deft first touch, movement off the ball and overall tactical acumen is no different than Argentina (who play nothing like Spain by the way). All of the attributes you attribute to the Germans were on full display last night for the Argentinians as well. Their work rate and tactical discipline were fantastic for a national team coming into a tournament right after the end of club seasons.

US players rely on physicality at the expense of technical development. The powers that be agree with me as I am running Reyna's handbook at each of our trainings for the youth DAs. The mindset is more Dutch then German, but the idea is to create players who can attack with pace and surround them with players willing to run into spaces to support. Much of what we saw from Argentina last night and what we see on a daily basis from Germany, Italy, France.

Seems simple.. its clearly not, because this nation is so far from developing that player. Pulisic seems on the right path. Dempsey probably the closest think to it at his peak. Reyna as well.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Where did I say German players weren't skilled?

I was pointing out realistic program goals, and unrealistic program goals. The US has already flashed the kind of potential I'm talking about at times over the past 10 years.........playing hard, rugged, athletic, direct, efficient fast paced with a never quit workrate.

That's a realistic goal of developing our program.

 

[Uncle Si]

Where did I say German players weren't skilled?

I was pointing out realistic program goals, and unrealistic program goals. The US has already flashed the kind of potential I'm talking about at times over the past 10 years.........playing hard, rugged, athletic, direct, efficient fast paced with a never quit workrate.

That's a realistic goal of developing our program.

What potential? Playing hard, rugged, etc. isn't winning any major tournaments. You attribute all those skillsets to the German model while ignoring that they win because they produce fantastic, world class skilled players.

Look at the Germans who won the World Cup, or this Argentinian team for a model. Both work hard (as do the Italians, English) without the ball and when they win are fantastically gifted in key areas.

Where is the US version of Ozil or Goetze? Delli Alli? Or even from last night: Marcus Rojo? Di Maria? Dybala? Lamela? Benega? Fast paced, hard working, deftly skilled attacking players. I really think you are undervaluing the Argentinian roster. These were high pressing, hard working midfielders on display last night. shutting down every channel, challenging every player who touched the ball. Might need to redefine "South American" style to be honest. All those players listed above are playing for high energy, high pressing European squads who attack the ball and attack when they have it.

The US has yet to produce that. The development model for the youth programs is specifically trying to address that.

 

[pmedic920]

Thanks for the info guys.

So, with the USA still playing for 3rd place, it seems to me that is respectable.
I get it, for real USA soccer fans it was hard to watch but we still should be proud of them, huh?

 

[Uncle Si]

Thanks for the info guys.

So, with the USA still playing for 3rd place, it seems to me that is respectable.
I get it, for real USA soccer fans it was hard to watch but we still should be proud of them, huh?

I'm not proud. Not by a longshot. All last night did was expose the same fragility and weaknesses we have known existed in US soccer for 3 decades.

We love to espouse a certain mentality that encourages mediocrity at a high level. Honestly, "working hard" is the same thing as getting a participation medal.

I watched Croatia last night... how is that tiny nation able to create and develop so many players with the work ethic Sgt. Lrgt thinks embodies our national identity with the technical acumen and skill actually needed to compete at a high level?

So no, not proud, just not chuffed the US didn't perform. Slightly optimistic it brings the changes that are necessary

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Where did I say German players weren't skilled?

I was pointing out realistic program goals, and unrealistic program goals. The US has already flashed the kind of potential I'm talking about at times over the past 10 years.........playing hard, rugged, athletic, direct, efficient fast paced with a never quit workrate.

That's a realistic goal of developing our program.

What potential? Playing hard, rugged, etc. isn't winning any major tournaments. You attribute all those skillsets to the German model while ignoring that they win because they produce fantastic, world class skilled players.

I guess you have higher expectations out of what our program can achieve. When I say potential, I mean this program has had big wins in the World Cup, CONCACAF and The Confederation Cup.

Now the issue is sustainability and continuity........which IMO is the reason Jurgen still has his job. Because he certainly hasn't delivered on the things you're talking about, development and style of play. But to fire him means starting over once again.

This country will never have a perennial top 5 program, it just won't. So my expectations are lower than maybe yours. But I do think we can get to the point where we're consistently making it into knockout rounds of all the major tournaments, and once every 6-10 years getting into quarters and semi's. That's a realistic goal..........to always be in the conversation, and not just be the "underdog Americans" making a surprising run.