Clowney vs Frank Clark

[SoulfishHawk]

People are WAY too fascinated with stats. Like many players around the league, stats do zero justice to how good Clowney is. He's flat out disruptive and teams have to double him every game. So he doesn't get a bunch of sacks, big deal.

 

[sutz]

I think that most fans tend to work with 5 year old cap numbers in their heads. Contract inflation seems to run faster than most fans' opinion of what is "too much."

And as usual, hardly anybody is worried about Russ's "biggest contract in NFL history" any more. :twisted:

 

[SoulfishHawk]

VERY good point. Today's massive contract is a bargain or average in a couple years.

 

[Subzero717]

Interesting Fieldgulls article regarding Clowney. Author skeptical of signing him to big $ even after sf.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2019/11/20/2 ... wney-49ers

The author doesn't appear to have a clue of what he's talking about.

I got to the second paragraph and saw enough. He is spot on. A sack is tangible. Its a negative play.

There is no way to measure the affect of a hurry or a pressure. Quite frankly its a participation ribbon. Good QBs eat pressure. Elite QBs never feel it.

I hope many GM's feel as you guys do, and that helps keep the hype for Clowney down in the off season so we can sign him to a moderate long term deal.

It's why Houston chose Watt over Clowney, some don't see the value in disruption and pressure, and only with tangible metrics.

IMO that's shortsighted, and anyone who's watched our games this year can plainly see that Clowney's a game wrecker week in and week out, and I have NO problem paying him 20M a year.......especially since we've literally got no other elite DE's.

Having no other options is a huge issue and I have been extremely critical of Schneider because of it.

That said I still cant reconcile handing a guy with that injury history and other questions that amount of money.

I also think it ammusing/not a coincidence that the masses have turned to "we need Clowney resigned now" after what many have said was the best game of his career. I at keast never saw any of this after the Atl game. Baltimore? New Orleans?

 

[Largent80]

I think those games you mentioned he was double teamed the entire way and nobody else took up the slack. Last week he got Jefferson back and Reed found his mojo. Clowney is #1 in the league being double teamed yet is still disruptive and that's rare.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

That said I still cant reconcile handing a guy with that injury history and other questions that amount of money.

Clowney hasn't been hurt since what, 2014? 2015?

Tell you what, he's been a hell of a lot more durable than Watt, so IMO the Texans kept the wrong dude. Watt's broken.

 

[Subzero717]

That said I still cant reconcile handing a guy with that injury history and other questions that amount of money.

Clowney hasn't been hurt since what, 2014? 2015?

Tell you what, he's been a hell of a lot more durable than Watt, so IMO the Texans kept the wrong dude. Watt's broken.

I dont disagree with that.

Clowney had played 16 games once in his career.

My point is paying one guy on the defense spefically on the line is a mistake. Im not anti Clowney. Im anti a huge chuck of cap to one guy. Look at the top paid guys. Most arent are providing a huge impact in terms of win/loss. A lot arent in their original team.

 

[Tical21]

People are WAY too fascinated with stats. Like many players around the league, stats do zero justice to how good Clowney is. He's flat out disruptive and teams have to double him every game. So he doesn't get a bunch of sacks, big deal.

Sacks are actually a VERY big deal. They typically end drives. A silent game with two sacks can often be more impactful than a very active game with none. You can cause incompletions and make plays in the run game, and the offense can overcome those. But it is more difficult to overcome sacks. Now, if we get the 49ers Clowney often, forgettaboutit, but if we get the guy that is on pace for 5 sacks, effort disappears often,etc, i'd rather have a guy that gets double-digit sacks, even if they are less impressive in other facets.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

That said I still cant reconcile handing a guy with that injury history and other questions that amount of money.

Clowney hasn't been hurt since what, 2014? 2015?

Tell you what, he's been a hell of a lot more durable than Watt, so IMO the Texans kept the wrong dude. Watt's broken.

I dont disagree with that.

Clowney had played 16 games once in his career.

My point is paying one guy on the defense spefically on the line is a mistake. Im not anti Clowney. Im anti a huge chuck of cap to one guy. Look at the top paid guys. Most arent are providing a huge impact in terms of win/loss. A lot arent in their original team.

I'd agree with you if this was last year and we were talking about a edge rusher only like Clark.

But IMO Clowney's one of the best 4-5 all around DE's in the league, a three down effective disruptor in both pass and run.......and those guys are hard to find.

Now if he and his agent get crazy and demand 25M? Then I'm out. But if he's willing to sign a 3-4 year deal around 20M? That's fine with me. We've got the cap space, and he's worth it IMO.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

He changes the game with his disruptive play, and being doubled all the time. He creates sacks for OTHER players. It happened a couple times in the Niners game. So, someone else got the sack, oh well, Clowney forcing pretty boy to pull the ball back gave a sack to his teammate. A sack is a sack regardless where it comes from. Sometimes you get one, sometimes you create one. I don't see effort vanishing, that guy plays hard.

 

[Largent80]

When you get someone else's overall #1 pick who has produced at a high level for seasons you simply PAY that person. Clowney is that guy. We have plenty of cap. What is the argument?....Players get cycled out in this NFL, plus we have a plethora of picks.

Buying jerseys with a name on them is long gone. I am a proud owner of a #80 in several forms, a #24, and a #3 in multiple colors. I also own the original green (Reebok with Dick Gozinya on the back)....I won't ever buy another jersey unless they again redesign and I like it because these players are like popping in a video game or movie.

Before you know it....Times UP.

 

[Tical21]

He changes the game with his disruptive play, and being doubled all the time. He creates sacks for OTHER players. It happened a couple times in the Niners game. So, someone else got the sack, oh well, Clowney forcing pretty boy to pull the ball back gave a sack to his teammate. A sack is a sack regardless where it comes from. Sometimes you get one, sometimes you create one. I don't see effort vanishing, that guy plays hard.

We're currently 28th in sacks, after being 11th last season.

And effort issues definitely show up on tape. I'm hoping it was more of a conditioning issue, but we'll see.

 

[Tical21]

When you get someone else's overall #1 pick who has produced at a high level for seasons you simply PAY that person. Clowney is that guy. We have plenty of cap. What is the argument?....Players get cycled out in this NFL, plus we have a plethora of picks.

Buying jerseys with a name on them is long gone. I am a proud owner of a #80 in several forms, a #24, and a #3 in multiple colors. I also own the original green (Reebok with d*ck Gozinya on the back)....I won't ever buy another jersey unless they again redesign and I like it because these players are like popping in a video game or movie.

Before you know it....Times UP.

The argument would be you don't pay 20 million per year to a DE that isn't capable of getting double-digit sacks.

 

[DomeHawk]

The argument that QB-pressures are valuable is correct but sacks equal drive-enders and THAT is more valuable.

I really like JC, both as a player and a human. He really seems to be really coming on now and I think some of that can be attributed to Reed coming back. I have posted all season that we needed to be in a good place at the half to make a run with our lines coming together. We are more than there. More than just about anything we need the d-line to play well with all these tough games coming up.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

When you get someone else's overall #1 pick who has produced at a high level for seasons you simply PAY that person. Clowney is that guy. We have plenty of cap. What is the argument?....Players get cycled out in this NFL, plus we have a plethora of picks.

Buying jerseys with a name on them is long gone. I am a proud owner of a #80 in several forms, a #24, and a #3 in multiple colors. I also own the original green (Reebok with d*ck Gozinya on the back)....I won't ever buy another jersey unless they again redesign and I like it because these players are like popping in a video game or movie.

Before you know it....Times UP.

The argument would be you don't pay 20 million per year to a DE that isn't capable of getting double-digit sacks.

If that's all Clowney did was rush the passer, you are correct.

But he doesn't, he's even better against the run, and he's got what 3-4 tips? An interception, fumble recovery and two TD's?

That's why I'd rather pay a guy like Clowney than guys like Mack or Clark that can dip off for a year or two and get less than 10 sacks, yet you're paying them like a 15+ a year pass rusher, AND they're a liability in the run game.

A guy who can line up anywhere, versatile, and is a complete and utter game wrecker for all three downs that plays 80-90% of the snaps? Sign me up.

It's either that or go back to trying to find yet another DE replacement next off season, cause the cupboards are bare.

 

[Largent80]

Sacks a SO over rated. Look at pressures and hits on the QB. Frank Clark hasn't exactly lit up the sack dept this year. It's a totally irrelevant stat.

 

[chris98251]

Sacks are nice, hurries and pressures typically cause interceptions and end drives as well with a waste of a down.

 

[Subzero717]

Sacks wether you believe they are overrated or not are tangible. They result in a negative play. Hurries and pressure do not. They are basically made up. It accounts for zero. Tell me where the pressure begins and ends. Especially with the influx of athletes playing QB today.

Fun fact- Russell Wilson is pressured on over 40% of all pass plays. He has a passer rating of 108 when pressured. That doesnt sound like pressure has much of an impact.

Derek Carr leads the NFL with a 109 passer rating while under pressure.

 

[sutz]

How many fantasy points do you get for a sack?

Asking for a friend.

:twisted:

 

[JGreen79]

When you get someone else's overall #1 pick who has produced at a high level for seasons you simply PAY that person. Clowney is that guy. We have plenty of cap. What is the argument?....Players get cycled out in this NFL, plus we have a plethora of picks.

Buying jerseys with a name on them is long gone. I am a proud owner of a #80 in several forms, a #24, and a #3 in multiple colors. I also own the original green (Reebok with d*ck Gozinya on the back)....I won't ever buy another jersey unless they again redesign and I like it because these players are like popping in a video game or movie.

Before you know it....Times UP.

The argument would be you don't pay 20 million per year to a DE that isn't capable of getting double-digit sacks.

Hypothetically, lets imagine a player so dominant that the offense uses all 5 lineman to block him every play. Because of this he records zero sacks on the year. Using this logic you let him walk because he isnt capable of getting double digit sacks.

In this same scenario if the rest of the team can't record sacks you dont replace the guy drawing the attention, you replace the ones who don't.