CenturyLink Field is no longer the "Home of the 12th Man."

[Cartire]

 

[HawkAroundTheClock]

12s is more inclusive.

A LOT of our fans are women. Not a majority, but enough that they should not be disregarded.

Say what you will but 12th Man does 3 things:

1 - Seems to omit/overlook the just as important female fans

2 - Confuses us with the A&M people, and if you knew any - you would know you don't want to be confused with them. Gross.

3 - Removes the stupid copyright issues for a trademark that A&M never should have been granted in the 1st place. Apparently in Texas, seeing there are 11 people on the field and naturally adding one more is crazy innovative stuff. Here I think we know how to count to 12. (See #2)

I prefer "The 12s" more than the 12th Man. 12th man sounds like one extra guy, the 12s sounds like a Horde.

Exactly all of this. The horde aspect nails it.

The inclusive part reaches beyond females and children. Technically, only people in the stadium could be referred to as "the 12th man." That leaves out hundreds of thousands wearing 12 jerseys and assorted Seahawks gear all over the PNW and around the world.

Yeah the organization has pushed it for legal reasons, but there is an organic element in our growing fan base as well.

"12s" is the next step. The next generation. It is EVERYBODY who loves and cheers for the Hawks, be it at the Clink or on the couch.

Man
noun. a human being of either sex; a person.
"places untouched by the ravages of man"

Nobody is telling you you can't say anything. And nobody, aside from you, has mentioned taking offense.

The angle in the two posts you quoted is inclusivity. Mine specifically mentioned inclusivity that has no basis in gender. If you, as a separate issue, want to try to convince women to accept the word "man" to define themselves, you are free to do that. I'm sure your dictionary definition would make for interesting conversation with females on Twitter.

 

[dutchman063]

12's? no thanks..."12's" can be anything... 12 oz'er, 12drummers drummin, 12 sponsers.. its crap

 

[Cartire]

12s is more inclusive.

A LOT of our fans are women. Not a majority, but enough that they should not be disregarded.

Say what you will but 12th Man does 3 things:

1 - Seems to omit/overlook the just as important female fans

2 - Confuses us with the A&M people, and if you knew any - you would know you don't want to be confused with them. Gross.

3 - Removes the stupid copyright issues for a trademark that A&M never should have been granted in the 1st place. Apparently in Texas, seeing there are 11 people on the field and naturally adding one more is crazy innovative stuff. Here I think we know how to count to 12. (See #2)

I prefer "The 12s" more than the 12th Man. 12th man sounds like one extra guy, the 12s sounds like a Horde.

Exactly all of this. The horde aspect nails it.

The inclusive part reaches beyond females and children. Technically, only people in the stadium could be referred to as "the 12th man." That leaves out hundreds of thousands wearing 12 jerseys and assorted Seahawks gear all over the PNW and around the world.

Yeah the organization has pushed it for legal reasons, but there is an organic element in our growing fan base as well.

"12s" is the next step. The next generation. It is EVERYBODY who loves and cheers for the Hawks, be it at the Clink or on the couch.

Man
noun. a human being of either sex; a person.
"places untouched by the ravages of man"

Nobody is telling you you can't say anything. And nobody, aside from you, has mentioned taking offense.

The angle in the two posts you quoted is inclusivity. Mine specifically mentioned inclusivity that has no basis in gender. If you, as a separate issue, want to try to convince women to accept the word "man" to define themselves, you are free to do that. I'm sure your dictionary definition would make for interesting conversation with females on Twitter.

Yea, thats what I want to do. Get in a twitter battle with a bunch of people who quiver over the proper nomenclature "Man" that refers to mankind, or human beings. The fact is that "12th person" and "12th mankind" and "12th human being" just doesnt have the same ring as "12th man" which doesnt refer to 'Man' as a gender, but to mankind, meaning all of us.

The fact that you guys speak of inclusion, as if people other then those of mankind are being excluded, is what I'm referring too. You're not taking a high road here, you're taking a road that has no business being built.

 

[SirTed]

I'm fine with the switch, in fact - I prefer it - even as a male.

I never identified with the "12th man" thing, specifically - just the idea. Doesn't really matter what you call it.


With that said, I don't think anyone can argue that 12's isn't more inclusive. It certainly is, no matter what the intent of the use of the word "man" is.

It doesn't matter what definition is intended, it matters how it is perceived. As the female population of our fanbase increases (along with the rest of the league) this is important.

If you have a big problem with the switch, ask yourself why. As stated in posts above, nobody is asking you to stop using the phrase. The Seahawks did. That's all.

 

[Cartire]

I'm fine with the switch, in fact - I prefer it - even as a male.

I never identified with the "12th man" thing, specifically - just the idea. Doesn't really matter what you call it.


With that said, I don't think anyone can argue that 12's isn't more inclusive. It certainly is, no matter what the intent of the use of the word "man" is.

It doesn't matter what definition is intended, it matters how it is perceived. As the female population of our fanbase increases (along with the rest of the league) this is important.

If you have a big problem with the switch, ask yourself why. As stated in posts above, nobody is asking you to stop using the phrase. The Seahawks did. That's all.

I've got nothing against the new phrase, but the new phrase is not some politically correct movement to include others. The original term included everyone. The only reason the change happened is because of litigation, or technically, to prevent it. The fact that so many post turned this into a PC movement is unnecessary. There's nothing wrong with us being, just, the 12's. But this was straight up about trademarks and ownership rights. The name was never a sexist/gender specific issue, and to praise the change as such, make it seem that way.

Man, when used as in its current vernacular, was never gender specific even if it shared the same word for the male gender. Orange means 2 things, but you dont see fruit farmers up in arms about it sharing its word with the color lobbyist.

I get trying to look for the positives in the new terminology. But lets not try to make this into a progressive movement it never needed to be.

 

[SirTed]

I understand exactly why the change was made. Doesn't change the fact that the change happens to be more inclusive. Again, I understand the use of the word man in this context. I'm generally fine with it. I'm a man, though. It's very easy to shrug things like that off. The simple fact that people (men and women) take notice of a change like that should indicate that it in fact is more inclusive. That's all I'm arguing. It's more inclusive. That's just a fact.

I'm not really praising anything, or anyone. I'm just saying that the switch has a benefit. It should be noted that (as stated in previous posts) Pete and other Seahawks have used the used the term "12's" in place of the previous as well - and I doubt it was due to any litigation or pending copyright infringement. or whatever. I think that in those cases, be it in an interview or whatever, the coach and / player is being conscious of including both sexes - and again - if people are being conscious of it, it indicates that the former name for the fan base is perceived as exclusive, no matter the words intent.

 

[HawkAroundTheClock]

Cartire, I pretty much agree with what you are saying. The motivation behind the change is all marketing and copyright. Why can't it be cool that more people might feel included also?

You seem really touchy about the gender issue and say that the "current vernacular" of the word "man" is gender neutral? That's the archaic and larger sense of the word, but it's not used in conversational language referencing a group comprised of diverse genders.

And you say that the phrase "'12th man' ... doesnt refer to 'Man' as a gender, but to mankind." Huh? What were the 11 mankinds that came before us? That's silly. It obviously refers to the impact of the fans being the additional "player" on the field. Your knee-jerk reaction to a perceived PC enemy is making you twist your words into illogical knots.

It's fine if you like the ring of "the 12th Man" and that you self-identify as "a 12th Man". Why does changing the signage at the stadium and other Seahawks fans thinking its cool that more fans might feel included bother you? Nothing is being taken from you.

Also, you haven't responded to the fact that my initial nod to inclusivity was about where people watch the game and not gender at all. No high road taken, none implied. I think it's cool when more people feel included. If you don't, ok. That's where we differ.

 

[Cartire]

I understand exactly why the change was made. Doesn't change the fact that the change happens to be more inclusive. Again, I understand the use of the word man in this context. I'm generally fine with it. I'm a man, though. It's very easy to shrug things like that off. The simple fact that people (men and women) take notice of a change like that should indicate that it in fact is more inclusive. That's all I'm arguing. It's more inclusive. That's just a fact.

I'm not really praising anything, or anyone. I'm just saying that the switch has a benefit. It should be noted that (as stated in previous posts) Pete and other Seahawks have used the used the term "12's" in place of the previous as well - and I doubt it was due to any litigation or pending copyright infringement. or whatever. I think that in those cases, be it in an interview or whatever, the coach and / player is being conscious of including both sexes - and again - if people are being conscious of it, it indicates that the former name for the fan base is perceived as exclusive, no matter the words intent.

No, they are not being cautious of including both sexes. This is what im talking about. Do you really believe that anyone that gives an interview, including PC and JS, that they dont have a directive to push 12's over 12th man? They were saying 12's because of 2 reasons.

1) 12's was acceptable as a response to shorten the 12th man. Guess what, A&M has been known to do that too. Thats because its a great shortened term for the 12th man.

2) They were most definitely directed to only refer to the 12th man as the 12's. Watch the 2013 season press conferences, and you'll hear both JS and PC refer to the 12th Man. Watch the 2014 press conferences, and its all 12's. This has nothing to do with genders or exclusion. This was entirely PR driven to change the vernacular the Seahawks themselves used to avoid litigation down the road. It was smart and tactful. But it was not a movement of equality since "Man" was always used a the accepted definition of person.

Trying to shine a light on something not attended is giving credence that the formal terminology was sexist. It was not. It never was. To celebrate a new term, as if the old gives a disservice to actual activist movements, is opportunistic. Turning anything into a PC movement, when not warranted, is unnecessary and creates division.

The Seattle Seahawks are no longer referring to the "12th Man" due to ongoing trademark issues. Rebranding a term is not uncommon in these situations, but trying to staple on a perceived societal issue is dumb and only adds unneeded discontent.

 

[pmedic920]

Well, the mods need to change our logo. "Seahawk.net voice of the 12th man" Just an observation. It don't bug me any.

If it ever gets brought up, my vote will be as stated above, HELL NO :{)

 

[JAGHAWK]

Here's an idea! Anyone who isn't happy with it can go ahead root for another team. :th2thumbs:

 

[chris98251]

organically shifted, that's comical

It's Seattle, I am not surprised, we are organically engineering our 12's now.

I blame her

 

[Paschtorian]

If Texas A & M wants to make this an issue,...........really?,...........

.........I say, "Go with being a '12'."

I am fine with being one of the 12's.

 

[Team Patera]

Texas A&M is just jealous because the Seahawks are so popular and it's cool to be a fan.
If the Seahawks were 2-14 (God forbid), they wouldn't even take a second glance.

 

[Team Patera]

Here's an idea! Anyone who isn't happy with it can go ahead root for another team. :th2thumbs:

Yup!

 

[Boom84]

12s is more inclusive.

A LOT of our fans are women. Not a majority, but enough that they should not be disregarded.

Say what you will but 12th Man does 3 things:

1 - Seems to omit/overlook the just as important female fans

2 - Confuses us with the A&M people, and if you knew any - you would know you don't want to be confused with them. Gross.

3 - Removes the stupid copyright issues for a trademark that A&M never should have been granted in the 1st place. Apparently in Texas, seeing there are 11 people on the field and naturally adding one more is crazy innovative stuff. Here I think we know how to count to 12. (See #2)

I prefer "The 12s" more than the 12th Man. 12th man sounds like one extra guy, the 12s sounds like a Horde.

Agreed, I actually love "The 12s" as it sounds like a mob from that old movie Warriors.

 

[253hawk]

Texas A&M is just jealous because the Seahawks are so popular and it's cool to be a fan.
If the Seahawks were 2-14 (God forbid), they wouldn't even take a second glance.

They trademarked it 68 years after ripping it off from Minnesota and only gave a damn after the 2005 SB run when Seattle was giving it an actual meaning. If A&M really cared about it, they'd never have put a price on it and let Paul Allen rent it to begin with.

 

[anonFAFA]

I understand exactly why the change was made. Doesn't change the fact that the change happens to be more inclusive. Again, I understand the use of the word man in this context. I'm generally fine with it. I'm a man, though. It's very easy to shrug things like that off. The simple fact that people (men and women) take notice of a change like that should indicate that it in fact is more inclusive. That's all I'm arguing. It's more inclusive. That's just a fact.

I'm not really praising anything, or anyone. I'm just saying that the switch has a benefit. It should be noted that (as stated in previous posts) Pete and other Seahawks have used the used the term "12's" in place of the previous as well - and I doubt it was due to any litigation or pending copyright infringement. or whatever. I think that in those cases, be it in an interview or whatever, the coach and / player is being conscious of including both sexes - and again - if people are being conscious of it, it indicates that the former name for the fan base is perceived as exclusive, no matter the words intent.

No, they are not being cautious of including both sexes. This is what im talking about. Do you really believe that anyone that gives an interview, including PC and JS, that they dont have a directive to push 12's over 12th man? They were saying 12's because of 2 reasons.

1) 12's was acceptable as a response to shorten the 12th man. Guess what, A&M has been known to do that too. Thats because its a great shortened term for the 12th man.

2) They were most definitely directed to only refer to the 12th man as the 12's. Watch the 2013 season press conferences, and you'll hear both JS and PC refer to the 12th Man. Watch the 2014 press conferences, and its all 12's. This has nothing to do with genders or exclusion. This was entirely PR driven to change the vernacular the Seahawks themselves used to avoid litigation down the road. It was smart and tactful. But it was not a movement of equality since "Man" was always used a the accepted definition of person.

Trying to shine a light on something not attended is giving credence that the formal terminology was sexist. It was not. It never was. To celebrate a new term, as if the old gives a disservice to actual activist movements, is opportunistic. Turning anything into a PC movement, when not warranted, is unnecessary and creates division.

The Seattle Seahawks are no longer referring to the "12th Man" due to ongoing trademark issues. Rebranding a term is not uncommon in these situations, but trying to staple on a perceived societal issue is dumb and only adds unneeded discontent.

For what it's worth, I'm in complete agreement with you. I don't get why this needs to be a political correctness issue.

That said, I don't care what you call it...12s, 12th Man, 12th Woman, or 12th person. I just call it a Seahawks fan.

 

[EthanCW]

:snack:

The butt hurt is strong on this thread. Maybe you'll listen to Seattle Seahawks Superbowl champion Red Bryant.

https://youtu.be/aKujtuukTc8

One element that is misunderstood about the Texas A&M 12th Man is that it's not just football. The 12th Man shows up for Women's Soccer, Baseball, Softball, Equestrian Sports, Basketball, Track & Field, ect.

When the 12th Man starts showing up for Mariners or Sounders games, you're only just beginning to scratch the surface of what the 12th Man means.

Being loud is just the beginning. It's not just being a "fan", it's actually being ready to enter the field of play.

I'm a Seattle Seahawks fan, and I know plenty of other Aggie Seahawks fans; but there's only one true 12th Man, and Red Bryant said it best.

 

[BlueTalon]

None of my organs have changed or shifted.
I like the idea of being part of a horde, tho. Dad always said we were loosely related to Marshal Tito and Attila the Hun, so there's that.

Really? I'm related to Tito too!


(Man, that's a funny sounding sentence.)

I think that was Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz...."And Tito too!"........No?

General-Marshal Josip Broz Tito, dictator of Yugoslavia. He's the one who told the Soviets to take a hike and made it stick somehow.