Bevell Haters Unite!

[pehawk]

Any of you Bevell supporters want to explain to me his lack of blitz beaters during his entire tenure? And the thought process behind routinely going hurry up, empty set in SD and Dallas, immediately after the defense was just gutted for an extended amount of time? I'm willing to hear the new ideas.

Stats and rankings mean nothing to me. Andy Dalton had comparable stats to Peyton Manning during similar periods. You think that tells the whole story?

People doubting Cables importance should use Google. Start by zeroing in on their title differences and reason behind those differences.

You are simply wrong. Last season, against the blitz, Russell Wilson was the best QB in football according to PFF grading out twice as good as any other QB. This included being second best against the blitz when there is no pressure and best when the blitz created pressure. In other words, it wasn't just Russell's ability to scramble away that helped him beat the blitz - they had clear blitz beaters.

"Russell Wilson was the league’s best against the blitz at +21.5 and he did it with one of the highest times to throw at 3.05 seconds. He faced the second highest percentage of blitzes at 39.2 percent."

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... the-blitz/

The final report for this season isn't out yet but I bet it is close. They clearly had a plan against the blitz last season.

This just goes to show the amount of misinformation and bias about our offense there is.Also goes to show you that focusing on one or two games doesn't tell you the whole story.

Though I will definitely agree with you in saying that Cable has a major influence in this offense and the success of the run game.

Theres no blitz beaters in this offense. None. This stat has nothing to do with our argument. It has all to do with a QB who's elite on the move.

Literally has zero to do with it. If their were blitz beaters they wouldn't be high YPA, by default.

Just stop.

It's RW's job to audible out of a play when he sees a blitz. Not Bevels. We have slant routes and screen plays. I don't know exactly what you are referring to when you say we don't have any blitz beaters. That's just silly. Makes no sense. We have plenty of them. It's Russells job to audible to one of them and the teams job to execute properly.

You've got Baldwin praising him. The numbers saying were a top 10 offense. Were #1 an explosive plays. There's numbers showing that were the best against the blitz. And yet you stubbornly just say no.

Time for you to start posting the evidence and not just your "take" on things. And youre gonna need more then just a few picked plays here and there. Let's see the trend. Let's see the facts you have.

Are you trying to post like Tokadub to honor him or something?

I'm talking blitz beaters like we saw in Arizona. Designed routes to attack where the blitz is coming from, and/or quick passing to beat it. Not hoping like hell Wilson eludes pressure long enough to connect on the three deeper developing routes.

Bubble screens? That's what you're talking about? And the Hawks have traditionally had a good slant passing attack under Bevell? I'm way confused.

I already said my point on stats. Stats say Andy Dalton is comparable to Peyton Manning. Stats and numbers left Russell Wilson as a round 3 mystery and half this board pining for Matt Flynn. Stats and numbers are usually a crutch and training wheels.

And I could give a rats ass if you think I need to stop giving my "take" on things. I lay out reasons and my knowledge and opinions are respected by most of the smarter ones, sorry you take offense.

My opinion that Bevell is/was a bleh hire day one, you can find that, and I still think he's blah now.

 

[pehawk]

And also, blitzbeaters would mean a low YPA, low air yards and low explosives. Does that describe the Seahawks offense?

 

[pehawk]

If anything, our passing offense is closer to average (but still above average) when the opposition drops 7 and gets no pressure. Whereas the best passing offenses feast in this instance, we certainly are not elite in this situation.

I would argue this is a combination of WR/TE personnel, a massove focus on not turning the ball over and thus not forcing the ball in to risky situations unnecessarily, a focus on big plays as well as some element of play design. It is probably this last aspect that rubs people the wrong way.

No, I understand that all too well.

The huge issue in all these discussions is people assuming the other side "just doesn't understand the game enough". GTFO with that. I don't know more, but I know damn well know as much as anyone. Certainly enough to separate playcalling from execution and design and philosophy.

Please, some of us have been fairly consistent and specific over things that cause us concern. Situational awareness being one of them.

But, since we're cherry picking my blitzbeaters comment; anyone care to tackle the cluster that was going hurried after the defense was gashed earlier this year? 1st half of the GB game?

 

[Sarlacc83]

This thread is an exercise in the blowback effect. That is, when presented with facts, not only will the opposing party not give such things credence, but they will actually settle further into their beliefs that their view trumps the provided information.

It's also an exercise in fallacies and poor thinking. Fallacies such as Sports Hernia's constant references to 'worshippers' which is a poisoning the well fallacy - to the tacit belief that because a lot of people believe Bevell should be fired, that's the factual reality. This being the appeal to popular opinion fallacy. As for sloppy thinking, people take their singular, individual criticisms as more important than the overarching trend. To explain what I mean, let me draw an example from physics. If you were to look at each molecule or atom in a moving fluid (wind, say), you would find that it's actually a hodgepodge of the constituent parts traveling in many different directions. However, we notice the wind traveling west, for instance, because of the collective average of its constituent 'elements'. The individual becomes washed out by the larger whole - which is the more important trend when studied. Complaints, then, about 'empty and sets' and 'bubble screens' are those small bits which are being given undue importance against the facts presented at the beginning of this thread. Yes, we'd like to get rid of the imperfections to make everything more smooth, but at the same time, as even a hundred water molecules do not impede the flow of our aforementioned wind, the criticisms against Bevell obviously do not negate or override the fact that he has been an important piece in creating a top 10 offense and a top 5 offense by DVOA. For more than 1 year at this point - which means we have a good statistical sample at this point. No one can say this year was a simple outlier.

Eventually, though, I don't even care much anymore. It's not worth arguing about if you're in the "Bevell is fine" camp, because the reality of it is: the "Fire Bevell" crowd is only hurting their own enjoyment as they look for reasons to constantly complain. The reason they don't enjoy Bevell is that they dislike him, they are looking for justification of their dislike in whatever way possible, and are feeding a vicious cycle which is stripping away the enjoyment they could have had. This is the best time Seahawks fans have ever had; I'd rather just enjoy it as if it were and not as if I am angry because I want a Ferrari but all I have is a Ford F-150.

 

[Cartire]

And also, blitzbeaters would mean a low YPA, low air yards and low explosives. Does that describe the Seahawks offense?

Do you know what a blitz beater is? It's slants, quick outs, quick seams, and screens (protip: there's such a thing as hb and te screens. Get off the bubble). We have all those plays. And it's RUSSELLS job to audible to one of those if he sees the blitz coming. Whether or not if it happens, or how often we use them in our normal game plan doesn't mean we don't have blitz beaters. And it's definitely not Bevells fault if they're not called during a blitz.

And my comment about your take wasn't that you can't have one. It's that it has zero evidence. You're not going to convince people that what you say is correct if you don't give facts. Anecdotal basis is bad debate format. I mean, we get it already. You don't like bevell. Awesome.

 

[OkieHawk]

Any of you Bevell supporters want to explain to me his lack of blitz beaters during his entire tenure? And the thought process behind routinely going hurry up, empty set in SD and Dallas, immediately after the defense was just gutted for an extended amount of time? I'm willing to hear the new ideas.

Stats and rankings mean nothing to me. Andy Dalton had comparable stats to Peyton Manning during similar periods. You think that tells the whole story?

People doubting Cables importance should use Google. Start by zeroing in on their title differences and reason behind those differences.

Alright, what if he, for whatever reason, just doesn't do anything but vanilla the first half of the season knowing that we have the weapons to still make it work. For the last couple of years that is exactly what has happened, I'm just not sure if it's by design, or coincidence. He saves the good stuff for later knowing that teams can't scheme for them as they haven't seen the stuff yet.

This has been brought up before, and it does make sense in a weird way. If it were only for one season it would be a fluke, but ever since RW has been QB that has been the type of play calling we get. It does get a bit old though, not gonna lie.

I'm actually a believer that this regime saves plays for the marathon, totally. But, C'mon, this noise that we shouldn't criticize a dude that literally has deep outs called, against a 6 man blitz, with only 5 blocking, routinely, is ludicrous.

Luker brought up a great point too. Dude went hurry up, empty set, after his defense had been on field in 120 degree heat for 15 plays. No one would've said shit if he went 3 and out with all dive plays, give your defense a breather. C'mon.

I was merely bringing up a point, and in my last sentence said that no matter the reasoning, it is getting old. He should be able to have more SA (situational awareness) every. single. game. Maybe we could ditch the bad play caller label and just go with befuddled, because he does appear to be that during the first half of the season. I think at this point you and I are in agreement, but simply wording it differently.

 

[pehawk]

If you haven't bothered to read my comments over the years, thats on you. Acting like I haven't brought up specifics in the moment, is incorrect.

And, you're assuming I've ever criticized bubble screens, that'd be wrong. Never once have i done that. I like the play in this offense.

But, I'm curious what youre saying with screens. What types of screens are you saying Seattle is good at? HB?

We'll agree to disagree on this offense having blitz beaters prior to Arizona. There was actually a good thread after that game where all of us we're discussing the fact we saw them.

It appears you don't read the board much, actually. We had the blitz beater talk 2 weeks ago. And you don't know anything of the discussions, with specifics, after every game.

 

[RolandDeschain]

You know how you talk up a friend in front of potential suitors to help him or her out? Yeah...

Just sayin'.

 

[pehawk]

This thread is an exercise in the blowback effect. That is, when presented with facts, not only will the opposing party not give such things credence, but they will actually settle further into their beliefs that their view trumps the provided information.

It's also an exercise in fallacies and poor thinking. Fallacies such as Sports Hernia's constant references to 'worshippers' which is a poisoning the well fallacy - to the tacit belief that because a lot of people believe Bevell should be fired, that's the factual reality. This being the appeal to popular opinion fallacy. As for sloppy thinking, people take their singular, individual criticisms as more important than the overarching trend. To explain what I mean, let me draw an example from physics. If you were to look at each molecule or atom in a moving fluid (wind, say), you would find that it's actually a hodgepodge of the constituent parts traveling in many different directions. However, we notice the wind traveling west, for instance, because of the collective average of its constituent 'elements'. The individual becomes washed out by the larger whole - which is the more important trend when studied. Complaints, then, about 'empty and sets' and 'bubble screens' are those small bits which are being given undue importance against the facts presented at the beginning of this thread. Yes, we'd like to get rid of the imperfections to make everything more smooth, but at the same time, as even a hundred water molecules do not impede the flow of our aforementioned wind, the criticisms against Bevell obviously do not negate or override the fact that he has been an important piece in creating a top 10 offense and a top 5 offense by DVOA. For more than 1 year at this point - which means we have a good statistical sample at this point. No one can say this year was a simple outlier.

Eventually, though, I don't even care much anymore. It's not worth arguing about if you're in the "Bevell is fine" camp, because the reality of it is: the "Fire Bevell" crowd is only hurting their own enjoyment as they look for reasons to constantly complain. The reason they don't enjoy Bevell is that they dislike him, they are looking for justification of their dislike in whatever way possible, and are feeding a vicious cycle which is stripping away the enjoyment they could have had. This is the best time Seahawks fans have ever had; I'd rather just enjoy it as if it were and not as if I am angry because I want a Ferrari but all I have is a Ford F-150.

Or on gameday and after games they come to this board and discuss specifics, likes and dislikes, which you choose to omit from memory?

What's amazing is theres been great threads on this board, about Bevell, where a lot of smart posters are discussing specific plays and drives. Yet, you're absent from those and form an opinion on the participants. Theres been tons of times where I've actually said "nope, you're right, I didn't understand that enough and I mistakingly pinned blame on Bevell". That's happened literally dozens of times.

I've never seen Cartire or you in those threads though. Just these, actually.

 

[-The Glove-]

The Arizona game stood out to me because of 2 things:

1. We ran a lot of blitz beaters
2. Wilson audibling at the line

They both worked incredibly well in that game and I was shocked to see them. Why aren't we running these plays more and why isn't RW audibling more if he can do them so well?

 

[pehawk]

The Arizona game stood out to me because of 2 things:

1. We ran a lot of blitz beaters
2. Wilson audibling at the line

They both worked incredibly well in that game and I was shocked to see them. Why aren't we running these plays more and why isn't RW audibling more if he can do them so well?

We actually had a great discussion about that, but, it had specifics so Cartire and Sarc couldn't stand on a soapbox.

Dudes literally don't read threads, but still coming in here guessing on what people said. Lame.

 

[RolandDeschain]

I'm just waiting for the time to come where we do eventually get a new OC and our offense is better by a good margin. The results'll speak for themselves and that'll be that.

 

[Cartire]

If you haven't bothered to read my comments over the years, thats on you. Acting like I haven't brought up specifics in the moment, is incorrect.

And, you're assuming I've ever criticized bubble screens, that'd be wrong. Never once have i done that. I like the play in this offense.

But, I'm curious what youre saying with screens. What types of screens are you saying Seattle is good at? HB?

We'll agree to disagree on this offense having blitz beaters prior to Arizona. There was actually a good thread after that game where all of us we're discussing the fact we saw them.

It appears you don't read the board much, actually. We had the blitz beater talk 2 weeks ago. And you don't know anything of the discussions, with specifics, after every game.

I'm we aware of the discussions. You can talk about them all you want, but that doesn't mean anything.

Also, never stated anything about being good at hb screens or for that matter, any of the plays I mentioned. I nearly said we have them and have had them. What you guys saw in AZ was proper execution and success during the plays. This somehow translated to, "we've never done that before". That's just not true. We just weren't as good/some people have selective memory.

Also, you literally said "bubble screens? That's what you're talking about?" A few post before. Not me. I said get off bubble screens becaus of that.

 

[pehawk]

I'm just waiting for the time to come where we do eventually get a new OC and our offense is better by a good margin. The results'll speak for themselves and that'll be that.

Andy Daltons stats are same as Peyton Manning's. True bill.

Dalton....one of the all time great

 

[Cartire]

I'm just waiting for the time to come where we do eventually get a new OC and our offense is better by a good margin. The results'll speak for themselves and that'll be that.

K. Since bevell is below average, let's hear the 16 that are better. Hell, how about just 12.

I fear the day that we lose bevell and he gets replaced by a greg roman type and we return to mediocrity. We're top ten but it's not good enough apparently. We're on our way to a second consecutive title, but "whoa is us"

 

[Sarlacc83]

This thread is an exercise in the blowback effect. That is, when presented with facts, not only will the opposing party not give such things credence, but they will actually settle further into their beliefs that their view trumps the provided information.

It's also an exercise in fallacies and poor thinking. Fallacies such as Sports Hernia's constant references to 'worshippers' which is a poisoning the well fallacy - to the tacit belief that because a lot of people believe Bevell should be fired, that's the factual reality. This being the appeal to popular opinion fallacy. As for sloppy thinking, people take their singular, individual criticisms as more important than the overarching trend. To explain what I mean, let me draw an example from physics. If you were to look at each molecule or atom in a moving fluid (wind, say), you would find that it's actually a hodgepodge of the constituent parts traveling in many different directions. However, we notice the wind traveling west, for instance, because of the collective average of its constituent 'elements'. The individual becomes washed out by the larger whole - which is the more important trend when studied. Complaints, then, about 'empty and sets' and 'bubble screens' are those small bits which are being given undue importance against the facts presented at the beginning of this thread. Yes, we'd like to get rid of the imperfections to make everything more smooth, but at the same time, as even a hundred water molecules do not impede the flow of our aforementioned wind, the criticisms against Bevell obviously do not negate or override the fact that he has been an important piece in creating a top 10 offense and a top 5 offense by DVOA. For more than 1 year at this point - which means we have a good statistical sample at this point. No one can say this year was a simple outlier.

Eventually, though, I don't even care much anymore. It's not worth arguing about if you're in the "Bevell is fine" camp, because the reality of it is: the "Fire Bevell" crowd is only hurting their own enjoyment as they look for reasons to constantly complain. The reason they don't enjoy Bevell is that they dislike him, they are looking for justification of their dislike in whatever way possible, and are feeding a vicious cycle which is stripping away the enjoyment they could have had. This is the best time Seahawks fans have ever had; I'd rather just enjoy it as if it were and not as if I am angry because I want a Ferrari but all I have is a Ford F-150.

Or on gameday and after games they come to this board and discuss specifics, likes and dislikes, which you choose to omit from memory?

What's amazing is theres been great threads on this board, about Bevell, where a lot of smart posters are discussing specific plays and drives. Yet, you're absent from those and form an opinion on the participants. Theres been tons of times where I've actually said "nope, you're right, I didn't understand that enough and I mistakingly pinned blame on Bevell". That's happened literally dozens of times.

I've never seen Cartire or you in those threads though. Just these, actually.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had to post in each and every thread in order to leave markers that I read it. Believe it or not, I try not to gunk up thoughtful threads with inane thoughts. You want to fix that, ask mods for a "like" button, and I'll be sure to bump up kearly and Scotte on a frequent basis.

Thanks for your concern, though; maybe next time instead of accusing me of confirmation bias (without proof) you should try responding to the substance of my post instead of deflecting with a childish accusation.

 

[Cartire]

I'm just waiting for the time to come where we do eventually get a new OC and our offense is better by a good margin. The results'll speak for themselves and that'll be that.

Andy Daltons stats are same as Peyton Manning's. True bill.

Dalton....one of the all time great

Show me the stats. You keep saying that. And yet I know without even looking that his INT are way higher and his yards way less.

 

[pmedic920]

Bevell may be a bad OC.
BUT the way I choose to look at things, being the cheerleader that I am, is this, WE won a friggin' Super Bowl last year and we are sitting on HFA for this years playoffs.
I've seen some crap over the years that I've been a fan, I can't really bitch about what's happening these days.

I'm a HAPPY 12.
GoHawks.

Yeah, but you're just a homer and can't be trusted :sarcasm_off: :lol:

You speak truth.

But really, something is going right, that NEVER has before.
I get pissed off just as much as anybody when I see a play called that I think is stupid but I just can't complain. Seriously this has been the best couple of years in MY history of being a 12.
At least now I have hope. There has been plenty of years I had none.
Yea, I'm a homer but I've earned that title, as have many.
GoHawks.

 

[pehawk]

If you haven't bothered to read my comments over the years, thats on you. Acting like I haven't brought up specifics in the moment, is incorrect.

And, you're assuming I've ever criticized bubble screens, that'd be wrong. Never once have i done that. I like the play in this offense.

But, I'm curious what youre saying with screens. What types of screens are you saying Seattle is good at? HB?

We'll agree to disagree on this offense having blitz beaters prior to Arizona. There was actually a good thread after that game where all of us we're discussing the fact we saw them.

It appears you don't read the board much, actually. We had the blitz beater talk 2 weeks ago. And you don't know anything of the discussions, with specifics, after every game.

I'm we aware of the discussions. You can talk about them all you want, but that doesn't mean anything.

Also, never stated anything about being good at hb screens or for that matter, any of the plays I mentioned. I nearly said we have them and have had them. What you guys saw in AZ was proper execution and success during the plays. This somehow translated to, "we've never done that before". That's just not true. We just weren't as good/some people have selective memory.

Also, you literally said "bubble screens? That's what you're talking about?" A few post before. Not me. I said get off bubble screens becaus of that.

No, I asked you to be specific about the screens you say are in Seattle's attack. Just wanted to know what your talking about. There was a thread about two months about how awful the Seahawks screen game is. You didn't read or participate though.

There was already a bunch of good discussion about the Arizona game. Ironically, you weren't around to engage in that one. Or, actually none of the post game threads where specifics are discussed.

Are you the type that is to afraid of being wrong to participate in the threads, with details, around game days? Sure sounds like you have no clue of the discussions.

 

[pehawk]

I'm just waiting for the time to come where we do eventually get a new OC and our offense is better by a good margin. The results'll speak for themselves and that'll be that.

Andy Daltons stats are same as Peyton Manning's. True bill.

Dalton....one of the all time great

Show me the stats. You keep saying that. And yet I know without even looking that his INT are way higher and his yards way less.

NBC had the graphic in one of Cinncys SNF games.