Bevell Haters Unite!

[Cartire]

Also, I rarely talk X's and O's on the forum right after a game. I'm drunk and prefer to re watch the game before I make assumptions on what I thought I saw.

Also, I'm not concerned about my post count enough to post in every thread. But that doesn't mean I don't read them.

 

[Cartire]

I'm just waiting for the time to come where we do eventually get a new OC and our offense is better by a good margin. The results'll speak for themselves and that'll be that.

Andy Daltons stats are same as Peyton Manning's. True bill.

Dalton....one of the all time great

Show me the stats. You keep saying that. And yet I know without even looking that his INT are way higher and his yards way less.

NBC had the graphic in one of Cinncys SNF games.

So far, all of your evidence is "you should have already saw what I said awhile ago" and "that graphic"

How about instead of worrying about what me and sarc have read in the past, you actively engage in this debate and show the facts now.

 

[pehawk]

This thread is an exercise in the blowback effect. That is, when presented with facts, not only will the opposing party not give such things credence, but they will actually settle further into their beliefs that their view trumps the provided information.

It's also an exercise in fallacies and poor thinking. Fallacies such as Sports Hernia's constant references to 'worshippers' which is a poisoning the well fallacy - to the tacit belief that because a lot of people believe Bevell should be fired, that's the factual reality. This being the appeal to popular opinion fallacy. As for sloppy thinking, people take their singular, individual criticisms as more important than the overarching trend. To explain what I mean, let me draw an example from physics. If you were to look at each molecule or atom in a moving fluid (wind, say), you would find that it's actually a hodgepodge of the constituent parts traveling in many different directions. However, we notice the wind traveling west, for instance, because of the collective average of its constituent 'elements'. The individual becomes washed out by the larger whole - which is the more important trend when studied. Complaints, then, about 'empty and sets' and 'bubble screens' are those small bits which are being given undue importance against the facts presented at the beginning of this thread. Yes, we'd like to get rid of the imperfections to make everything more smooth, but at the same time, as even a hundred water molecules do not impede the flow of our aforementioned wind, the criticisms against Bevell obviously do not negate or override the fact that he has been an important piece in creating a top 10 offense and a top 5 offense by DVOA. For more than 1 year at this point - which means we have a good statistical sample at this point. No one can say this year was a simple outlier.

Eventually, though, I don't even care much anymore. It's not worth arguing about if you're in the "Bevell is fine" camp, because the reality of it is: the "Fire Bevell" crowd is only hurting their own enjoyment as they look for reasons to constantly complain. The reason they don't enjoy Bevell is that they dislike him, they are looking for justification of their dislike in whatever way possible, and are feeding a vicious cycle which is stripping away the enjoyment they could have had. This is the best time Seahawks fans have ever had; I'd rather just enjoy it as if it were and not as if I am angry because I want a Ferrari but all I have is a Ford F-150.

Or on gameday and after games they come to this board and discuss specifics, likes and dislikes, which you choose to omit from memory?

What's amazing is theres been great threads on this board, about Bevell, where a lot of smart posters are discussing specific plays and drives. Yet, you're absent from those and form an opinion on the participants. Theres been tons of times where I've actually said "nope, you're right, I didn't understand that enough and I mistakingly pinned blame on Bevell". That's happened literally dozens of times.

I've never seen Cartire or you in those threads though. Just these, actually.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had to post in each and every thread in order to leave markers that I read it. Believe it or not, I try not to gunk up thoughtful threads with inane thoughts. You want to fix that, ask mods for a "like" button.

Thanks for your concern, though; maybe next time instead of accusing me of confirmation bias (without proof) you should try responding to the substance of my post instead of deflecting.

Dude, you're the one that said were being biased based out of dislike. My point was, there's usually a lot of good football nerd stuff where this stuff is hashed out real time. Those discussions are specific and awesome. To act like that's not true is erroneous.

Do I seem like a dude that deflects?

 

[pehawk]

So far, all of your evidence is "you should have already saw what I said awhile ago" and "that graphic"

How about instead of worrying about what me and sarc have read in the past, you actively engage in this debate and show the facts now.

What facts? Threads on Mondays and Tuesdays?

 

[pehawk]

Late in Sunday night’s preseason game between the Cincinnati Bengals and Arizona Cardinals, NBC displayed a graphic confirming what absolutely no one on earth has ever said, imagined, suggested or thought: Andy Dalton is basically Peyton Manning.

Dalton and Peyton Manning’s numbers in the first 3 years of their careers are remarkably similar #SNF pic.twitter.com/1bqeM8B314

— SNF on NBC (@SNFonNBC) August 25, 2014

This is a great, unknown stat that once again

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/08/andy-da ... comparison

 

[seahawk12thman]

I have been a big Bevell fan since he came here. I have always thought that he helped hide a young QB's and, at times, a horrific offensive line's deficiencies and accentuates the positives. He developed and utilized the read option (which I can assure you he did not use in Minnesota) and play action to give as much of a break as possible to our passing game.

He also calls games perfectly suited to our defense - heavy on ball control and time of possession to ensure our guys get rest. But he also calls his shots downfield to get the daggers when required. He obviously has also worked big on the scramble game to ensure Russell and the receivers are on the same page when the offensive line is under siege.

Not many other coordinators could do as much with as little.

Totally agree, I love Bevell. Never understood the hate.

 

[Cartire]

Late in Sunday night’s preseason game between the Cincinnati Bengals and Arizona Cardinals, NBC displayed a graphic confirming what absolutely no one on earth has ever said, imagined, suggested or thought: Andy Dalton is basically Peyton Manning.

Dalton and Peyton Manning’s numbers in the first 3 years of their careers are remarkably similar #SNF pic.twitter.com/1bqeM8B314

— SNF on NBC (@SNFonNBC) August 25, 2014

This is a great, unknown stat that once again

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/08/andy-da ... comparison

Ohhhh. His first three years. That makes sense. Peyton was no where near his final form in his first three years. He was an interception machine.

That clears that up though. I thought you were comparing the recently.

 

[Sarlacc83]

This thread is an exercise in the blowback effect. That is, when presented with facts, not only will the opposing party not give such things credence, but they will actually settle further into their beliefs that their view trumps the provided information.

It's also an exercise in fallacies and poor thinking. Fallacies such as Sports Hernia's constant references to 'worshippers' which is a poisoning the well fallacy - to the tacit belief that because a lot of people believe Bevell should be fired, that's the factual reality. This being the appeal to popular opinion fallacy. As for sloppy thinking, people take their singular, individual criticisms as more important than the overarching trend. To explain what I mean, let me draw an example from physics. If you were to look at each molecule or atom in a moving fluid (wind, say), you would find that it's actually a hodgepodge of the constituent parts traveling in many different directions. However, we notice the wind traveling west, for instance, because of the collective average of its constituent 'elements'. The individual becomes washed out by the larger whole - which is the more important trend when studied. Complaints, then, about 'empty and sets' and 'bubble screens' are those small bits which are being given undue importance against the facts presented at the beginning of this thread. Yes, we'd like to get rid of the imperfections to make everything more smooth, but at the same time, as even a hundred water molecules do not impede the flow of our aforementioned wind, the criticisms against Bevell obviously do not negate or override the fact that he has been an important piece in creating a top 10 offense and a top 5 offense by DVOA. For more than 1 year at this point - which means we have a good statistical sample at this point. No one can say this year was a simple outlier.

Eventually, though, I don't even care much anymore. It's not worth arguing about if you're in the "Bevell is fine" camp, because the reality of it is: the "Fire Bevell" crowd is only hurting their own enjoyment as they look for reasons to constantly complain. The reason they don't enjoy Bevell is that they dislike him, they are looking for justification of their dislike in whatever way possible, and are feeding a vicious cycle which is stripping away the enjoyment they could have had. This is the best time Seahawks fans have ever had; I'd rather just enjoy it as if it were and not as if I am angry because I want a Ferrari but all I have is a Ford F-150.

Or on gameday and after games they come to this board and discuss specifics, likes and dislikes, which you choose to omit from memory?

What's amazing is theres been great threads on this board, about Bevell, where a lot of smart posters are discussing specific plays and drives. Yet, you're absent from those and form an opinion on the participants. Theres been tons of times where I've actually said "nope, you're right, I didn't understand that enough and I mistakingly pinned blame on Bevell". That's happened literally dozens of times.

I've never seen Cartire or you in those threads though. Just these, actually.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had to post in each and every thread in order to leave markers that I read it. Believe it or not, I try not to gunk up thoughtful threads with inane thoughts. You want to fix that, ask mods for a "like" button.

Thanks for your concern, though; maybe next time instead of accusing me of confirmation bias (without proof) you should try responding to the substance of my post instead of deflecting.

Dude, you're the one that said were being biased based out of dislike. My point was, there's usually a lot of good football nerd stuff where this stuff is hashed out real time. Those discussions are specific and awesome. To act like that's not true is erroneous.

Do I seem like a dude that deflects?

They are, and if it makes you feel better, I really liked the Niners breakdown Scottemojo did. I also read Fieldgulls whenever possible, too. I wish I had time to do that kind of research.

 

[pehawk]

And for the record I don't worry about what Sarc and you read or post. But, you literally don't have enough information to assume theres never specifics or its bias. That's cherry picking bullshit that I'll call out.

Theres a lot of good, in depth discussions you guys aren't aware of, obviously. Assuming there isn't grinds the debate to a halt.

 

[pehawk]

And I can tell you, on my kids life, it's the reactions in this thread that make good discussion less and less around here. There's a lot of smart people who don't have the energy to fight the responses in this very thread, should they criticize Bevell. Because, well, look at Cartires responses.

 

[Cartire]

And for the record is don't worry about what Sarc and you read or post. But, you literally don't have enough information to assume theres never specifics or its bias. That's cherry picking bullshit that I'll call out.

Theres a lot of good, in depth discussions you guys aren't aware of, obviously. Assuming there isn't grinds the debate to a halt.

I get it pehawk. You're better then us. You have been in more in depth and great discussions about it. And we weren't there. That alone should complety invalidate anything we say (and seems like it has). i guess my confusion is, why are you even posting in this thread then? The argument is over for you. And anyone smart has already agreed with you in previous threads. So this seems pointless to even be debating with us at all. I mean, if you want to counter our points with "what we said before was correct but im not going to tell you" then I don't get your end game.

 

[pehawk]

And for the record is don't worry about what Sarc and you read or post. But, you literally don't have enough information to assume theres never specifics or its bias. That's cherry picking bullshit that I'll call out.

Theres a lot of good, in depth discussions you guys aren't aware of, obviously. Assuming there isn't grinds the debate to a halt.

I get it pehawk. You're better then us. You have been in more in depth and great discussions about it. And we weren't there. That alone should complety invalidate anything we say (and seems like it has). i guess my confusion is, why are you even posting in this thread then? The argument is over for you. And anyone smart has already agreed with you in previous threads. So this seems pointless to even be debating with us at all. I mean, if you want to counter our points with "what we said before was correct but im not going to tell you" then I don't get your end game.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Literally, none.

 

[Cartire]

And I can tell you, on my kids life, it's the reactions in this thread that make good discussion less and less around here. There's a lot of smart people who don't have the energy to fight the responses in this very thread, should they criticize Bevell. Because, well, look at Cartires responses.

I don't get it at all. What was wrong with my responses? Because I asked you to prove your point? That's the cornerstone of solid debate. The only evidence in this thread that I have seen is a statement by Baldwin. Numbers confirming our top ten status both in conventional and advanced metrics. Multiple winning seasons.

The only things I've read for you is your constant belittling of us. Discrediting because we didn't participate in certain threads and a SNF graphic about Andy Dalton vs Peyton Mannings first three seasons. What that has to do with Bevell, I havent a clue. But apparently it was your take that numbers are stupid.

 

[Cartire]

And for the record is don't worry about what Sarc and you read or post. But, you literally don't have enough information to assume theres never specifics or its bias. That's cherry picking bullshit that I'll call out.

Theres a lot of good, in depth discussions you guys aren't aware of, obviously. Assuming there isn't grinds the debate to a halt.

I get it pehawk. You're better then us. You have been in more in depth and great discussions about it. And we weren't there. That alone should complety invalidate anything we say (and seems like it has). i guess my confusion is, why are you even posting in this thread then? The argument is over for you. And anyone smart has already agreed with you in previous threads. So this seems pointless to even be debating with us at all. I mean, if you want to counter our points with "what we said before was correct but im not going to tell you" then I don't get your end game.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Literally, none.

I literally don't believe you. But I can tell already you're in "nah nah nah I can't hear you" mode. You win pe. I'm signing off for the night.

 

[pehawk]

Actuall no I'm not. I just hate the immediate dismissal of any criticisms as unfounded or irrational. It's weak and always hurts discussions.

Theres always alot of specifics discussed after the games. You posted as if that has never occurred and demanded "facts". You wanted proof theres been in depth discussions all year. You assumed we couldn't have been discussing the screen game, blitz beaters, execution, game plans for 16 weeks and demanded evidence of those discussions in week 18.

Some of us come here and engage in real nerdy football talk. Next time, just assume maybe all of us have laid out sound reasoning prior. Not doing that erodes discussions and prohibits great contributions.

 

[HawkFan72]

Baldwin is just trying to increase the chance he gets a job somewhere else.

haha, exactly! I was going to say that if Baldwin really wanted Bevell to stay, he'd either keep his mouth shut or talk crap about him.

 

[Cartire]

Actuall no I'm not. I just hate the immediate dismissal of any criticisms as unfounded or irrational. It's weak and always hurts discussions.

Theres always alot of specifics discussed after the games. You posted as if that has never occurred and demanded "facts". You wanted proof theres been in depth discussions all year. You assumed we couldn't have been discussing the screen game, blitz beaters, execution, game plans for 16 weeks and demanded evidence of those discussions in week 18.

Some of us come here and engage in real nerdy football talk. Next time, just assume maybe all of us have laid out sound reasoning prior. Not doing that erodes discussions and prohibits great contributions.

Ok. I lied. I was still browsing some other sites and decided to check here real quick again before I got off. But once again I have to reply because everything you just said was blantantly false assumptions.

First. Never asked once for proof of previous post or discussions. Where did you read that I don't believe you talked about this previously. I asked you to tell me what's wrong with bevell that wasn't anecdotal. You refused. Fine. Let's move on from that.

Second, please quote in this thread where I once assumed you didn't discuss the screen game? I mean, are you just making up reasons to hate me right now? You mentioned we didn't have blitz beaters before az. I said we did. I even said that that didn't mean they were executed properly or run consistently. all I said was that it wasn't Bevells fault if they weren't called, because he would t be the one to call them. They would be audibled at the line. We've always had screens and slants and seams. I never said we were amazing at them. I never said we always used them. Why are you putting words in my mouth? It's all in text above this. Please quote anything you want.

Also, why do you keep putting me to the extreme? I don't dismiss "any and all" criticism. But I also don't do what the majority of you seem to do and blame him for everything. And to even pretend that's not the strong narrative from the anti-bevell crowd is ignorant. I also understand that he has done a lot of good for this team. And he will never get his due credit because we are not an air it out team. We can have the #1 run. Top ten everything else. #6 offensive dvoa and he still is hated on for reasons I can't fathom. Baldwin, a player many here respect, gives him high praise that's very detailed and not just cliche terms, and you guys discount it like it's meaningless.

Please explain how you are not eroding this conversation. How you are somehow having a enlighten conversation. You made up your mind, along with a bunch of others long ago. And nothing will faulter that position.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Bevell's offense just wasn't good enough this year.

Did you know that despite losing Zach Miller, Sidney Rice, Golden Tate prior to the season and Percy Harvin midseason (not to mention picking up a replacement fullback midseason), his offense only finished a pathetic SEVENTH in average yards per drive? A pathetic NINTH in points per drive and a downright unacceptable FIRST in turnovers per offensive drive?

I mean come on, he has the best O-Line in the league to work with and arguably the league's best group of 4 centers to help make protection adjustments at the LoS to account for what the defense is doing (not that we played any good defenses this year, come on). He really needs to turn this top 10 offense into a top 1 offense. Anything less just isn't acceptable.

Ya im sure Wilson being top 16 or so in both running yards and running TDs and being better than more than half the RBs in the league had nothing to do with it though :roll:

Also let me add...I dont think hes BAD there are just a couple things I would like to see improved

1. Stop using empty backfield so much, especially on 3rd and short. With how bad our Oline is why would you even go empty backfield and basically tell the D to pin their ears back and go after Russ with no threat of a run by a RB.

2. Lean heavily on Russ and Lynch while in the redzone. With those 2 we SHOULD be a lot better at scoring TDs inside the RZ. I think it was back when we were playing the 49ers that we were 26th in the league in scoring TDs in the RZ I believe. Not sure what its at now.

3. Part of this is execution by the players but I dont understand why we start off so bad most games and then heat up. The offense will do nothing for a whole half then come out and hang 20 points up like its nothing.

 

[DavidSeven]

Bevell's offense just wasn't good enough this year.

Did you know that despite losing Zach Miller, Sidney Rice, Golden Tate prior to the season and Percy Harvin midseason (not to mention picking up a replacement fullback midseason), his offense only finished a pathetic SEVENTH in average yards per drive? A pathetic NINTH in points per drive and a downright unacceptable FIRST in turnovers per offensive drive?

I mean come on, he has the best O-Line in the league to work with and arguably the league's best group of 4 centers to help make protection adjustments at the LoS to account for what the defense is doing (not that we played any good defenses this year, come on). He really needs to turn this top 10 offense into a top 1 offense. Anything less just isn't acceptable.

Ya im sure Wilson being top 16 or so in both running yards and running TDs and being better than more than half the RBs in the league had nothing to do with it though :roll:

And why wouldn't you credit Bevell for some of the success that Russell has had in running this year? You actually think Wilson's running numbers have nothing to do with play design? That they haven't specifically created plays that open up avenues for QB runs?

This is my problem with a lot of Bevell haters. Everything good that happens is a blessing bestowed by the gods of Wilson/Lynch. Everything bad that happens is presumptively the play-caller's fault.

How many Bevell threads were in the main forum the week following the Seahawks breaking their single-game record for total offense? I can tell you: zero, nada, zilch. That was 3+ hours of an offensive clinic that Bevell put on Todd Bowles (the league's hottest DC), and there was complete silence. No props, nothing. But I guarantee you, the next time Russell audibles to empty on a 3rd-and-2, we'll see 5-page thread pop up where Bevell is given all the blame.

 

[AgentDib]

The passion in these coordinator threads is surprising given how little we know for certain. It seems unlikely but the offense could have been worse this year with Sean Payton or better with Hue Jackson. Uncertainty is what makes football great and it's fun to speculate about what percentage of our offensive outcomes are due to Bevell, Cable, Pete, the opponents, our personnel, or luck and so forth.

Usage of Marshawn is the biggest uncertainty around our offense in my opinion. A lot of the drama seems manufactured but there is certainly tension there compounded by his back issues and his overall personality. I hope this does not degrade into a 30 for 30 production years from now but if it does I will be eager to see it. Maybe we'll get the info from a 30 for 30 on Harvin.

I don't agree with the criticism of empty sets. Russ is a threat to run by himself and we have gotten some really good looks out of them. Empty sets make it easier to identify the defensive alignment but require the QB to make quick decisions and throw accurate passes. Brady has made them into an art form and if RW is a QB worth as much as most here think he is then you shouldn't be opposed to giving him the power to motion Lynch to the far left.