- Sep 4, 2010
- Reaction score
- Cockeysville, Md
hawkfan68":29573tkr said:keasley45":29573tkr said:OrangeGravy":29573tkr said:I won't speak for Keasley, but the simplest explanation is the longer your ability to get to the house with your legs holds up from pee wee football to the NFL, the less time you spend Learning and developing the more nuanced passing skills required at the QB position. The earlier in your life you have to stop relying your legs, the better you'll be at the other stuff. The other option is to consciously forego running to develop the other stuff, but that's extremely difficult to do. 3rd down in the NFL is all about diagnosing pre and post snap with speed and executing that read. It's also the down where defenses are going to stress your pre and post snap skills the most, either with disguises, taking away time with blitzes, or both. Simple answer is the more mobile QBs aren't as proficient in that part of the game. They are getting much closer though. Guys like Russell, Mahomes, and even Kyler/Watson are much more passers than runners. Watson and Mahomes I would venture have the best chance at serious longevity.hawkfan68":29573tkr said:Great thread Keasley45. You have great insight and even though I may not always agree, it's always a great thing to hear and understand differing opinions.
One observation on your orignal post, in the list of top QBs, it's interesting to see that more of the mobile types of QBs aren't on the list - Wilson, Murray, Lamar Jackson, and DeShaun Watson. Mahomes is on there and Prescott only made the list in 2019. I find that very interesting. Why do you suppose that is? At first, my thought was maybe it was their height but that gets thrown out as Jackson and Watson aren't short QBs. I'm interested in hearing your take on this.
I don't think you can overstate how much being a serious threat to convert 1st downs or more as a QB limits what looks defenses are willing to give you. Once that threat goes away, they get looks they aren't used to seeing often or at the very least, aren't used to making reads and passing against. If you're used to running against certain looks when the picture gets muddy, but now you can't and have to turn that muddy picture into the right read and getting the ball out on time, things will look like Russell against cover 2. Mahomes just went through the same thing towards the end of last season and early this year. He started being more patient and not running around trying to force things as much. That along with the Chiefs running down hill more has righted their ship
That's pretty much what I woukd have said. For the qbs coming into the league that are gifted with elusiveness, they've been sought out their entire careers for that unique ability and they offenses they've played in, scripted to suit their unique talents.
I'd also offer that even for the guys that are trained to be traditional pocket qbs, the number of them that go on to be soo good that they reach the ranks of Brady, Brees and Rodgers is ridiculously small. The talent that those guys have to read a defense and react the way they do isn't normal, coachable stuff. It's on par with what you'd see a savant mathematician do and every bit as remarkable a gifted skill as Lamar's ability to elude an entire defense on the way to an impossible TD run. You just can't coach it to that level.
Thanks OrangeGravy and Keasley45. That does make a lot of sense. Which begs the question, if PC knows Wilson's weaknesses, why isn't he helping Wilson to improve those through coaching? Sounds like reading defenses is something that is coachable. You can be coached to be better at it. Of course some of the onus is on the player wanting to improve. I believe Wilson does.
As an example, IIRC, Drew Brees wasn't great his first few years but he once he was traded to New Orleans and started to work with Joe Lombardi, he improved. Maybe Wilson needs someone like a Lombardi to help him. Just a thought. I'm bringing it to coaching because, if I remember TJack also struggled with reading defenses. That was a complaint quite a bit on here about him during 2011 season when TJack was the starting QB with the Seahawks.
So I'd like to think that Russ can be coached to be better. Not Brady Or Rodgers good, but better than he is. The thing that concerns me however is that given his comments this year when questioned about some of the decisions he's made with the ball, specifically about not taking plays within the scheme and pushing the spectacular play, he's been defensive send pushed back pretty firmly, providing basically the same response this year as last. So it doesn't feel as tbough he's approaching this year or his time with Waldron as a learning experience or opportunity to grow. You'd think if that were the case, his position would be as hardened as it is in defending how HE chooses to play.
The other part of it is that Pete brought Waldron in to provide Russ the explosive offense he wanted. And before that, he had Schotty work with Russ. The OC IS the coach that is there to get Russ to do what he needs to in the flow of the scheme. Yet, in the case of Schottenheimer and now Waldron, Russ makes his money on the long ball off of play action on 1st or 2nd down. Last year and this we've been running plays that work, plays that spring wr's open across the field, and yet the result is the same. Russ for the most part does Russ. Whether that's because he cant understand it, doesn't like it, doesn't trust it, etc, he'll take the plays that offer a pretty straightforward presnap read, but a good bit of the plays, he just doesn't execute the way they are scripted.
It's been said that Schotty was brought in to be firmer on Russ. The culmination of his working with Russ was Russ not being able to beat a fairly straightforward 2 high look. Not because the plays didn't provide a solution, but because Russ didn't take them. The most extreme examples of this were obviously the Giants game and the Wildcard loss, but it was evident throughout the season. I can't imagine that for 3 years, Schotty and Russ prepped for games without planning specifically for how to improve on what Russ struggles with.
Folks keep on pointing to rollouts or moving the pocket , as being the solution to some of Russel's struggles. Would that help? Sure, in terms of protection. But it might also take a field that we already only use 1/3rd of because of Russ's league low utilization of the middle of the field, even smaller. And if your qb isn't taking obvious passes or getting the ball out in rhythm, or making the proper reads and adjustments as it is, is rolling out or not REALLY the issue?
I've said this multiple times and it's born out in Russ's avg to below average passing success rate on conversions - he isn't great at finding or hitting the receiver that is designed within the scheme to keep the chains moving. And his continual reliance on the 30 yard sideline pass over the simple crossed, middle screen, etc, in my opinion point to a guy who says he's not comfortable with the routes or the timing of the throws, despite them often being blatantly there for the taking.
So all in all, I think in shuffling through 2 OCs now in 4 years, Pete was brought in different experts to work with Russ. And they've designed plays to get Russ over the hump. Yet, it hasn't mattered. And as a result, our offense is sputtering because we aren't doing some pretty simple things.