Are we really that good through the air?

[keasley45]

Great thread Keasley45. You have great insight and even though I may not always agree, it's always a great thing to hear and understand differing opinions.

One observation on your orignal post, in the list of top QBs, it's interesting to see that more of the mobile types of QBs aren't on the list - Wilson, Murray, Lamar Jackson, and DeShaun Watson. Mahomes is on there and Prescott only made the list in 2019. I find that very interesting. Why do you suppose that is? At first, my thought was maybe it was their height but that gets thrown out as Jackson and Watson aren't short QBs. I'm interested in hearing your take on this.

I won't speak for Keasley, but the simplest explanation is the longer your ability to get to the house with your legs holds up from pee wee football to the NFL, the less time you spend Learning and developing the more nuanced passing skills required at the QB position. The earlier in your life you have to stop relying your legs, the better you'll be at the other stuff. The other option is to consciously forego running to develop the other stuff, but that's extremely difficult to do. 3rd down in the NFL is all about diagnosing pre and post snap with speed and executing that read. It's also the down where defenses are going to stress your pre and post snap skills the most, either with disguises, taking away time with blitzes, or both. Simple answer is the more mobile QBs aren't as proficient in that part of the game. They are getting much closer though. Guys like Russell, Mahomes, and even Kyler/Watson are much more passers than runners. Watson and Mahomes I would venture have the best chance at serious longevity.

I don't think you can overstate how much being a serious threat to convert 1st downs or more as a QB limits what looks defenses are willing to give you. Once that threat goes away, they get looks they aren't used to seeing often or at the very least, aren't used to making reads and passing against. If you're used to running against certain looks when the picture gets muddy, but now you can't and have to turn that muddy picture into the right read and getting the ball out on time, things will look like Russell against cover 2. Mahomes just went through the same thing towards the end of last season and early this year. He started being more patient and not running around trying to force things as much. That along with the Chiefs running down hill more has righted their ship

That's pretty much what I woukd have said. For the qbs coming into the league that are gifted with elusiveness, they've been sought out their entire careers for that unique ability and they offenses they've played in, scripted to suit their unique talents.

I'd also offer that even for the guys that are trained to be traditional pocket qbs, the number of them that go on to be soo good that they reach the ranks of Brady, Brees and Rodgers is ridiculously small. The talent that those guys have to read a defense and react the way they do isn't normal, coachable stuff. It's on par with what you'd see a savant mathematician do and every bit as remarkable a gifted skill as Lamar's ability to elude an entire defense on the way to an impossible TD run. You just can't coach it to that level.

Thanks OrangeGravy and Keasley45. That does make a lot of sense. Which begs the question, if PC knows Wilson's weaknesses, why isn't he helping Wilson to improve those through coaching? Sounds like reading defenses is something that is coachable. You can be coached to be better at it. Of course some of the onus is on the player wanting to improve. I believe Wilson does.

As an example, IIRC, Drew Brees wasn't great his first few years but he once he was traded to New Orleans and started to work with Joe Lombardi, he improved. Maybe Wilson needs someone like a Lombardi to help him. Just a thought. I'm bringing it to coaching because, if I remember TJack also struggled with reading defenses. That was a complaint quite a bit on here about him during 2011 season when TJack was the starting QB with the Seahawks.

So I'd like to think that Russ can be coached to be better. Not Brady Or Rodgers good, but better than he is. The thing that concerns me however is that given his comments this year when questioned about some of the decisions he's made with the ball, specifically about not taking plays within the scheme and pushing the spectacular play, he's been defensive send pushed back pretty firmly, providing basically the same response this year as last. So it doesn't feel as tbough he's approaching this year or his time with Waldron as a learning experience or opportunity to grow. You'd think if that were the case, his position would be as hardened as it is in defending how HE chooses to play.

The other part of it is that Pete brought Waldron in to provide Russ the explosive offense he wanted. And before that, he had Schotty work with Russ. The OC IS the coach that is there to get Russ to do what he needs to in the flow of the scheme. Yet, in the case of Schottenheimer and now Waldron, Russ makes his money on the long ball off of play action on 1st or 2nd down. Last year and this we've been running plays that work, plays that spring wr's open across the field, and yet the result is the same. Russ for the most part does Russ. Whether that's because he cant understand it, doesn't like it, doesn't trust it, etc, he'll take the plays that offer a pretty straightforward presnap read, but a good bit of the plays, he just doesn't execute the way they are scripted.

It's been said that Schotty was brought in to be firmer on Russ. The culmination of his working with Russ was Russ not being able to beat a fairly straightforward 2 high look. Not because the plays didn't provide a solution, but because Russ didn't take them. The most extreme examples of this were obviously the Giants game and the Wildcard loss, but it was evident throughout the season. I can't imagine that for 3 years, Schotty and Russ prepped for games without planning specifically for how to improve on what Russ struggles with.

Folks keep on pointing to rollouts or moving the pocket , as being the solution to some of Russel's struggles. Would that help? Sure, in terms of protection. But it might also take a field that we already only use 1/3rd of because of Russ's league low utilization of the middle of the field, even smaller. And if your qb isn't taking obvious passes or getting the ball out in rhythm, or making the proper reads and adjustments as it is, is rolling out or not REALLY the issue?

I've said this multiple times and it's born out in Russ's avg to below average passing success rate on conversions - he isn't great at finding or hitting the receiver that is designed within the scheme to keep the chains moving. And his continual reliance on the 30 yard sideline pass over the simple crossed, middle screen, etc, in my opinion point to a guy who says he's not comfortable with the routes or the timing of the throws, despite them often being blatantly there for the taking.

So all in all, I think in shuffling through 2 OCs now in 4 years, Pete was brought in different experts to work with Russ. And they've designed plays to get Russ over the hump. Yet, it hasn't mattered. And as a result, our offense is sputtering because we aren't doing some pretty simple things.

 

[OrangeGravy]

I won't speak for Keasley, but the simplest explanation is the longer your ability to get to the house with your legs holds up from pee wee football to the NFL, the less time you spend Learning and developing the more nuanced passing skills required at the QB position. The earlier in your life you have to stop relying your legs, the better you'll be at the other stuff. The other option is to consciously forego running to develop the other stuff, but that's extremely difficult to do. 3rd down in the NFL is all about diagnosing pre and post snap with speed and executing that read. It's also the down where defenses are going to stress your pre and post snap skills the most, either with disguises, taking away time with blitzes, or both. Simple answer is the more mobile QBs aren't as proficient in that part of the game. They are getting much closer though. Guys like Russell, Mahomes, and even Kyler/Watson are much more passers than runners. Watson and Mahomes I would venture have the best chance at serious longevity.

I don't think you can overstate how much being a serious threat to convert 1st downs or more as a QB limits what looks defenses are willing to give you. Once that threat goes away, they get looks they aren't used to seeing often or at the very least, aren't used to making reads and passing against. If you're used to running against certain looks when the picture gets muddy, but now you can't and have to turn that muddy picture into the right read and getting the ball out on time, things will look like Russell against cover 2. Mahomes just went through the same thing towards the end of last season and early this year. He started being more patient and not running around trying to force things as much. That along with the Chiefs running down hill more has righted their ship

That's pretty much what I woukd have said. For the qbs coming into the league that are gifted with elusiveness, they've been sought out their entire careers for that unique ability and they offenses they've played in, scripted to suit their unique talents.

I'd also offer that even for the guys that are trained to be traditional pocket qbs, the number of them that go on to be soo good that they reach the ranks of Brady, Brees and Rodgers is ridiculously small. The talent that those guys have to read a defense and react the way they do isn't normal, coachable stuff. It's on par with what you'd see a savant mathematician do and every bit as remarkable a gifted skill as Lamar's ability to elude an entire defense on the way to an impossible TD run. You just can't coach it to that level.

Thanks OrangeGravy and Keasley45. That does make a lot of sense. Which begs the question, if PC knows Wilson's weaknesses, why isn't he helping Wilson to improve those through coaching? Sounds like reading defenses is something that is coachable. You can be coached to be better at it. Of course some of the onus is on the player wanting to improve. I believe Wilson does.

As an example, IIRC, Drew Brees wasn't great his first few years but he once he was traded to New Orleans and started to work with Joe Lombardi, he improved. Maybe Wilson needs someone like a Lombardi to help him. Just a thought. I'm bringing it to coaching because, if I remember TJack also struggled with reading defenses. That was a complaint quite a bit on here about him during 2011 season when TJack was the starting QB with the Seahawks.

So I'd like to think that Russ can be coached to be better. Not Brady Or Rodgers good, but better than he is. The thing that concerns me however is that given his comments this year when questioned about some of the decisions he's made with the ball, specifically about not taking plays within the scheme and pushing the spectacular play, he's been defensive send pushed back pretty firmly, providing basically the same response this year as last. So it doesn't feel as tbough he's approaching this year or his time with Waldron as a learning experience or opportunity to grow. You'd think if that were the case, his position would be as hardened as it is in defending how HE chooses to play.

The other part of it is that Pete brought Waldron in to provide Russ the explosive offense he wanted. And before that, he had Schotty work with Russ. The OC IS the coach that is there to get Russ to do what he needs to in the flow of the scheme. Yet, in the case of Schottenheimer and now Waldron, Russ makes his money on the long ball off of play action on 1st or 2nd down. Last year and this we've been running plays that work, plays that spring wr's open across the field, and yet the result is the same. Russ for the most part does Russ. Whether that's because he cant understand it, doesn't like it, doesn't trust it, etc, he'll take the plays that offer a pretty straightforward presnap read, but a good bit of the plays, he just doesn't execute the way they are scripted.

It's been said that Schotty was brought in to be firmer on Russ. The culmination of his working with Russ was Russ not being able to beat a fairly straightforward 2 high look. Not because the plays didn't provide a solution, but because Russ didn't take them. The most extreme examples of this were obviously the Giants game and the Wildcard loss, but it was evident throughout the season. I can't imagine that for 3 years, Schotty and Russ prepped for games without planning specifically for how to improve on what Russ struggles with.

Folks keep on pointing to rollouts or moving the pocket , as being the solution to some of Russel's struggles. Would that help? Sure, in terms of protection. But it might also take a field that we already only use 1/3rd of because of Russ's league low utilization of the middle of the field, even smaller. And if your qb isn't taking obvious passes or getting the ball out in rhythm, or making the proper reads and adjustments as it is, is rolling out or not REALLY the issue?

I've said this multiple times and it's born out in Russ's avg to below average passing success rate on conversions - he isn't great at finding or hitting the receiver that is designed within the scheme to keep the chains moving. And his continual reliance on the 30 yard sideline pass over the simple crossed, middle screen, etc, in my opinion point to a guy who says he's not comfortable with the routes or the timing of the throws, despite them often being blatantly there for the taking.

So all in all, I think in shuffling through 2 OCs now in 4 years, Pete was brought in different experts to work with Russ. And they've designed plays to get Russ over the hump. Yet, it hasn't mattered. And as a result, our offense is sputtering because we aren't doing some pretty simple things.

I would only add that when a QB makes misses a throw late, puts the ball in the wrong spot, too flat, too much air, or misses a read causing a pick, you can coach the corrections in those instances. If the problem is ignoring an area or the field or certain routes, there's nothing to coach. You can point out the open guy, but until the QB attempts throws in that area, there's not much you can do. You can't coach a player into doing something they aren't comfortable doing. Well, you could give them an ultimatum and bench them until they start doing it, but that isn't happening. If Russell was attempting those throws, but missing them, you can correct that. Any route that requires a throw over an underneath defender, but in front of a safety, scares the shit out of Russell. He'll read it and see it, but he'll pump and then move off to someone else. Even those over routes to Lockett, that are our most often hit big pass plays are more times than not thrown late by Russell. A lot more of those are potential TDs that don't happen because Russell waits until Lockett clears that underneath defender even though he's not in position to make a play anyway. Often times Lockett is catching the ball within 1 yard of the boundary and if you watch the replay with the wide camera angle, Lockett was open before he gets to the hash. You can't coach fear out of players. That's a mental hurdle that requires a specialist or threat of losing your job.

Thank Chuck Noblock in MLB. He got out of bed one day and couldn't make the throw to first from the 2nd base position. Can't coach that away. Or the yips on short putts or chips if you're a golfer. It's probably not that severe with Russ cause he'll make those throws on occasion if it's final drive of the game scenario, but he sometimes won't like the Titans game. Until late 8n the game it's almost a guarantee he won't

 

[toffee]

There's been a lot of talk about how Pete and the offense would be lost without RW. There's no doubt that Russ is a supremely talented guy at what 'HE' does. He's a unique player and a gifted athlete and playmaker. But the fact remains that there have been holes in his game that, fortunately for us and for him, he's been able to cover over with his HOF talent. But the fact remains that the holes are still there and have been the source of much debate over the last few years as his ability to create on his own has declined. So i took some time to look at Russ's performance in isolation in the key area of passing 3rd downs. the results are below. What you'll see is that in that key area, Russ has been avg to below avg in each year over the last 4 years now.

View attachment 52714russel stats by J_Otte, on Flickr

* - Brady and Rodgers rank shown for context regardless of being outside of the top performers[/size]

The average pass rate on 3rd down and 1 to 11 YTG across the league was 78% in 2018, 79% in 2019, and 76% in 2020 and 2021.

The avg success rate on 3rd down across the league was 40% in 2018 (Russ was at 36%), 41% (russ was at 41%) in 2019, 43% in 2020 (Russ was at 43%), and 41% in 2021 (Russ was at 36%). So Russ has achieved average play only twice in 4 years.

So the obvious thing that stands out is that despite Russel's high completion percentage, low TO ratio, long ball prowess and QBR, over the last 4 years, he's never been better than middle of the pack in terms of pass success rate on 3rd down and to go distances between 1 and 11 yards ( i didnt realize that i had the sort parameter off by a yard, but adjusting to 3rd and 10 doesnt change the result significantly ). Note that there were ties at various percentages, so the rank is +/- a few spots as the overall #of positions doesnt account for ties.

It was also notable that in 2018 and 2019 Brady's #s were surprisingly low, so i looked at where he ranked when passing on 1st and 2nd down at the same distance. His rate in 2018 was 58%, 2nd only to Brees at 62%. Rodgers, who's percentage also wasnt great on 3rd, turned out to be only 50% on 1st and 2nd down, which was in the bottom half of the league. In 2019, Brady was at 49%, also good for only bottom half of the league, while Rodgers was at 51%, good for middle of the pack. Rodgers' poor 39% rate on 3rd down in 2021 has been offset by a 55% success rate on 1st and 2nd down, 4th best rate in the league, while Brady is a tick better at 56%.

2018 was Rodgers last year with McCarthy, while 2018 and 2019 were Brady's last years with NE and a sharp decline from his 54% success rate in 2017 , 3rd best percentage, and 52% in 2016, 6th best percentage. I think its a fair assumption that the NE brass likely saw the sharp decline in Brady's numbers as a sign that maybe his time in NE was coming to an end. Notable that in 2021, Mac jones has cracked the upper ranks in terms of his 3rd pass success rating.

So given the fact that Brady's 1st and 2nd down numbers offset his poor 3rd down success rate, i took a look at how Russel faired on early downs vs 3rd down at the same down and distance. the results are below

2018 51% success rate (52% avg), between 17th and 20th overall (3 tied at 51%)
2019 54% success rate (51% avg), between 5th and 9th overall (4 tied at 54%)
2020 56% success rate (53% avg), between 8th 13th overall (5 tied at 56%)
2021 52% success rate (53% avg), between 17th and 23rd overall (6 tied at 52%)

The league avg passing on 1st and 2nd down by year:

2018 was 54% and we passed at 41%
2019 was 53% and we passed at 49%
2020 was 54% and we passed at 56%
2021 was 53% and we passed at 53%

So overall, Russel's ability to consistently move the chains with his arm is middle of the pack in the league, to below the middle of the pack, going back 4 years now. his best overall year in the past 4, passing on downs 1 through 3 was 2019, when we passed at a 49% rate on downs 1 and 2 and 75% on 3rd down (both below the league avg in terms of pass %). Going above that % or below it has seen his success rate drop.

Also worth noting is that since the start of the Let Russ Cook campaign, our running success rate on 3rd down has gone from top 5-10, to the lower half of the league, despite sporting solid rush ypc situationally and for the season.

So for all of the talk that the offense (and Pete) have benefited from Russ carrying them (its often been said that Pete is lost without Russ), the stats pretty clearly prove otherwise. When we rely on the pass to get us by and move the chains, we get far from elite play at the QB position. Russ hasnt come close to top 10 in passing on 3rd down in the last 4 years and has only been buoyed by a solid top 10 finish passing on downs 1 and 2 once in the last 4 years and that was in 2019 when our offense was most balanced.

So the conspiracy theories can churn, and the idea that we cant possibly be any better post Russ than we've been with him might be true because the guy has a special ability, but the reality is that as Russ has shouldered more of the burden and we've gone away from 'Peteball', our success has dropped sharply. our offense has become predictable in that most any good defense can stop Russ and we are failing to consistently move the chains when the ball is in his hands .

The above also supports the observation that our offense has become entirely boom or bust. if there isn't a big play to be made, we struggle mightily to be just average in making the small ones. And that is directly a reflection of our QB's style of play. Its not Waldron, its not Pete, its Russ.

And as far as whoever might be under center in the future, the bar they have to reach to surpass Russ's performance in key, measurable passing situations doesn't require 'elite' play based on the performance he's recorded now since 2018. We might miss out on the incredible comebacks that he's gifted us with over his tenure, but maybe if we were just top 10 to 15 in passing success rate, we wouldn't need the spectacular finish.

All of the above has been supported by additional digging into his performance this year relative to our success when our run pass ratio ticks below 50%. That can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=177963

The statistical data was sourced from:

http://www.sharpfootballstats.com/situa ... -off-.html

This stats is jump starting the debate if PeteBall made Russ, or Russ saved Pete's azz.
In my humble opinion, Russ indeed made PeteBall great, he lifted PeteBall to new height. He was not just a game manager, he was that elite game manager who could play hero ball when thing got desperate.

Russ was created by almighty to play Peteball, together, it's unstoppable.

Then one night, Russ woke up and think he could play full time hero ball. Quick route to MVP and first team all-pro. But he might not be cut out for that, he needs PeteBall as much as PeteBall needs him.

 

[keasley45]

This stats is jump starting the debate if PeteBall made Russ, or Russ saved Pete's azz.
In my humble opinion, Russ indeed made PeteBall great, he lifted PeteBall to new height. He was not just a game manager, he was that elite game manager who could play hero ball when thing got desperate.

Russ was created by almighty to play Peteball, together, it's unstoppable.

Then one night, Russ woke up and think he could play full time hero ball. Quick route to MVP and first team all-pro. But he might not be cut out for that, he needs PeteBall as much as PeteBall needs him.

I honestly don't even know what Peteball is, but a concept based on limiting the difficulty inherent in relying on an overly complex passing scheme to make your offense go. Rather, rooting it in a scheme that is based on playing sound, aggressive ball in all phases of the game, with qb play that emphasizes taking what the defense gives you and then pushing the long ball off of the run.

On offense, its:

1. Not relying on over complex passing schemes to win, but rather balance, error free play.
2. Taking what the defense gives you in the passing game.
3. Two plays in every play. The play that is called, and the one that happens when the called play breaks down (extend the play).
4. Hit the long ball off of the run.

5. Take care of the ball

If you listen to Pete's pressers over the last two years, he's repeated that mantra consistently, because that's not what was happening and hasn't been for a while.

I'd argue that if Peteball is what is described above, we were only ever partly successful on the qb side with Russ because he always struggled to take the plays that were there. Russ would quickly go to that other tenet of Peteball, which was that there was the play that's called, and then there's the play that comes after, if that play breaks down. Drew mentioned this aspect in an interview a few days ago. Russ would quickly bail on taking what was available and because he was masterful at extending plays, simply work there. But that's actually failing at Peteball, but still making it work. He was the ultimate arbiter of whether the play worked or not, based on how good he was at executing it, whether he could actually see it, and his own tendency to want to always make the big play.

So what we've had with Russ is a version of Peteball that was skewed toward point 3 above:

bailing on the called play and executing the play that came after via scrambling.

RUSS decided what plays were viable based on who he is. For years, he wasn't held accountable for his decisions. And in the end, he became inflexible in wanting to run it his way and deflecting criticism for not making the plays that were available toward insisting the plays werent good. For two yesrs now, Pete could be heard constantly asking that the qb take what was there. And they were there.

So I'd argue we've never actually seen Peteball run. We saw Russ execute a version of it based on his own strengths and weaknesses, and then Pete compensating with the run to help a qb who wasn't effective taking what the defense provided. That yin and yang became known as Peteball. What we actually only ever saw was the creation of Russball, out of the tenets of Peteball.

And Pete hurt himself in all of this because he never called Russ out, praising him even when technically he was failing (the LOB players called our exactly this). And so if the coach is calling what's happening, success, and that success is all about the comeback ( even though many of those comebacks shouldn't have been necessary with better play) the long ball, the creativity... then he's basically underwriting Russ's stance that the plays don't work, or that they aren't effective enough. AND so then the correction that Pete demands via the run, but avoiding speaking out on what the real problem is, makes him look like a Neanderthal offensive mind.

Peteball is still on the horizon. Russball is now in Denver

 

[keasley45]

And what Peteball will look like moving forward, depends on how well the qb does point 3 above.

TJack wasn't great, but could extend plays.

Matt wasn't careful with the ball, but could do point 2 above

Russ also wasn't good at point 2, but could extend plays.

Pete's correction in each case of the above shortfalls was to rely on situational ball, and running more to hit the long TD, or to get the defense to honor the run, so that hitting what the defense gave was easier.

 

[sc85sis]

I honestly don't even know what Peteball is, but a concept based on limiting the difficulty inherent in relying on an overly complex passing scheme to make your offense go. Rather, rooting it in a scheme that is based on playing sound, aggressive ball in all phases of the game, with qb play that emphasizes taking what the defense gives you and then pushing the long ball off of the run.

On offense, its:

1. Not relying on over complex passing schemes to win, but rather balance, error free play.
2. Taking what the defense gives you in the passing game.
3. Two plays in every play. The play that is called, and the one that happens when the called play breaks down (extend the play).
4. Hit the long ball off of the run.

5. Take care of the ball

If you listen to Pete's pressers over the last two years, he's repeated that mantra consistently, because that's not what was happening and hasn't been for a while.

I'd argue that if Peteball is what is described above, we were only ever partly successful on the qb side with Russ because he always struggled to take the plays that were there. Russ would quickly go to that other tenet of Peteball, which was that there was the play that's called, and then there's the play that comes after, if that play breaks down. Drew mentioned this aspect in an interview a few days ago. Russ would quickly bail on taking what was available and because he was masterful at extending plays, simply work there. But that's actually failing at Peteball, but still making it work. He was the ultimate arbiter of whether the play worked or not, based on how good he was at executing it, whether he could actually see it, and his own tendency to want to always make the big play.

So what we've had with Russ is a version of Peteball that was skewed toward point 3 above:

bailing on the called play and executing the play that came after via scrambling.

RUSS decided what plays were viable based on who he is. For years, he wasn't held accountable for his decisions. And in the end, he became inflexible in wanting to run it his way and deflecting criticism for not making the plays that were available toward insisting the plays werent good. For two yesrs now, Pete could be heard constantly asking that the qb take what was there. And they were there.

So I'd argue we've never actually seen Peteball run. We saw Russ execute a version of it based on his own strengths and weaknesses, and then Pete compensating with the run to help a qb who wasn't effective taking what the defense provided. That yin and yang became known as Peteball. What we actually only ever saw was the creation of Russball, out of the tenets of Peteball.

And Pete hurt himself in all of this because he never called Russ out, praising him even when technically he was failing (the LOB players called our exactly this). And so if the coach is calling what's happening, success, and that success is all about the comeback ( even though many of those comebacks shouldn't have been necessary with better play) the long ball, the creativity... then he's basically underwriting Russ's stance that the plays don't work, or that they aren't effective enough. AND so then the correction that Pete demands via the run, but avoiding speaking out on what the real problem is, makes him look like a Neanderthal offensive mind.

Peteball is still on the horizon. Russball is now in Denver

Pete is all about building guys up instead of tearing them down, but he will correct them if he feels it's needed. I think it's pretty clear he's tried the last year or so with Russ, and that was causing the friction between them. We just don't know how much happened privately prior to the last couple of years. And that's something only he and Russ will know.

 

[sutz]

Pete is pretty big on not airing dirty laundry in public, too. That, as much as anything, led to the demise of the LOB IMO. Love them or not, both Sherm and Thomas had some public ugliness wrapped up in their departures. That does speak to some internal dissention that we fans don't know the whole story of.

 

[sc85sis]

Pete is pretty big on not airing dirty laundry in public, too. That, as much as anything, led to the demise of the LOB IMO. Love them or not, both Sherm and Thomas had some public ugliness wrapped up in their departures. That does speak to some internal dissention that we fans don't know the whole story of.

Yep, rule number one: protect the team. Those guys broke it repeatedly the last year-ish until Pete had enough and they were gone. Same with Bennett. He didn't necessarily dump them, but he and John didn't go out of their way to keep them either. Yet he always said the door was open because he's always willing to forgive. Pete really does approach it as a teacher or a dad with his kids.

 

[keasley45]

Pete is pretty big on not airing dirty laundry in public, too. That, as much as anything, led to the demise of the LOB IMO. Love them or not, both Sherm and Thomas had some public ugliness wrapped up in their departures. That does speak to some internal dissention that we fans don't know the whole story of.

A lot of it has been hinted at. There was an anonymous quote attributed to the LOB where they were frustrated at Pete not calling out Russ for for playing badly... and I'm paraphrasing but it was something to the effect of 'what are you talking about? He sucked...' . So that points not to an offense who's scheme was flawed, but rather a QB who wasn't executing properly, placing disproportional stress on a defense... but then not being held accountable because he was able to win it anyway.

That's fine for the end result. That's fine for the stats. But it's nit sustainable to essentially condone subpar play from yiur qb, expecting the other areas of the team to compensate, never address the issue, and then have the myth that the qb is the savior, flourish. I'd be pissed too.

All of the details that make up the book are yet to be revealed, but im pretty confident the plot of this movie is set.

Confirmation? As big of an axe as the D would have to grind with Pete if was the offense in its concept that was flawed... where has there ever been criticism directly of the scheme, the plays or what was being run? They've had plenty of opportunity to say ' the offense or playcalling was a liability...'. Nope. The criticism has been squarely directed at Russ and Pete's handling of him.

 

[keasley45]

Yep, rule number one: protect the team. Those guys broke it repeatedly the last year-ish until Pete had enough and they were gone. Same with Bennett. He didn't necessarily dump them, but he and John didn't go out of their way to keep them either. Yet he always said the door was open because he's always willing to forgive. Pete really does approach it as a teacher or a dad with his kids.

I think he also knows he dealt those guys a tough hand, building them into a monster, but then undercutting them by bending the rules for competition and accountability for his qb and expecting his guys to just make up for it and keep games within reach... all so Russ could win the game when he was free to do what he wanted, rather than perfecting his craft and just doing what was asked and designed to work.

 

[sc85sis]

Pete definitely bears some responsibility for babying Russ - and to some extent all his guys - at times. On the other hand, he'd never succeed in trying to be an old-school screamer. It's just not who he is. And I think he's correct that the younger generation now doesn't respond to that the way guys did back in the day. He's not perfect, and neither are the players. But they've done pretty well over the years, and that starts with the culture Pete and John have created in Seatle. It speaks well for them that despite any quibbles, guys have come back to hang around the team after they've retired.

 

[justafan]

You dont treat your thoroughbreds and leader like plowhorses. Even Lombardi knew this and treated Star differently.Most great coaches do this.

 

[keasley45]

You dont treat your thoroughbreds and leader like plowhorses. Even Lombardi knew this and treated Star differently.Most great coaches do this.

You don't mandate that some players do their jobs correctly but others are allowed to fail and then praised for how they play, even if they make it 'ok'.

Great leaders don't do that. Do they have special carve outs for players with seniority? Sure. Will Rodgers have to compete for his job everyday in practice? No. But they are also accountable for doing their job correctly and have to be the model for that accountability. I don't ever recall hearing anything remotely similar about any top tier qbs - having other teammates frustrated at the qb isn't held accountable.

That's a recipe for the same kind of collapse that occured in Seattle.

 

[sutz]

I had been wondering over the past few years about Russ and his private mini-camps he always held with the WR corps. Were they actually working on skills or was it just a bunch of practicing deep passes and scramble drills?

I mean, did they even practice any other routes receivers do, or was it just long shots? The reporters should ask the receivers.

 

[justafan]

Wilson did what he could with the tools he had.He will never be Brady or Manning or Brees. Nobody should expect that.99% of all QBs in the history of the NFL never reach that level.

The players complaining were the baskets cases that were a big part of the collapse.

 

[keasley45]

Wilson did what he could with the tools he had.He will never be Brady or Manning or Brees. Nobody should expect that.99% of all QBs in the history of the NFL never reach that level.

The players complaining were the baskets cases that were a big part of the collapse.

Basketcases?

I dont know many people who guve 200% of themselves to their job / teammates and are held to a high standard of accountability who would be ok with having to carry the water for a guy who doesn't do his job correctly but gets a pass because most of the time he fixes it, but to be able to fix it, forces an undue burden on them.

That dog don't hunt. If the mantra is - do your job and be accountable, everybody should be held to that standard. Especially the leadership.

 

[Appyhawk]

Why is EVERY and I mean EVERY John63 post, some form of defense, excuse for RW or defiance of any critique of Russell Wilson? John are you one of his secret trans gender lovers???? Maybe on the payroll???

I only ask about being a lover, because according to the media, teachers unions, and government, everyone today is either gay or transgendered and if they aren't they want to be and haven't discovered themselves yet.

Seems like you (and me) and whatever your political affiliation is are the only ones who haven't discovered our true selves. In any case there is little to no football content in this post. Take the rest of it somewhere else and stick to football here.

 

[justafan]

That is an extremely naive view of the world. A top 10 QB will always be treated better than a SS or CB. Its the most difficult and demanding job in sports. Any player who cries about that needs to shut up, grow up and worry about doing his job.

 

[keasley45]

That is an extremely naive view of the world. A top 10 QB will always be treated better than a SS or CB. Its the most difficult and demanding job in sports. Any player who cries about that needs to shut up, grow up and worry about doing his job.

Is it now? That the leader of a team or organization shouldn't be the model for accountability and performance? Show me where that isn't the case and I'll show you leadership that is or will ultimately fail.

Just ask the Broncos.

Or the former Seahawks who have been saying for years that the problem with Russ was that he wasn't held to the same standard.

If the #1 guy doesn't perform like a #1 and isn't called out for it or doesn't exhibit the work ethic, high standards, preparation, accuracy, and accountability, the operation will fail.

 

[Jville]

I had been wondering over the past few years about Russ and his private mini-camps he always held with the WR corps. Were they actually working on skills or was it just a bunch of practicing deep passes and scramble drills?

I mean, did they even practice any other routes receivers do, or was it just long shots? The reporters should ask the receivers.

That's a question I'd like to hear reporters address as well.

And ...... it is my understanding that a portion of previous in season practice was reserved for Russell Wilson improvisation exercises. I'd like the reporters to inquire if Seahawks practices are doing the same with Geno. Or if instead, they repurposed that previous practice allocation for other needed drills.

By the way ......... this is a thread loaded with excellent posts and conversation.
Well done everyone!