49ers will implement Seahawks defense

[Mistashoesta]

It’s been said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If so, the Seattle Seahawks may have to look no further than the San Francisco 49ers.

According to KNBR radio, the 49ers will now implement the Seahawks defense. New 49ers coach Kyle Shanahan joined the “Murph and Mac Show” on Friday and had the following to say about Seattle’s defensive tactics.

“Playing Seattle over the years and knowing how hard that system is to go against. It’s not necessarily how hard it is, it’s how sound it is. They make you work for everything. It’s always an eight man front. It’s very tough to run the ball against. And they’re very sound in their coverages. You can get some completions and things like that, but they make you work all the way down the field.”

I personally hope they can turn that franchise around (just shy of surpassing us of course. They have too much history to be operating in current state of disfunction they are in.

http://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2017/0 ... s-defense/

 

[Trenchbroom]

Great. More competition for the players we need for our system.

 

[Coug_Hawk08]

GL finding the FS that makes it all work.

 

[Sports Hernia]

Good luck with that. Richard Sherman's, Kamtrak's, and Earl Thomas's don't grow on trees.

 

[Rahawk]

GL finding the FS that makes it all work.

There's a few good coverage safeties in this draft and it's not like they won't have draft position to get them. But they will definitely need to find one that's for sure as we saw just how important a stud at free safety is first hand this season when we lost e.t.

 

[5_Golden_Rings]

Great. More competition for the players we need for our system.

It's not like this system has great needs of specialized guys like the 3-4. You don't need three 2-gap guys. Only 1 or 2, depending on the call. You certainly don't need the brightest guys, as the system is more about reacting and hitting hard than exotic fronts and disguising coverage (which is why it is so good for today's NFL, where the college game is so far removed from the Pro that players have steeper learning curves).

Playing the single high look with 8 in the box does require a good coverage safety, but every system runs that look, so every team already needs that.

As for tall, rangy corners, every system ALSO wants that, so again, no new competition.


The thing that makes this scheme unique is what goes on up front and the fact that it's based more on letting athletes be athletes than outsmarting anyone. What goes on up front, however, is less specialized than a 3-4 defense, as it only needs one third to one half of those beastly men.

What I'm getting at is this system doesn't need rare mountainous guys as much as it needs athletes, and there are plenty of those.

 

[Marvin49]

Just want to be clear before I say this that I'm not saying Jimmie Ward=Earl Thomas...

...but Jimmie Ward may just end up as FS and he's that speedy safety with Range that could make it work. As for the thumper Kam Chancellor Type, they've got Eric Reid (tho in last year) and a bigger guy I've liked for awhile...Jaquaski Tartt.

At corner Rashard Robinson is tall (6'2") and lanky and played well at the end of the year.

Point being is that they won't be selecting a safety or likely ANY DB early in the draft because its one of the few positions where they've got some guys who can really play. I haven't even mentioned Antoine Bethea...but I suspect he may not be on the team when its said and done. He's best years are long behind him.

The Leo position however...no idea. Lynch? Maybe? Myles Garrett if he falls to 2? Who knows.

 

[NINEster]

Times like this makes you realize how underappreciated that Fangio front 7 was at its peak.

Complete studs at LBs, the likes of which we haven't seen in a 3-4 corps since the '80s Giants and Saints. Even had a one year rental stud LB in Borland.

Monster RDE in Smith.

Decent NT in Soapaga.

Good LDE in McDonald.

It's totally Baalke's fault he couldn't elevate it to a truly historic level. Just one or two FA DBs would have made it truly spectacular. Hindsight is 20/20 but doesn't look like salary cap issues would have been a problem long term...

I'm not so sure that the 4-3 Under, Carroll Edition is that easy to replicate. The Jaguars and Falcons have yet to even approach the defenses we've seen even under Manusky/Singletary, let alone the 2011 Seahawks.

Not going to be a homer and say that Lynch & Co will get those studs and the 49er D will be rocking in 3 years, but I'll be optimistic at whatever they attempt to do.

This move to the 4-3 might be necessary from the point of view of the Niners once having too many LBs to now having too few.

 

[Popeyejones]

Great. More competition for the players we need for our system.

It's not like this system has great needs of specialized guys like the 3-4.

Agreed, but I think you're overstating it a little bit.

It's not random chance that 3 of the 4 teams Earl Mitchell is meeting with are the Hawks, Falcons, and 49ers (the 4th is the Broncos, probably because his old DC Vance Joseph is the new HC there and Joseph runs a 4-3/3-4 hybrid pretty similar to the 4-3 under that the Hawks, Falcons, and 9ers will all be running).

http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nfl/san-fr ... 68419.html

 

[Largent80]

Good for them. However we can't even run our own system now.

 

[chris98251]

So our defense is so simple even a 49er can do it is what I am reading.

Not even a snap and talking about how great their defense is.

I look at it this way.

First they had the Bismarck with Harbaugh, history knows what happened.

Then The Lusitania with Tomsula, we knew this was going to go down quickly with all hands on board.

Then we have Kelly, savior, unsinkable, like ..... the Titanic.

 

[ringless]

They can implement it, but they will not execute it. The two are not synonymous when it comes to results. It was more than just the defense but we can start there. Earl Thomas, literally teleported around the field and always seemed to be in the right spot at the right time with his uncanny instinct and closing speed. There isn't another Earl Thomas in the NFL. You arguably had one of the best season ever by a CB in what Sherman was able to accomplish, or prevent. Kam himself literally instilled fear into opposing teams with his big hits in more of an enforcer role. This is a team that created 39 turnovers in a season, 43 sacks, and 111 passes defensed.... Who knows how many tackles for a loss.

It had an offense that complimented the defense. Mentally abusing the opposition between what Lynch, and Wilson were able to create. We have to remember they were playing against real people like you and me. When you are getting the shit beat out of you, and nothing is going your way at some point you are going to have some doubts, a lack of discipline, and you could see the life be sucked out of the teams Seattle played.

The thing I remember the most however about Seattle games was the field position battle. It almost seemed as if teams spent a lot of times slowly moving backwards on the field as opposed to forwards. They get the ball on the 20, move it a few yards, the Seattle Defense makes a stop, sack, whatever it was they always seemed to be doing which resulted in an inevitable punt eventually. Seattle would get the ball and get a 1st down or two, before John Ryan would boom it down the field. The next drive would start on the 12. It just seemed to be how the average drive would go.

You could see the energy on the field which hasn't been there. Seattle seemed to celebrate after every play, even kickoffs because at that time. Every play was a big play to them. (You don't see that anymore)

You aren't going to replicate, and execute what Seattle did without all three phases that complimented each other like nothing else could. Or that energy they displayed which in itself is immeasurable and only something that can be felt.

 

[Popeyejones]

So our defense is so simple even a 49er can do it is what I am reading.
.

or the 9ers defense from the mid-90s is so simple that even the Seahawks can dot it

(Pete Carroll iirc learned the 4-3 under when it was George Seifert's defense for the 9ers and PC came on as DC for two years. It was the same front with same assignments but just different terminology -- "Leo" was called the "Elephant", and was Charles Haley's position even back into the 80s)

 

[Maulbert]

So our defense is so simple even a 49er can do it is what I am reading.
.

or the 9ers defense from the mid-90s is so simple that even the Seahawks can dot it

(Pete Carroll iirc learned the 4-3 under when it was George Seifert's defense for the 9ers and PC came on as DC for two years. It was the same front with same assignments but just different terminology -- "Leo" was called the "Elephant", and was Charles Haley's position even back into the 80s)

Except Jerry Burns ran the 4-3 in Minnesota after he replaced Bud Grant in the late 80's when Carroll was his DB coach. A job he had, in fact, in the 1987-88 season when the 8-7 Vikings upset Walsh's 13-2 49ers at Candlestick 36-24 in the divisional round.

Not everything leads back to the 49ers dynasty.

 

[chris98251]

So our defense is so simple even a 49er can do it is what I am reading.
.

or the 9ers defense from the mid-90s is so simple that even the Seahawks can dot it

(Pete Carroll iirc learned the 4-3 under when it was George Seifert's defense for the 9ers and PC came on as DC for two years. It was the same front with same assignments but just different terminology -- "Leo" was called the "Elephant", and was Charles Haley's position even back into the 80s)

Except Jerry Burns ran the 4-3 in Minnesota after he replaced Bud Grant in the late 80's when Carroll was his DB coach. A job he had, in fact, in the 1987-88 season when the 8-7 Vikings upset Walsh's 13-2 49ers at Candlestick 36-24 in the divisional round.

Not everything leads back to the 49ers dynasty.

Yeah everyone forgets what Alan Page and that secondary did back then, LOB with Russell Wilson,Purple People Eaters with Fran Tarkenton, don't see any 49ers there. Well they did have a Golfer that played QB and got routinely beat up by the Rams around that time.

 

[5_Golden_Rings]

So our defense is so simple even a 49er can do it is what I am reading.

Not even a snap and talking about how great their defense is.

I look at it this way.

First they had the Bismarck with Harbaugh, history knows what happened.

Then The Lusitania with Tomsula, we knew this was going to go down quickly with all hands on board.

Then we have Kelly, savior, unsinkable, like ..... the Titanic.

Even according to former players like Steven Jackson, the 49ers defense under Harbaugh was very complex, while the Seahawk defense is simple but the players hit extremely hard (he was asked which was more physical, and said the 49ers were more complex and confusing, but the Seahawks were more physical). Why? It's like I said: this defense (which goes back a lot longer than the Seahawks) is designed to be easier to pick up and with less to think about so the athletes can let their instincts guide them.

In fact, this same defense, ran in 1994 the early 2000s by to the 49ers, is why the 1994 49er team was able to bring in so many different free agents and have them all gel into a really good defense that year. It doesn't take two or three years of learning and experience like the various 3-4 defenses do (especially the one that are primarily 2-gap defenses).

More, this is why Atlanta's defense got so much better by the second half of the season despite starting so many rookies.


It's predicated on letting the player's instincts and ability guide them to making plays, rather than on exotic schemes where the quarterback and line are confused into making mistakes. And for today's game, it's the superior scheme.

They can implement it, but they will not execute it. The two are not synonymous when it comes to results. It was more than just the defense but we can start there. Earl Thomas, literally teleported around the field and always seemed to be in the right spot at the right time with his uncanny instinct and closing speed. There isn't another Earl Thomas in the NFL. You arguably had one of the best season ever by a CB in what Sherman was able to accomplish, or prevent. Kam himself literally instilled fear into opposing teams with his big hits in more of an enforcer role. This is a team that created 39 turnovers in a season, 43 sacks, and 111 passes defensed.... Who knows how many tackles for a loss.

It had an offense that complimented the defense. Mentally abusing the opposition between what Lynch, and Wilson were able to create. We have to remember they were playing against real people like you and me. When you are getting the shit beat out of you, and nothing is going your way at some point you are going to have some doubts, a lack of discipline, and you could see the life be sucked out of the teams Seattle played.

The thing I remember the most however about Seattle games was the field position battle. It almost seemed as if teams spent a lot of times slowly moving backwards on the field as opposed to forwards. They get the ball on the 20, move it a few yards, the Seattle Defense makes a stop, sack, whatever it was they always seemed to be doing which resulted in an inevitable punt eventually. Seattle would get the ball and get a 1st down or two, before John Ryan would boom it down the field. The next drive would start on the 12. It just seemed to be how the average drive would go.

You could see the energy on the field which hasn't been there. Seattle seemed to celebrate after every play, even kickoffs because at that time. Every play was a big play to them. (You don't see that anymore)

You aren't going to replicate, and execute what Seattle did without all three phases that complimented each other like nothing else could. Or that energy they displayed which in itself is immeasurable and only something that can be felt.

This post is pretty much spot on.

The scheme doesn't make this defense, the players do. What makes this scheme great for today's game is that it DOESN'T rely on complicated, exotic bull crap, but is instead streamlined so that great players can be great.

 

[Marvin49]

So our defense is so simple even a 49er can do it is what I am reading.
.

or the 9ers defense from the mid-90s is so simple that even the Seahawks can dot it

(Pete Carroll iirc learned the 4-3 under when it was George Seifert's defense for the 9ers and PC came on as DC for two years. It was the same front with same assignments but just different terminology -- "Leo" was called the "Elephant", and was Charles Haley's position even back into the 80s)

Except Jerry Burns ran the 4-3 in Minnesota after he replaced Bud Grant in the late 80's when Carroll was his DB coach. A job he had, in fact, in the 1987-88 season when the 8-7 Vikings upset Walsh's 13-2 49ers at Candlestick 36-24 in the divisional round.

Not everything leads back to the 49ers dynasty.

I think his point was that it didn't start in Seattle either.

No matter though. Seattle over the last few years has had one of the best defenses in league history and that isn't all scheme. It only makes sense that a team would look to people who were successful to run their D and Shanahan said that he has played that D ALOT and has respect for it...so that why they first tried to get Gus Bradley and are now settling on Saleh.

They may run a different scheme but the Niners will feature different players with different skillsets. Much ado about nothing.

 

[5_Golden_Rings]

So our defense is so simple even a 49er can do it is what I am reading.
.

or the 9ers defense from the mid-90s is so simple that even the Seahawks can dot it

(Pete Carroll iirc learned the 4-3 under when it was George Seifert's defense for the 9ers and PC came on as DC for two years. It was the same front with same assignments but just different terminology -- "Leo" was called the "Elephant", and was Charles Haley's position even back into the 80s)

Except Jerry Burns ran the 4-3 in Minnesota after he replaced Bud Grant in the late 80's when Carroll was his DB coach. A job he had, in fact, in the 1987-88 season when the 8-7 Vikings upset Walsh's 13-2 49ers at Candlestick 36-24 in the divisional round.

Not everything leads back to the 49ers dynasty.

(a) It isn't about the 4-3. It's about the specific variation of the 4-3.
(b) Some of the fronts used, especially the one with the "tilted DT," actually originated with Tom Landry and the 1970s Cowboys (he had an end or DT line up off the line, called "flexed", sometimes at an angle; this was probably the fore-bearer to this). Additionally, Landry was among the first to pioneer the over/under fronts, along with Hank Stram of Kansas City contributed to the fronts.

As far as the mixing of one gap and two gap in the specific 4-3 that uses an over or under front, with the elephant rusher (now called Leo), all I know is that it goes at least as far back as the 90s with George Seifert and with Pete Carroll.

https://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/201 ... continued/

Carroll worked on the same staff with Kiffin at Arkansas and with the Minnesota Vikings and claims Kiffin as his primary defensive influence. Along with the 4-3 Under, Carroll will be using a pass-rushing variation that was first popularized by George Seifert in San Francisco. Looking to create mismatches anywhere he could against opposing offensive lines, Seifert allowed his weakside defensive end to move around his defensive formation to rush the passer from either side of the defense from a two-point stance. Players like Charles Haley, Chris Doleman, Rickey Jackson and Tim Harris filled this “Elephant” role with great success.

I know for a fact this defense was used prior to Carroll getting there, since I have copies of the games from when Ray Rhodes was the defensive coordinator there. So sorry to disappoint: George Seifert is probably the original innovator of this scheme, although I am quite certain Carroll has added some. And based on these games, the reason for its evolution was probably the Dallas Cowboys and stopping Emmitt Smith and getting a pass rush on those behemoth offensive linemen they had. Certainly acquiring the type of personnel to run that scheme occurred in the 1993 and 1994 off seasons (when Ricky Jackson, Richard Dent, Bryant Young, Dana Stubblefield and others were added).

All I'm saying is that there WAS an obvious change in the 49ers defensive scheme between 1993 and 1994 (when they went from a 3-4 to essentially the same scheme the Seahawks use today), but in 1995 (with Carroll as the new DC) there was NOT any change at all (other than in personnel => the loss of Deion).

 

[Popeyejones]

So our defense is so simple even a 49er can do it is what I am reading.
.

or the 9ers defense from the mid-90s is so simple that even the Seahawks can dot it

(Pete Carroll iirc learned the 4-3 under when it was George Seifert's defense for the 9ers and PC came on as DC for two years. It was the same front with same assignments but just different terminology -- "Leo" was called the "Elephant", and was Charles Haley's position even back into the 80s)

Except Jerry Burns ran the 4-3 in Minnesota after he replaced Bud Grant in the late 80's when Carroll was his DB coach. A job he had, in fact, in the 1987-88 season when the 8-7 Vikings upset Walsh's 13-2 49ers at Candlestick 36-24 in the divisional round.

Not everything leads back to the 49ers dynasty.

4-3 under, not just the straight 4-3.

See 5 Golden's post above.

Also, I was just ribbing Chris. It's true but really not worth taking seriously, IMO.