Getting harder to argue against.

[Seahawk_Dan]

Selecting Abe & Chuck did show commitment, but what about the interior? Just an awful plan with those 3 positions coming into the season.

JS said himself that guards are valued too high. If that is your mentality, you're not going put your best stock into those positions.

 

[MORGULON]

JS brought in Connor Williams , who most thought was a genius move , a pretty good left tackle and a right tackle who was supposed to be the guy for the next 10 years . Not his fault Lucas has been hurt .
Yes he has to better with the guard positions but many experts on here were giddy with Olu and the other guy they drafted this last draft.

Has anyone considered that maybe the coaching/ development is lacking ? I've wondered about that and haven't seen anyone mention this. I'm not saying it hasn't been brought up .

 

[HawkFreak]

JS brought in Connor Williams , who most thought was a genius move , a pretty good left tackle and a right tackle who was supposed to be the guy for the next 10 years . Not his fault Lucas has been hurt .
Yes he has to better with the guard positions but many experts on here were giddy with Olu and the other guy they drafted this last draft.

Has anyone considered that maybe the coaching/ development is lacking ? I've wondered about that and haven't seen anyone mention this. I'm not saying it hasn't been brought up .

Who is the current O-Line Coach? Is there someone in that specific role? Or is it just Grubb?

 

[Shane Falco]

I thought that the selection of Players is down to the coaching staff. All JS does is arrange the contracts and personal terms.

In other words, the players are handed to him to make the best of.

I would think the coaching staff has a big say, but the scouting department is a big part of it too. I imagine some of the opinions on players are gotten from the work that those guys do.

But JS is the main part of bringing free agents in.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

JS brought in Connor Williams , who most thought was a genius move , a pretty good left tackle and a right tackle who was supposed to be the guy for the next 10 years . Not his fault Lucas has been hurt .
Yes he has to better with the guard positions but many experts on here were giddy with Olu and the other guy they drafted this last draft.

Has anyone considered that maybe the coaching/ development is lacking ? I've wondered about that and haven't seen anyone mention this. I'm not saying it hasn't been brought up .

It was lacking under Carrol too. Over his tenure the Oline was also plug and play and full of experimental players or one-year signings that amounted to nothing, and Carrol had various Oline coaches and none of them could make the line worth a damn.

The only lineman they've ever re-signed that was drafted by JS was Justin Britt, every other subsequent lineman drafted by JS has never signed a second contract with the team. JR Sweezy left the team to the Bucs then came back on a year deal and Max Unger, one of if not the best Center in the team history, was re-signed in 2012 but he was a 2009 draft pick from Tim Ruskell.

Okung was one of the better lineman that the team drafted, they let him walk. Most of their other choices in each draft were either reaches in the draft (Carptenter and Ifedi) or exactly what you thought they were gonna be. Experiments or back ups.

Charles Cross has been average at best, certainly not worth is #9 overall status when Tyler Linderbaum was on the board and taken at #25. Abe Lucas was the true steal of the JS office. Lucas should have been a 1st Round pick and getting him in the 3rd was phenomenal, kudos for sure.

That being said, JS's linemen selection has been piss poor through most of his career here. That's an evaluation problem. Him, the scouts, whatever.

 

[James in PA]

We need Cable back to convert some D linemen into guards. It's a simple transition.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

We need Cable back to convert some D linemen into guards. It's a simple transition.

Murphy is actually the best G in NFL history and we don't even know it yet.

 

[MORGULON]

It was lacking under Carrol too. Over his tenure the Oline was also plug and play and full of experimental players or one-year signings that amounted to nothing, and Carrol had various Oline coaches and none of them could make the line worth a damn.

The only lineman they've ever re-signed that was drafted by JS was Justin Britt, every other subsequent lineman drafted by JS has never signed a second contract with the team. JR Sweezy left the team to the Bucs then came back on a year deal and Max Unger, one of if not the best Center in the team history, was re-signed in 2012 but he was a 2009 draft pick from Tim Ruskell.

Okung was one of the better lineman that the team drafted, they let him walk. Most of their other choices in each draft were either reaches in the draft (Carptenter and Ifedi) or exactly what you thought they were gonna be. Experiments or back ups.

Charles Cross has been average at best, certainly not worth is #9 overall status when Tyler Linderbaum was on the board and taken at #25. Abe Lucas was the true steal of the JS office. Lucas should have been a 1st Round pick and getting him in the 3rd was phenomal, kudos for sure.

That being said, JS's linemen selection has been piss poor through most of his career here. That's an evaluation problem. Him, the scouts, whatever.

I agree largely with what you're saying here. It's weird , I don't have a lot of reference as I'm mainly in Seahawks world . I find it difficult to pay attention to other teams offensive line woes. ( We have enough ourselves).

My point (or question) is does anyone think there's a coach out there that can take this group and get the most out of them , technique wise , attitude wise etc..

These guys are NFL players , they do it for a living , what are the chances JS went out and carefully got the shittiest humans for the job out of all 32 teams ? I find that difficult to believe. Not all of them anyway.

Something does have to change .

Seattle was blessed with one of the best mobile QBs of the era and MF Beastmode. Those two made having a substandard line doable. JS got those two guys onboard .

Right ?

Or was that Peter Carroll for the Schneidengfrauders out there in .NET land ?

Hey , I made a funny (almost)

 

[MORGULON]

Who is the current O-Line Coach? Is there someone in that specific role? Or is it just Grubb?

I think Grub brought his UW line coach with him.

Good question

 

[HawkFreak]

I think Grub brought his UW line coach with him.

Good question

It definitely seems like the Seahawks have struggled to find really good O-line coaches over the years. Although wasn't the Washington O-Line a strength / good unit? maybe it was all talent and not necessarily great O-line coaching?

 

[knownone]

The issue up front is clearly John's philosophy. He's not willing to pay market prices for starting linemen. He's always looking for that marginal value in free agency and the draft: the guy coming off an injury, the aging veteran on the decline, the mid-round pick, etc.

Until Leonard Williams and Dre'mont Jones, it was the same with interior defensive linemen. It seemed John would rather take a step back on the line than pay for average starters.

Meanwhile, the good teams in the league are/were doing the opposite.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

I agree largely with what you're saying here. It's weird , I don't have a lot of reference as I'm mainly in Seahawks world . I find it difficult to pay attention to other teams offensive line woes. ( We have enough ourselves).

My point (or question) is does anyone think there's a coach out there that can take this group and get the most out of them , technique wise , attitude wise etc..

These guys are NFL players , they do it for a living , what are the chances JS went out and carefully got the shittiest humans for the job out of all 32 teams ? I find that difficult to believe. Not all of them anyway.

Something does have to change .

Seattle was blessed with one of the best mobile QBs of the era and MF Beastmode. Those two made having a substandard line doable. JS got those two guys onboard .

Right ?

Or was that Peter Carroll for the Schneidengfrauders out there in .NET land ?

Hey , I made a funny (almost)

I see what your saying and I think the only answer, if you’re keeping this group and continue with JS evaluation on the position, then it has to be consistency.

Let MM and the Oline coaches work the line and the same players to mold them rather than rotating every position every season, which means re-signing players which apparently goes against everything JS stands for.

As much as some have disagreed, and JS had no intention to, keeping Lewis would’ve been the wise move. He has experience with these guys, the position, and he’s the only shining spot on a terrible Panthers team.

In a perfect world, you would have re-signed him, Lucas wasn’t hurt, and Cross for consistency. That way 3/5 linemen know your flow.

 

[AgentDib]

It's tempting to try to break down complicated topics like our obvious OL problems into simple answers, such as being poorly scouted, poorly coached, or not given enough resources. It's more complicated than that in my view, and if we're posting on a forum on a bye week then we can handle some complexity.

LT: Cross has been solid and looks amazing compared to the rest of our line. He hasn't been as good as we were hoping with the 9th overall pick. It feels like we have to pick up the 5th year option this off-season, but that will make him the 9th highest paid LT (APY) with a one year guaranteed figure ($18.5m). Ideally he will finish this season well and we can work out an extension shortly after this season.

LG: I agree with Schneider here on not paying Damien Lewis $53m/4. The real problem is that Lewis didn't develop into a player worth that kind of extension. Tomlinson hasn't seemed great (19 pressures), but our very high pass volume is skewing that perceptions a bit when we're passing so much more often. Everybody's favorite guard Quenton Nelson has allowed only 10 pressures but that has been from over 100 fewer passing snaps.

C: Olu could simply be a bust, or he could be part of the cost of changing coaches. Olu and Williams had polar opposite spider plots and it's probable that Huff was looking for a more active player.


One of the reasons I think fans are too quick to jump at coaching changes is they undervalue consistency. There are lots of franchises that are always turning over coaches, the players on those teams often struggle, it's rarely clear if the players themselves are the problem or if it's that they've have to learn a new system every year.

RG: Christian Haynes was the #2 guard in consensus mock drafts and expecting him to be plan A isn't crazy for a rebuilding team focusing on the long-term. The problem is when this doesn't match with our target of winning now, as the jump from the American Athletic conference up to the NFL is enormous. His competition has been Anthony Bradford, who gave up 28 pressures last season including a rare 0 PFF pass block grade against the Eagles. That has been a glaring mistake for a team trying to be compete.

RT: The question with Abe Lucas is how well his degenerative knee condition was understood during the draft. Speculation is all over the board but I've yet to see any hard information about it. Losing Fant and then Forsythe as plans B and C is definitely unfortunate.

 

[Torc]

JS said himself that guards are valued too high. If that is your mentality, you're not going put your best stock into those positions.

Someone asked Macdonald about this in his last press conference and whether he agreed. He looked taken aback a little bit, and then said that every position on a football team is important.

I know JS outranks him, but I suspect there have been and will be conversations about this (not because of the question but because it's a clear weakness).

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

Someone asked Macdonald about this in his last press conference and whether he agreed. He looked taken aback a little bit, and then said that every position on a football team is important.

I know JS outranks him, but I suspect there have been and will be conversations about this (not because of the question but because it's a clear weakness).

Because it’s absurd.

For a man that has been in the NFL as long as Schneider has been, especially his tenure in Green Bay, that statement of his reads like he’s a first time GM.

 

[James in PA]

Someone asked Macdonald about this in his last press conference and whether he agreed. He looked taken aback a little bit, and then said that every position on a football team is important.

That was probably my favorite question from a Seattle reporter in a long time.

 

[AnimeAmore]

I don't know how it can be fairly argued that the OLine hasn't been prioritized the sheer number of roster moves to they to bolster the OLine argues strongly against that position.

However it is fair to question that JS or the team collectively has difficulty evaluating OLine talent or those chosen underperform their abilities previous shown or anticipated. Do think that the team will reasonably assess JS when it is finally sold as we can expect over the next few seasons. If the OLine is not improved relative to now JS may well be looking at finding a new job as this critical area is a continuing area of weakness. Frankly the team has been screwed on the Line with injuries and that is not on JS directly but the effective depth is simply missing or not ready yet. BTW I agree the Line is not better than it was last year and last year it was pretty awful. Reality though is there are many teams around the league that are finding difficulty find good OLine players. It is true the Line looks better and the D is better than last year but still has vulnerabilities.

Meanwhile I believe blowing the whole thing up and hiring a completely new FO staff from top to bottom is short sighted as the continuity of the team leadership would be lost. There should be no doubt that JS's seat is less comfortable than it has been before as with overall control there is responsibility. I still think there are signs however that the whole team is now headed in a new and positive direction. Some patience is needed for the coaching staff as it is hard to be new coaches in the NFL and a period of reasonable adjustment is to expected before they can fairly assessed. JS's position with this has become less secure if the direction doesn't change. It is clear without a doubt that the OLine needs improvement.

The number of roster moves is not a good indication of them giving it proper priority. If they make a half-assed effort to improve the line and get half-assed results they will have to try again...and again...and again.
The teams that prioritize the OL don't need to make as many moves because they get their guys and then they've got their guys. Schneider (and pete) mostly hoped to find diamonds covered in dung, which doesn't happen too often and forced them to constantly be trying to find their next half-assed solution to the OL problem.
Remember, this is the team that thought DL conversions made more sense than getting guys who actually play on the OL, as well as wasting a couple drafts on *S*P*A*R*Q* (remember that?).

I agree with John that linemen get overpaid in FA, but that is true of every position in FA. No one can claim Schneider hasn't made lots of OL moves over the years, but they've mostly been half-measures, and if he isn't willing to build a good OL through the draft and he isn't willing to pay for a decent OL in FA then we will always be stuck just trying to get our offense going.

 

[MORGULON]

It definitely seems like the Seahawks have struggled to find really good O-line coaches over the years. Although wasn't the Washington O-Line a strength / good unit? maybe it was all talent and not necessarily great O-line coaching?

Supposedly UW had the best line in the NCAA

 

[MORGULON]

I see what your saying and I think the only answer, if you’re keeping this group and continue with JS evaluation on the position, then it has to be consistency.

Let MM and the Oline coaches work the line and the same players to mold them rather than rotating every position every season, which means re-signing players which apparently goes against everything JS stands for.

As much as some have disagreed, and JS had no intention to, keeping Lewis would’ve been the wise move. He has experience with these guys, the position, and he’s the only shining spot on a terrible Panthers team.

In a perfect world, you would have re-signed him, Lucas wasn’t hurt, and Cross for consistency. That way 3/5 linemen know your flow.

Regarding Lewis . Doesn't that say something about the coaching and or scheme?
He goes across country and gets after it after being at least serviceable in Seattle ?

Just for discussion

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

Regarding Lewis . Doesn't that say something about the coaching and or scheme?
He goes across country and gets after it after being at least serviceable in Seattle ?

Just for discussion

At least under Carrol's tenure. We never saw what he could do under Macdonald or this particular staff.