Good Explanation As To Why It Was Time

[themunn]

Which is why I was disappointed he didn't hire Chow, his offense was more aggressive and down field, but at USC the both of them clashed. Marshawn had one sound bite that told me all I needed, he asked Pete can we score some more ? or something to that effect. The whole what's your deal thing I believe stuck with Pete about running up points, so much he throttled back with a lead almost all the time.

I think you missed the joke

 

[Ozzy]

The league told us how they view Pete at this point. There was zero interest in him. The league is super interconnected and everyone knows who's still a good coach and who isn't. You don't have that much success only to have zero interest around the league and still be viewed as a high end coach. Howell when asked why he had such a good game against Seattle last year it was because he knew what they were doing on every play. This is usually met with " well maybe Pete didn't want to coach"....we know this is false because he said he wanted to coach and even if he didn't there would still be a ton of interest where teams are begging high end guys to make one more run.

Pete is an all time great, HOF coach. Towards the end he wasn't for many reasons and the league agreed apparently. This isn't a knock on Pete, this happens to every coach.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Perseverance, persistence, pernicious, patience. Then there is my favourite p word. You can guess it.

It has something to do with cats, just what I'm not quite sure.

Is Pete one of your favorite names? Lol.

 

[knownone]

One player's opinion is not a reflection of the entire locker room.

 

[Maelstrom787]

The league told us how they view Pete at this point. There was zero interest in him. The league is super interconnected and everyone knows who's still a good coach and who isn't. You don't have that much success only to have zero interest around the league and still be viewed as a high end coach. Howell when asked why he had such a good game against Seattle last year it was because he knew what they were doing on every play. This is usually met with " well maybe Pete didn't want to coach"....we know this is false because he said he wanted to coach and even if he didn't there would still be a ton of interest where teams are begging high end guys to make one more run.

Pete is an all time great, HOF coach. Towards the end he wasn't for many reasons and the league agreed apparently. This isn't a knock on Pete, this happens to every coach.

I think there's some nuance to the situation here that goes a little deeper than the league simply not wanting him. Age would be a consideration - kind of like it is for quarterbacks, most teams bad enough to fire their coach would want to draft someone they can have for an extended period vs. a two or three year guy. There's also the fact that we're a unique organization in that we traditionally don't mind ceding control to candidates who have the resume to command that organizational control. Most orgs prefer guys that they think are talented but that they can also keep subservient.

I think if Carroll was 10 years younger but all else about his situation remained the same, he would've been in demand. The wheels didn't fall off like Belichick's did - Pete was still winning more than he was losing, and the types of organizations that were in the market for a head coach would kill for a floor of .500, as tired as we grew of it.

Like, if the Commanders or Falcons knew that Pete was going to be available and didn't have organizations that refused to cede some organizational control to a coach, I really can't convince myself that they honestly preferred guys like Raheem Morris or Dan Quinn to Pete Carroll on coaching caliber alone. But when you add up the age and their current shot callers not wanting to hire a guy who'll want to call the shots... I mean, the fit required is just so specific.

Carroll at his worst is better than some organizations have been at their best in the last decade. There's just too many factors that disqualified him from the 2023 openings.

Would love to see him in college again. Hell, I think the 49ers would've been smart to hire him as their DC (not that he would've accepted). I mean, Kyle Shanahan is specifically mandating that they run a Carroll defense and is specifically disinterested in leaving that defensive tree. As much as the defense sucked near the end, I think if you put Pete in a position to dial up some gameplans from his days as a coordinator rather than have him delegate to his admittedly terrible hires, he'd be good. His bear front gambit made our run defense elite just a couple of years ago, he's run diverse coverages and only settled on heavy cover-3 specifically for the LOB (his USC stuff was predominantly cover-2 if I recall), and perhaps most importantly, I think he's an incredible tone setter and we'd see him come alive in a situation where he's building something new rather than trying to keep an ethos alive for 15 years.

I dunno. I'm bummed it ended this way. I want to see him get another shot. NFL, college, whatever. Just want to be able to root for the guy again.

 

[keasley45]

Misplaced over-loyalty to underperforming coordinators was a chronic, ongoing Pete problem. That alone could have been what cost him his job. I would have liked to see Pete with good coordinators. But, because Pete is Pete, we didn't get to. A what-if that will forever remain unknown.

This. The tired mantra that he trumped everything is completey counter to not just his philosophy, but to the critique of guys like Paul Moyer who point blank said that the idea that the defense hadnt changed or was stuck, was not correct. I believe he stated that it might be too complex. Whether that was because the teaching was ineffective or the concepts unsound, i dont think we will ever know.

The problem was first that Pete put too much faith in coordinators who were failing, in the hope that with enough time on job and support, theyd get it. The consensus take from analysts like Moyer who are close to the team and know the game (particularly defense) was that there was a disconnect between coordinator and player. The exact same thing that Philly encountered last year under Desai. Coincidence? I think not.

PETE RELISHED IN THE SATISFACTION OF SEEING PLAYERS AND COACHES ACHIEVE GREATNESS AGAINT THE ODDS AND THROUGH DETERMINATION. He put guys that wouldnt have had a legit shot to succeed in any other situation an opportunity. Its everything hes about. Guys like Russ, R Lockette, Malcolm Smith, among others were great examples of guys who achieved. But for every one of them, theres a Bryan Mone, Shaquem Griffin, and Tre Flowers . Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Quinn and Bradley were Petes best appointments. Both have worked as coordinators or HCs since being here with some success. Both brought us success. Neither had achieved anything as coordinators before Pete elevated them.

Norton? Wasnt good at DC before and isnt in the league now. K Richards - back to coaching DBs after failing as DC after leaving Seattle. C Hurtt - back to coaching D line. And i doubt either of the latter will be DCs again. So its not like Pete held anyone back. He put the wrong guys in place. He didnt trump some grand idea that they might have implemented and history proves that.
Again, live by the sword, die by the sword.

Quinn has taken the base concepts that he ran in Seattle and adapted them. By Moyers measure, the concepts on D in Seatte and what they were TRYING to run were significantly different from what they ran with the LOB. It just wasnt taught effectively or was too hard to grasp. If the 'teachers' who failed here, failed elsewhere, that should tell you something.

That, and the 'next man up' idea and the 'fit the player to the position' belief system that kept players locked into a position (sometimes out of position or not in a position that best utilized their individual talents) hindered the D. But that alone couldnt have rendered the results we saw over the last 5 years.

 

[BlueTalon]

I heard JSN been out there showing his ass!

I think that phrase means different things to different people. In the Marine Corps, showing one's ass means making an utter fool of one's self.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

In the league, sometimes teams adopt “trends” and with Seattle, it’s clear, the top brass running the organization wanted a fresh perspective from a young head coach.

None, of the old, “this is how football is played” cliches from a previous generation is wanted now.

Football and the NFL evolves impactfully, about every 5 years or so.

The rules change considerably about every 5 years, and if you cannot adjust to the rules and be a modern team, it’s difficult to win in that current NFL times.

Peak Carroll built a team (2013-2014) that used the rules at that time to their benefit and then couldn’t adapt to when the rules changed.

And this is why he couldn’t land another NFL gig. The NFL knows Carroll is of the previous NFL generation and wouldn’t fit todays metrics and is not capable of building a team that can play elite football under current standards and rules.

 

[JGreen79]

Things we know:

1. Carroll, not a good Xs and Os coach
2. Carroll, hires coordinators, that are also pretty awful Xs and Os coordinators (look at the NFL for the Carroll’s tree, what coach is still good/relevant)
3. Players also know this

I’m so happy we have changes in coaching staff on both sides of the ball.

Seattle actually has a chance and hope now!

While I agree with you in general, throwing the the coaching tree part hurts your argument. 3 current Head Coaches are from his coaching tree.

 

[chris98251]

Pete stopped adhering to his own policy's, next man up, always compete, all in. His loyalty to players he was successful with despite their eroding skills. He didn't give guys the step up chance when they had the mentors here. He also was too loyal to coaches that showed they just didn't get it, Hurtt being the latest but Cable as well. He would not evolve his schemes and adjust to the rules and trends. He didn't trust his Offensive guys to implement new dynamics whether it was limitations of Russ or just wanting it to be his way. We seen Waldrons offense for about 1 half against the Colts, that was it, no more, Geno lit it up and then it was put in a box never to be opened again.

That could not have been by Waldrons choice in my mind, it was Pete pulling the reins back in.

 

[Ozzy]

I think there's some nuance to the situation here that goes a little deeper than the league simply not wanting him. Age would be a consideration - kind of like it is for quarterbacks, most teams bad enough to fire their coach would want to draft someone they can have for an extended period vs. a two or three year guy. There's also the fact that we're a unique organization in that we traditionally don't mind ceding control to candidates who have the resume to command that organizational control. Most orgs prefer guys that they think are talented but that they can also keep subservient.

I think if Carroll was 10 years younger but all else about his situation remained the same, he would've been in demand. The wheels didn't fall off like Belichick's did - Pete was still winning more than he was losing, and the types of organizations that were in the market for a head coach would kill for a floor of .500, as tired as we grew of it.

Like, if the Commanders or Falcons knew that Pete was going to be available and didn't have organizations that refused to cede some organizational control to a coach, I really can't convince myself that they honestly preferred guys like Raheem Morris or Dan Quinn to Pete Carroll on coaching caliber alone. But when you add up the age and their current shot callers not wanting to hire a guy who'll want to call the shots... I mean, the fit required is just so specific.

Carroll at his worst is better than some organizations have been at their best in the last decade. There's just too many factors that disqualified him from the 2023 openings.

Would love to see him in college again. Hell, I think the 49ers would've been smart to hire him as their DC (not that he would've accepted). I mean, Kyle Shanahan is specifically mandating that they run a Carroll defense and is specifically disinterested in leaving that defensive tree. As much as the defense sucked near the end, I think if you put Pete in a position to dial up some gameplans from his days as a coordinator rather than have him delegate to his admittedly terrible hires, he'd be good. His bear front gambit made our run defense elite just a couple of years ago, he's run diverse coverages and only settled on heavy cover-3 specifically for the LOB (his USC stuff was predominantly cover-2 if I recall), and perhaps most importantly, I think he's an incredible tone setter and we'd see him come alive in a situation where he's building something new rather than trying to keep an ethos alive for 15 years.

I dunno. I'm bummed it ended this way. I want to see him get another shot. NFL, college, whatever. Just want to be able to root for the guy again.

It's a valid argument but I think people claiming moving on from Pete at this age, was something this franchise would forever regret or never recover from was always a little over the top. Not many people had that sentiment, but it was out there.

I would love to see Pete make another run in college. I still he would still be great for college football and very effective. I'd root hard for Pete and want the same thing. He deserves it.

 

[flv2]

Carroll wasn't fired. He was re-assigned. He is still under contract to the Seahawks with zero workload and a full HC salary. I doubt he'd be willing to give up that salary to take a lower paid DC or positional role.

As a HC candidate his age is a major issue. Teams aren't going to hand over control and hire coaches unless they plan for the HC to be in place for 3 years. Maybe Carroll would be considered if he'd take a rolling 1-year-contract, HC role with the existing staff and the existing GM having full control - but why would Carroll do that?

Carroll is a good but not elite HC. His flaws hurt his team's ability to win playoff tournaments. He can regularly get you to the tournament. However, his teams are undisciplined and he prefers superior physical playing talent with a simplified playbook. He gets beaten by smarter opponents through superior decision-making and better execution.

 

[flv2]

Pete stopped adhering to his own policy's, next man up, always compete, all in. His loyalty to players he was successful with despite their eroding skills. He didn't give guys the step up chance when they had the mentors here. He also was too loyal to coaches that showed they just didn't get it, Hurtt being the latest but Cable as well. He would not evolve his schemes and adjust to the rules and trends. He didn't trust his Offensive guys to implement new dynamics whether it was limitations of Russ or just wanting it to be his way. We seen Waldrons offense for about 1 half against the Colts, that was it, no more, Geno lit it up and then it was put in a box never to be opened again.

That could not have been by Waldrons choice in my mind, it was Pete pulling the reins back in.

Way too loyal.

 

[DaveG]

Since Pete is still under contract any NFL team that hires him will have to give the Seahawks compensation. That could be part of the reason there was no interest. I think that’s also the reason Seattle didn’t outright fire him.

 

[flv2]

Since Pete is still under contract any NFL team that hires him will have to give the Seahawks compensation. That could be part of the reason there was no interest. I think that’s also the reason Seattle didn’t outright fire him.

If Carroll wanted to work for another franchise i'm sure the Seahawks owner would allow it without compensation. Obviously that would includes the HC salary compensation paid to Carroll from the Seahawks. He can't expect to be paid by the Seahawks to work against them.

 

[Maelstrom787]

It's a valid argument but I think people claiming moving on from Pete at this age, was something this franchise would forever regret or never recover from was always a little over the top. Not many people had that sentiment, but it was out there.

I would love to see Pete make another run in college. I still he would still be great for college football and very effective. I'd root hard for Pete and want the same thing. He deserves it.

Ah, I'd agree with that, yeah.

I love Pete as much as anyone out there and I certainly wouldn't think they'd never have a chance to recover from his departure. That's too culty. We've still got Schneider and a winning track record as an organization.

Pete will always be my favorite and I'll definitely never enjoy another coach as much as Pete, just because my development into a massive football fan happened to coincide with his arrival in Seattle. I didn't think he'd work - I was a casual fan at the time and bought the trope that college coaches couldn't hack it in the league. But yeah, that's a personal thing. Anyone saying Seattle can't be successful without him is deluded.

Personally, I like Mac, I like Grubb, and I like Schneider. I'm not gung-ho on immediate improvement in the W-L column, but I'd be a liar if I said that I didn't like these hires for us. John comes from the right school of football science, too. The Green Bay model is always fundamentally the best in my eyes.

 

[BlueTalon]

Pete is an all time great, HOF coach. Towards the end he wasn't for many reasons and the league agreed apparently. This isn't a knock on Pete, this happens to every coach.

It happened to Belichick.

 

[LeveeBreak]

In 2012, 2013…I think he leaned on player leaders to keep ranks aligned. He lost that when Kam retired and Russ went premadonna. Never replaced that capability.

 

[oldhawkfan]

I love words and that's a good one. Sadly, we don't use enough good words in our daily vocabulary. I said "paradigm" once to my neighbor and he made a face like I had a giant spider eating my brains.

Paradigm? Isn’t that like 20 cents??

 

[GemCity]

As much as I loved Pete and what he brought to our team and us fans, it was quite obvious he was past his expiration date when it came to his stale defensive philosophies/schemes and stubbornness/over-loyalty to coordinators who had no business being in their roles, certainly for as long as some of them were.

If your division rivals know what you are going to do because of your refusal to change your base schemes, that's a problem.

This.

IMO, PC is the best coach we’ve ever had.

But, it was time. Point to the coordinators all you want..PC had ultimate responsibility.

Regular season wins are nice and all. Post-season success is the ultimate metric of success. The whole win in the 4th quarter thing is predicated by solid, fundamental ball with little risk. Statistics such as Geno’s 4th quarter comebacks aren’t as ‘shiny’ as they appear when you consider PCs style of play. Risk management is important. In that regard, PC was as stubborn as a mule.

Pete doesn’t have an NFL HC gig now for a sole, singular reason. It’s not because he’s “under contract” with the Hawks either.

I love that dude…and I hope he’s enjoying time with his family or perhaps being involved in whatever manner that is conducive to and leads to happiness.

But…it was time for change. For better or worse, it was definitely time for change.