Mina Kimes ranks Pete Carroll at #10 among coaches

[pittpnthrs]

"all the other QB's?" As in the ONE other QB other than Russell over the past 12 seasons?

You're going to need a MUCH larger sample size to convince anyone of this false narrative pitt. If Russell wasn't sacked in college, or went to Denver and had amazing protection and his sack numbers dropped drastically? You'd have a leg to stand on.

But you don't.

Sarge, you keep making this about Wilson when its not. I was even surprised at the stats when I saw them posted by Rcaido. I'll post it again for you.

So it looks like the same thing happen in New England. Drew Bledsoe, sack total kept getting higher when Pete took over. He was the second most sacked QB in Pete last year with the Patriots w/ 50.


So Bledsoe 2nd in sack
Tavaris Jackson 2nd in sack
Geno - Tied for 3rd in sack

So that's 4 QBs in the top 3 most sacked QBs. Seem like a pattern to me.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

16 months and counting.............so entertaining.

 

[pittpnthrs]

That was the narrative that the Wilson fans & Pete haters were hoping would take place, as they could then say 'See, we told you that it was all on Pete Carroll and his crappy Coaching & not Russ for hanging onto the ball for too long'
Geno winning CBPOTY and making it to the Pro Bowl must have galled them to no end.

All those awards and still a first round loss in the playoffs. Doesn't seem like anything has changed.

 

[Hawkmode]

All those awards and still a first round loss in the playoffs. Doesn't seem like anything has changed.

I feel your disgruntled fan pain...it's not a slam on our team when we played our hearts out and got beat by the better team. I used to only worry about Kittle...but I felt we had Jimmy G's number often enough to feel ok. The 49er roster talent in 2022 was ridiculous...(sadly still looks daunting for 2023). Adding Christian McCaffrey to Deebo Samuel proved too much...but our team is rapidly closing that gap and it doesn't matter who plays QB we needed to improve our QB win rate and ability to generate pressure. The 49ers have too many moving pieces to cover all the time...so our focus has to be on the QB tasked with using those pieces...make that man uncomfortable...it's hard to actually scare him with NFL QB protection the way it is.

I think our GM has "answered the call" adding two big time QB disruptors...one through free agency (Dre'Mont Jones) and another through the draft (Darick Hall). We even have a "sleeper" who was stashed on injured reserve last year (Tyreke Smith) out of QB "Press U" Ohio State who had a very high QB pressure rate. To maximize our pass rushers skill sets we hired a respected Pass Rush Specialist Coach...BT Jordan.

Yes our eyes are on the 49ers and we have some quick moving "pieces" from a variety of play makers of our own ...we are innovators (not imitators)...perhaps even more than SF. Bobby and Devin have the speed and range to give us a better shot at tamping down on McCaffrey's explosiveness.

The 49ers are definitely a respected target making it a difficult "hunt"...but unlike last year the "gun" we tried using has now been equipped with a "scope" and our schedule should allow us to "draw a bead" before our first meeting. *Aim* (Game Preparation) ...*Fire* (Game Execution)

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Sarge, you keep making this about Wilson when its not. I was even surprised at the stats when I saw them posted by Rcaido. I'll post it again for you.

You win pitt. All Pete did was help Russell go to 9 Pro Bowls, win a SB and was on his way to putting on a gold jacket before he decided he wanted complete control of the offense. Went to Denver without Pete and led the league in being sacked and was so profoundly bad they had to bring in a coach who is going to coach and protect Russ EXACTLY like Pete did.

Then Pete took a scrap heap QB that the entire league left for dead, and helped him also go to the Pro Bowl. Nevermind all the QB's in college Pete helped win Heismans and National Championships.

Yep, just an awful awful QB coach who has no idea what he's doing................while he's on the way to going into two Hall of Fames and going down as one of the greatest coaches in the history of the league.

If only we could have a revolving door of coaches like other knee jerk franchises who's fan bases think like you. Man, that'd be the way to go.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Pete helped Russ. Russ helped Pete. It CAN be both. Just sayin.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Pete helped Russ. Russ helped Pete. It CAN be both. Just sayin.

Apparently it can't.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Good point

 

[keasley45]

All those awards and still a first round loss in the playoffs. Doesn't seem like anything has changed.

Russ had 'elite' stats. Hiw far did that get us in the playoffs?

The thing that's obviously changed is that it's not an obvious deficiency in qb play that's affecting our ability to win.

The entire scheme on offense isn't hamstrung by 1/3rd of the field being taken away, or the inability to run certain sets, or beat certain coverages.

Ask Shane and Pete and they'll tell you it's a refreshing change to not have to omit entire concepts of the passing game to make the offense work.

For anyone but the disgruntled, it's pretty clear the work that Pete and Co did in helping Russ help the team.

Just as it's pretty clear that our 'failure' in the playoffs against the second best team in the NFC and vastly superior team to ours talent wise, wasn't a continuation of the pattern from prior years. Pete built a playoff team from the ground up last year that wasnt supposed to make the playoffs.

2021? We SHOULD have been better, if not for the Sh+t culture that took hold in a certain players MVP pursuit. That last bit, courtesy of perspective from Luke Wilson.

2020? We should have beaten an inferior Rams team in the wildcard if not for our inability to sustain drives, commit to the run, and make simple plays. Not just conjecture, but captured by analysts like Kurt Warner.

2019? We had no running backs and as history has shown, against quality defenses, didn't have a varied enough passing game to overcome the lack of a running game.

So nothing about the Qb is the same. And nothing about what our underrated coach did reflects a continuation of any pattern of failure in recent history.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

um.........back to back super bowls?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The thing that's obviously changed is that it's not an obvious deficiency in qb play that's affecting our ability to win.

I can only assume pitt is a new NFL football fan, or doesn't study the sport outside of watching Seahawk football.

The Patriots 20 year run is an outlier that'll never be duplicated again. What's happened with Pete/John and the Hawks is the norm for a very well run and coached franchise. Pittsburgh, KC, SF, Philly, etc....and now the current state of NE without Brady. These are the top tier franchises that remain competitive even through their "down years."

The notion that Pete should be taking the Hawks deep into the playoffs every single season, when the entire system of league parity is rigged against that.

Doesn't absolve Pete and John from criticism, in all facets of the team. Draft, coaching hires, and in game scheming and playcalling. All of it's up for debate and criticism.

If warranted. But fans like pitt have no substance to their constant "Pete sucks" dead horse beating. It's just a categorically awful opinion to think Pete's not an elite football coach, who is still coaching his ass off.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

He's VERY likely going to be a HOF Coach. He clearly doesn't suck.

 

[scutterhawk]

All those awards and still a first round loss in the playoffs. Doesn't seem like anything has changed.

LOLOL, You so love to use comparatives, so Swami, tell us how many 'One And Dones' did Wilson produce?
You're being dismissive when it comes to the Geno Smiths 'Like Wilson' accomplishments, when in fact he'd done a very admirable job coming in year one and not crapping the bed, but instead producing a 4,000+ yard season, 9 wins, and maybe, JUST MAYBE this Continuity with HIS Offense affords him a head start in his second season, but, you already know this, right?

 

[pittpnthrs]

You win pitt. All Pete did was help Russell go to 9 Pro Bowls, win a SB and was on his way to putting on a gold jacket before he decided he wanted complete control of the offense. Went to Denver without Pete and led the league in being sacked and was so profoundly bad they had to bring in a coach who is going to coach and protect Russ EXACTLY like Pete did.

Then Pete took a scrap heap QB that the entire league left for dead, and helped him also go to the Pro Bowl. Nevermind all the QB's in college Pete helped win Heismans and National Championships.

Yep, just an awful awful QB coach who has no idea what he's doing................while he's on the way to going into two Hall of Fames and going down as one of the greatest coaches in the history of the league.

If only we could have a revolving door of coaches like other knee jerk franchises who's fan bases think like you. Man, that'd be the way to go.

Your still making it about Wilson when its not. Its not about the productivity of the QB's either. Nobody was arguing about that. The point being made was that QB's under Pete Carroll take a large sum of sacks and the numbers back that up. People that are making this about Wilson and his sack numbers are missing the big picture. Every QB in Petes system takes a bunch of sacks. If sacks dont matter to some as long as the job gets done, then those people need to stop pointing their fingers solely at Wilson.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

With Geno, it feels like it's more about holding on to the ball more than sacks. It's been discussed on 710 several times. Can't be fumbling with the game on the line. Geno is locked in, should be even better this year, and he clearly has NO issues accepting responsibility for his mistakes. I like our chances to at the minimum get to the 2nd round.

 

[keasley45]

Sarge, you keep making this about Wilson when its not. I was even surprised at the stats when I saw them posted by Rcaido. I'll post it again for you.

If its about Pete, then lets look at the fact that as a team (not just looking at stats like sacks that speak as much to a philosophy of not turning the ball over on INTs in Pete's offense than an incompetence in protecting the QB) Seattle is the only one that had placed THREE teams in overall DVOA in the top 20 - all time since 1950.

Thats TEAMS placed. There are others with two appearances. And those three Seattle teams, again... coached by the same guy. Not Holmgren. Not Knox. Pete Carroll.

The teams in this top 20 are some of the most celebrated in history. None of the franchises appear three times. No other coach has done it three times. And Pete did it in his first 5 years here, before giving up the reigns to Russ. Note... our last appearnaces coincides with the transition from the holistic philosophy that Pete built his team on, to one that skewed toward supporting his QB. Despite all of the hooplah around Russ's stats and 'carryng the team' through the bleak years post LOB, its actually the reliance on Russ and building around him at the expense of everything else that derailed the franchise.

Pete is an all time great coach and should be on anyones top 5 list until he chooses to hang them up.

And now that we've moved on from the BS of the 2015 to 2021 years, I bet dollars to donuts he adds to his legacy.

Best Total DVOA 1950-2019 (estimated 1950-1984)​
Rank​	Team​	Total DVOA​	Offense​	Defense​	ST​
1	WAS 1991*	56.9%​	27.2%​	-21.1%​	8.6%​
2	NE 2007	52.9%​	43.5%​	-5.8%​	3.6%​
3	CHI 1985*	52.5%​	15.1%​	-33.6%​	3.8%​
4	GB 1962*	47.9%​	21.4%​	-20.7%​	5.8%​
5	SF 1987	47.0%​	23.3%​	-22.4%​	1.3%​
6	GB 1961*	46.0%​	27.6%​	-11.6%​	6.8%​
7	NE 2010	44.6%​	42.2%​	2.3%​	4.7%​
8	OAK 1967	44.3%​	11.6%​	-26.0%​	6.8%​
9	PIT 1976	42.7%​	10.4%​	-30.1%​	2.1%​
10	GB 1996*	41.9%​	15.2%​	-19.3%​	7.4%​
11	BAL 2019	41.8%​	27.7%​	-12.7%​	1.5%​
12	BALC 1968	40.9%​	13.0%​	-21.0%​	6.8%​
13	SF 1995	40.1%​	18.6%​	-23.7%​	-2.2%​
14	SEA 2013*	40.0%​	9.4%​	-25.9%​	4.7%​
15	DAL 1968	39.5%​	17.1%​	-15.7%​	6.7%​
16	CLE1 1953	39.2%​	40.2%​	5.6%​	4.7%​
17	KC 1968	38.8%​	15.6%​	-13.2%​	10.0%​
18	SEA 2012	38.7%​	18.5%​	-14.5%​	5.7%​
19	MIA 1973*	38.4%​	19.5%​	-15.6%​	3.3%​
20	SEA 2015	38.1%​	18.7%​	-15.2%​	4.2%​

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Your still making it about Wilson when its not. Its not about the productivity of the QB's either. Nobody was arguing about that. The point being made was that QB's under Pete Carroll take a large sum of sacks and the numbers back that up. People that are making this about Wilson and his sack numbers are missing the big picture. Every QB in Petes system takes a bunch of sacks. If sacks dont matter to some as long as the job gets done, then those people need to stop pointing their fingers solely at Wilson.

So let me get this straight.

It's not about how good the QB's play under Pete. Or how productive QB's are under Pete. Or how successful QB's are under Pete. Or how many Pro Bowls QB's go to under Pete. Or how many SB's QB's win or play in under Pete.

All you care about is protection! IT'S ABOUT THE PROTECTION GUYS! THINK HOW MANY MORE SB'S, AWARDS AND HOW AMAZING THESE QB'S WOULD PLAY IF THE JUST HAD A COACH WHO CARED ABOUT.......................PROTECTION!! OMG PROTECTION!!

Just stop dude. You're embarrassing. You're grasping at straws to further a really bad narrative that Pete's a bad coach. It's just lame man.

 

[rcaido]

If its about Pete, then lets look at the fact that as a team (not just looking at stats like sacks that speak as much to a philosophy of not turning the ball over on INTs in Pete's offense than an incompetence in protecting the QB) Seattle is the only one that had placed THREE teams in overall DVOA in the top 20 - all time since 1950.

Thats TEAMS placed. There are others with two appearances. And those three Seattle teams, again... coached by the same guy. Not Holmgren. Not Knox. Pete Carroll.

The teams in this top 20 are some of the most celebrated in history. None of the franchises appear three times. No other coach has done it three times. And Pete did it in his first 5 years here, before giving up the reigns to Russ. Note... our last appearnaces coincides with the transition from the holistic philosophy that Pete built his team on, to one that skewed toward supporting his QB. Despite all of the hooplah around Russ's stats and 'carryng the team' through the bleak years post LOB, its actually the reliance on Russ and building around him at the expense of everything else that derailed the franchise.

Pete is an all time great coach and should be on anyones top 5 list until he chooses to hang them up.

And now that we've moved on from the BS of the 2015 to 2021 years, I bet dollars to donuts he adds to his legacy.

Best Total DVOA 1950-2019 (estimated 1950-1984)​
Rank​	Team​	Total DVOA​	Offense​	Defense​	ST​
1	WAS 1991*	56.9%​	27.2%​	-21.1%​	8.6%​
2	NE 2007	52.9%​	43.5%​	-5.8%​	3.6%​
3	CHI 1985*	52.5%​	15.1%​	-33.6%​	3.8%​
4	GB 1962*	47.9%​	21.4%​	-20.7%​	5.8%​
5	SF 1987	47.0%​	23.3%​	-22.4%​	1.3%​
6	GB 1961*	46.0%​	27.6%​	-11.6%​	6.8%​
7	NE 2010	44.6%​	42.2%​	2.3%​	4.7%​
8	OAK 1967	44.3%​	11.6%​	-26.0%​	6.8%​
9	PIT 1976	42.7%​	10.4%​	-30.1%​	2.1%​
10	GB 1996*	41.9%​	15.2%​	-19.3%​	7.4%​
11	BAL 2019	41.8%​	27.7%​	-12.7%​	1.5%​
12	BALC 1968	40.9%​	13.0%​	-21.0%​	6.8%​
13	SF 1995	40.1%​	18.6%​	-23.7%​	-2.2%​
14	SEA 2013*	40.0%​	9.4%​	-25.9%​	4.7%​
15	DAL 1968	39.5%​	17.1%​	-15.7%​	6.7%​
16	CLE1 1953	39.2%​	40.2%​	5.6%​	4.7%​
17	KC 1968	38.8%​	15.6%​	-13.2%​	10.0%​
18	SEA 2012	38.7%​	18.5%​	-14.5%​	5.7%​
19	MIA 1973*	38.4%​	19.5%​	-15.6%​	3.3%​
20	SEA 2015	38.1%​	18.7%​	-15.2%​	4.2%​

Wasn't Wilson part of those 3 seasons? I get it if, 2022 Seahawks were in the top 20 but both Pete & Russ were responsible for this success. Along w/ LOB & Lynch/Baldwin.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Russ had 'elite' stats. Hiw far did that get us in the playoffs?

The thing that's obviously changed is that it's not an obvious deficiency in qb play that's affecting our ability to win.

The entire scheme on offense isn't hamstrung by 1/3rd of the field being taken away, or the inability to run certain sets, or beat certain coverages.

Ask Shane and Pete and they'll tell you it's a refreshing change to not have to omit entire concepts of the passing game to make the offense work.

For anyone but the disgruntled, it's pretty clear the work that Pete and Co did in helping Russ help the team.

Just as it's pretty clear that our 'failure' in the playoffs against the second best team in the NFC and vastly superior team to ours talent wise, wasn't a continuation of the pattern from prior years. Pete built a playoff team from the ground up last year that wasnt supposed to make the playoffs.

2021? We SHOULD have been better, if not for the Sh+t culture that took hold in a certain players MVP pursuit. That last bit, courtesy of perspective from Luke Wilson.

2020? We should have beaten an inferior Rams team in the wildcard if not for our inability to sustain drives, commit to the run, and make simple plays. Not just conjecture, but captured by analysts like Kurt Warner.

2019? We had no running backs and as history has shown, against quality defenses, didn't have a varied enough passing game to overcome the lack of a running game.

So nothing about the Qb is the same. And nothing about what our underrated coach did reflects a continuation of any pattern of failure in recent history.

Russ had elite stats and the team still failed in the playoffs. One would think that maybe it wasnt the QB that was at fault.

You went through some playoff years listing your opinion as to why they failed. Lets take the loss in 2020 to the Rams as an example. The Seahawks beat that same team just a couple weeks prior. McVay learned from the loss and had his team ready. In my opinion, Carrolls game plan seemed and looked almost identical to what they did during the game that they won earlier. The Hawks looked flat and disgruntled because McVay changed things up and Pete didnt. Its another example of why Petes game planning has been in question by not just me, but many. There was no excuse to lose that game. Especially when the starting QB was playing with only 4 fingers on his throwing hand.

There was a game against the Bills too where Carroll openly admitted on air to not understanding what they were doing. Thats not a good thing to hear from your teams head coach.

 

[pittpnthrs]

So let me get this straight.

It's not about how good the QB's play under Pete. Or how productive QB's are under Pete. Or how successful QB's are under Pete. Or how many Pro Bowls QB's go to under Pete. Or how many SB's QB's win or play in under Pete.

All you care about is protection! IT'S ABOUT THE PROTECTION GUYS! THINK HOW MANY MORE SB'S, AWARDS AND HOW AMAZING THESE QB'S WOULD PLAY IF THE JUST HAD A COACH WHO CARED ABOUT.......................PROTECTION!! OMG PROTECTION!!

Just stop dude. You're embarrassing. You're grasping at straws to further a really bad narrative that Pete's a bad coach. It's just lame man.

Its about the results the team might obtain if those QB's did have better protection. Thats not a hard concept is it? Wilson understood that concept and asked Pete and the FO to improve on that area. They didnt. Its the main reason why I dont blame or have any animosity for Russell leaving. Nothing was ever going to change.