Mina Kimes ranks Pete Carroll at #10 among coaches

[keasley45]

Wasn't Wilson part of those 3 seasons? I get it if, 2022 Seahawks were in the top 20 but both Pete & Russ were responsible for this success. Along w/ LOB & Lynch/Baldwin.

2012 to 2015 - LOB/Lynch/Russ --- Elevated by the first 2.
2015 to 2021 - Russ ---Defense was gutted, accountability, shelved. Offensive identity lost to suit the specific weaknesses and individual desires of the QB.

I dont understand how now, given hindsight, its not painfully obvious what led to the failures post LOB and Lynch. Russ had a full season outside of the shackles of Pete and his tired scheme in Denver, and he shat the bed, completely and pulled the curtain back on all of the deficiencies the post 2015 Seahawks offenses (and as a result, defenses) had to cover for.

Say what you want about the 2022 Hawks. We DID NOT fail because of the QB, we overachieved in rebuilding a champion and won because the offense was as dangerous as it was.

And no, its not about Russ. But to repeatedly knock Pete as out of touch, or failing his QB, or not being competent in building a winner post 2015 that could do more in the playoffs, you have to have a basis of comparison if the debate continues to be this tired, Pete v Russ deal. And Pete's offense, without Russ, did things that the one with him never could.

Pete's defense - we will see what the 2nd year of the new (old) attitude, retooled / rebuilt unit looks like. And it makes sense that a unit based on aggression and attitude (as the 2012 to 2015 units were) would likley lag if they had to add back the 'dogs' that they intentionally asked to leave (fallout from the SB loss) and didnt draft (post 2015) to maintain a 'friendly' , 'good-guy' team chemistry.

This team is a team again. The defense / running game / qb dynamic will be the same, but with the ability of the qb to more directly influence wins. ie - there's no deliberate and at times debilitating scheming necessary to get performance from the position. Theres no hand holding and coddling. There's no bubble around any one player to shelter them from the accoutabilit they should receive.

That is what kept us from succeeding. This regime has shown that outside those very specific circumstances and decisions between 2015 and 2021, that the FO and HC are not just good, but all time great.

And its not 2015 to 2021 anymore.

 

[pittpnthrs]

If its about Pete, then lets look at the fact that as a team (not just looking at stats like sacks that speak as much to a philosophy of not turning the ball over on INTs in Pete's offense than an incompetence in protecting the QB) Seattle is the only one that had placed THREE teams in overall DVOA in the top 20 - all time since 1950.

Thats TEAMS placed. There are others with two appearances. And those three Seattle teams, again... coached by the same guy. Not Holmgren. Not Knox. Pete Carroll.

The teams in this top 20 are some of the most celebrated in history. None of the franchises appear three times. No other coach has done it three times. And Pete did it in his first 5 years here, before giving up the reigns to Russ. Note... our last appearnaces coincides with the transition from the holistic philosophy that Pete built his team on, to one that skewed toward supporting his QB. Despite all of the hooplah around Russ's stats and 'carryng the team' through the bleak years post LOB, its actually the reliance on Russ and building around him at the expense of everything else that derailed the franchise.

Pete is an all time great coach and should be on anyones top 5 list until he chooses to hang them up.

And now that we've moved on from the BS of the 2015 to 2021 years, I bet dollars to donuts he adds to his legacy.

Best Total DVOA 1950-2019 (estimated 1950-1984)​
Rank​	Team​	Total DVOA​	Offense​	Defense​	ST​
1	WAS 1991*	56.9%​	27.2%​	-21.1%​	8.6%​
2	NE 2007	52.9%​	43.5%​	-5.8%​	3.6%​
3	CHI 1985*	52.5%​	15.1%​	-33.6%​	3.8%​
4	GB 1962*	47.9%​	21.4%​	-20.7%​	5.8%​
5	SF 1987	47.0%​	23.3%​	-22.4%​	1.3%​
6	GB 1961*	46.0%​	27.6%​	-11.6%​	6.8%​
7	NE 2010	44.6%​	42.2%​	2.3%​	4.7%​
8	OAK 1967	44.3%​	11.6%​	-26.0%​	6.8%​
9	PIT 1976	42.7%​	10.4%​	-30.1%​	2.1%​
10	GB 1996*	41.9%​	15.2%​	-19.3%​	7.4%​
11	BAL 2019	41.8%​	27.7%​	-12.7%​	1.5%​
12	BALC 1968	40.9%​	13.0%​	-21.0%​	6.8%​
13	SF 1995	40.1%​	18.6%​	-23.7%​	-2.2%​
14	SEA 2013*	40.0%​	9.4%​	-25.9%​	4.7%​
15	DAL 1968	39.5%​	17.1%​	-15.7%​	6.7%​
16	CLE1 1953	39.2%​	40.2%​	5.6%​	4.7%​
17	KC 1968	38.8%​	15.6%​	-13.2%​	10.0%​
18	SEA 2012	38.7%​	18.5%​	-14.5%​	5.7%​
19	MIA 1973*	38.4%​	19.5%​	-15.6%​	3.3%​
20	SEA 2015	38.1%​	18.7%​	-15.2%​	4.2%​

Before handing the reigns over to Wilson? Dont you mean after losing the LOB and Lynch?

The amount of blame Wilson receives on this site is mind blowing. It seems everything is his fault to some. Crazy.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Including the weather. 16 months and counting..............what a trip.

 

[keasley45]

Russ had elite stats and the team still failed in the playoffs. One would think that maybe it wasnt the QB that was at fault.

You went through some playoff years listing your opinion as to why they failed. Lets take the loss in 2020 to the Rams as an example. The Seahawks beat that same team just a couple weeks prior. McVay learned from the loss and had his team ready. In my opinion, Carrolls game plan seemed and looked almost identical to what they did during the game that they won earlier. The Hawks looked flat and disgruntled because McVay changed things up and Pete didnt. Its another example of why Petes game planning has been in question by not just me, but many. There was no excuse to lose that game. Especially when the starting QB was playing with only 4 fingers on his throwing hand.

There was a game against the Bills too where Carroll openly admitted on air to not understanding what they were doing. Thats not a good thing to hear from your teams head coach.

Bro, we lost that game because we abandoned the run and Russ played horribly. but dont take my word for it.



Russ was 11-27 with as many TDS thrown to the Rams as he had to the Seahawks. We couldnt move the ball through the air at all and refused to run. We made stupid mistakes that kept our offense off the field and gave the Rams, even with a hobbled QB situation, enough chances to win.

But your response is so consistent with the (pete failed) narrative over the years. You can only scheme so much to get an offense to work. Our O had to walk a fine line to operate with Russ. There wasnt the room to shift drastically because outside of the running game, there was little to shift to.

Again, dont take my word for it:

Can Sean Payton Save Russell Wilson?

Ben and Steven look into what went wrong with Russell Wilson’s first year in Denver

www.theringer.com

And the loss to the Bills that you mentioned. The game where Russ threw 4 picks, one to close the first half in the endzone?

Russ turned the ball over 4 times. The Bills scored on all 4. They threw the ball unexpectedly (what Pete mentioned) because we were down a CB when Q Dunbar's injured knee hobbled him and he was getting beat left and right. The Bills didnt have to run. Allen was moving the ball on his arm. SO you cant predict that youll turn the ball over 4 times, lose your starting CB and have to overcome 4 gimme scores.

 

[keasley45]

Before handing the reigns over to Wilson? Dont you mean after losing the LOB and Lynch?

The amount of blame Wilson receives on this site is mind blowing. It seems everything is his fault to some. Crazy.

Its not blame. Its fact. The only thing that makes it hard to believe is the mythology built around his stats and hero plays.

Those elements make it difficult to see the truth that the guy had significant faults on the field that the team schemed around. Thats fact. And so you cant heap praise on him and put blame on the coach when the coach is a significant reason why the player excels.

And its beyond debate that the 'special treatment' he required undermined the chemistry of the team.

thats Pete's bad for allowing it.

Its also beyond debate that Russ has some pretty significant flaws n his game that punch some pretty big holes in the belief that he's all around 'elite'. Look at last year and watch what happens this year.

Pete F'd up in not seeing the error in compromising on accountability and inviting the players that made up the heart of the team to leave. HUGE mistake.

As was continuing to sacrifice performance for a culture after 2015.

Russ deserves credit for helping elevate the franchise. he also needs to shoulder some responsibility for whay the team struggled when any opposition to him was removed from the locker room.

 

[Palmegranite]

Man, that is not how how that game went down. Seahawks defenders were playing 10-15 yards off the Bills receivers so Allen kept throwing to them over and over. Pete's presser he said something to the effect that "we kept expecting them to run every so often so we defended for the run. I don't understand how they threw for 400 yards??" Russell Wilson kept the score from being an embarrassment .

The game plan was shambolic.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Its about the results the team might obtain if those QB's did have better protection. Thats not a hard concept is it? Wilson understood that concept and asked Pete and the FO to improve on that area. They didnt. Its the main reason why I dont blame or have any animosity for Russell leaving. Nothing was ever going to change.

Yes, then he promptly went to another team and found out the problem wasn't the protection, it was him.

Just like you should come to the same conclusion through this entire mind numbing exchange.

But just like Russell, you're delusional and stubborn.

 

[keasley45]

Before handing the reigns over to Wilson? Dont you mean after losing the LOB and Lynch?

The amount of blame Wilson receives on this site is mind blowing. It seems everything is his fault to some. Crazy.

and this:



What other 'Elite' QB has had a play this bad dissected they way its been? Great players have bad games.this is not that. the reason it got so much play is because its SO bad and SO illuminating when taken in context of countless similar failures last year and going back over his career in Seattle.

So i ask you. If your starting QB, who you paid at an elite level, and whos cap hit dictates you can only do so much after you sign him, isnt capable of making plays like that, then what chance do you have to be successful?

THATS the knock on Wilson. And until last year, almost nobody saw the truth, until he put it on tape in primetime.

So how good does a coach have to be to take a guy who cant make this simple a read and help him acheive the statistical level of perfromance he achieved? Thats NOT saying Pete made Russ. Its acknowledging the simple fact that it was both Pete and Russ that found success. And both Pete and Russ that found failure. But you cant elevate Russ without ackowledging how much Pete helped him. And you cant sink Pete for lack of success when the dynamics of the salary cap era skew performance SO much around QB pay, and the HC spent so much energy building a sustainable attack around his QB.

With a situation as murky and enmeshed as the one we experienced post LOB, the only way to get a sense of the truth of any of it is to look at what each does without the other. So far, its pretty obvious .

 

[rcaido]

Bro, we lost that game because we abandoned the run and Russ played horribly. but dont take my word for it.



Russ was 11-27 with as many TDS thrown to the Rams as he had to the Seahawks. We couldnt move the ball through the air at all and refused to run. We made stupid mistakes that kept our offense off the field and gave the Rams, even with a hobbled QB situation, enough chances to win.

But your response is so consistent with the (pete failed) narrative over the years. You can only scheme so much to get an offense to work. Our O had to walk a fine line to operate with Russ. There wasnt the room to shift drastically because outside of the running game, there was little to shift to.

Again, dont take my word for it:

Can Sean Payton Save Russell Wilson?

Ben and Steven look into what went wrong with Russell Wilson’s first year in Denver

www.theringer.com

And the loss to the Bills that you mentioned. The game where Russ threw 4 picks, one to close the first half in the endzone?

Russ turned the ball over 4 times. The Bills scored on all 4. They threw the ball unexpectedly (what Pete mentioned) because we were down a CB when Q Dunbar's injured knee hobbled him and he was getting beat left and right. The Bills didnt have to run. Allen was moving the ball on his arm. SO you cant predict that youll turn the ball over 4 times, lose your starting CB and have to overcome 4 gimme scores.

Yes Russ, played terrible in that game, but everyone was bad. The special teams, the baby tantrum Metcalf, defense, and coaching. It was a total team failure. That was the last time Russ was in the playoff, so that's what we see of his image. If you takeaway the Rams game, Wilson had the highest or 2nd best QB Rating in playoff history.

As for the Bills game, not sure what game you watched. It was nothing like that at all. Wilson didn't throw 4 picks. They were already down 17-0 because Allen played catch with his receivers. No adjustments at all.

 

[keasley45]

Man, that is not how how that game went down. Seahawks defenders were playing 10-15 yards off the Bills receivers so Allen kept throwing to them over and over. Pete's presser he said something to the effect that "we kept expecting them to run every so often so we defended for the run. I don't understand how they threw for 400 yards??" Russell Wilson kept the score from being an embarrassment .

The game plan was shambolic.

The game was poor. The comment was overblown. Russ did turn the ball over 4 times and in the worst situations. And Dunbar was hurt the week or two prior and completely broke during that game. his injury leading up to that game and after affected the entire secondary and defense. We went all in on Dunbar and he broke. Our other depth :

Shaquill Griffin, Tre Flowers, Neiko Thorpe, Linden Stephens

In other words, our CBs outside of Dunbar and Griffin were non existent.

 

[hawkfan68]

Its not blame. Its fact. The only thing that makes it hard to believe is the mythology built around his stats and hero plays.

Those elements make it difficult to see the truth that the guy had significant faults on the field that the team schemed around. Thats fact. And so you cant heap praise on him and put blame on the coach when the coach is a significant reason why the player excels.

And its beyond debate that the 'special treatment' he required undermined the chemistry of the team.

thats Pete's bad for allowing it.

Its also beyond debate that Russ has some pretty significant flaws n his game that punch some pretty big holes in the belief that he's all around 'elite'. Look at last year and watch what happens this year.

Pete F'd up in not seeing the error in compromising on accountability and inviting the players that made up the heart of the team to leave. HUGE mistake.

As was continuing to sacrifice performance for a culture after 2015.

Russ deserves credit for helping elevate the franchise. he also needs to shoulder some responsibility for whay the team struggled when any opposition to him was removed from the locker room.

I can counter this with wildcard playoff game vs the Cowboys in 2019 when the playcalling was ultra conservative that it cost the Seahawks the game. RW was actually throwing the ball well in that game when he was "allowed" to throw.

Cowboys vs. Seahawks final score, takeaways: Dallas rides Ezekiel Elliott to wild playoff win over Seattle

The Cowboys defense shut down the Seahawks for much of the game and Dak Prescott and Elliott did the rest

www.cbssports.com

The Seahawk run defense was terrible in that playoff game - they gave up 91 yards rushing to Elliott in the first half.

There are plenty of reasons why the Seahawks have failed to advance in the playoffs, one player or coach is not the whole reason as some here may seem to think.

 

[keasley45]

Yes Russ, played terrible in that game, but everyone was bad. The special teams, the baby tantrum Metcalf, defense, and coaching. It was a total team failure. That was the last time Russ was in the playoff, so that's what we see of his image. If you takeaway the Rams game, Wilson had the highest or 2nd best QB Rating in playoff history.

As for the Bills game, not sure what game you watched. It was nothing like that at all. Wilson didn't throw 4 picks. They were already down 17-0 because Allen played catch with his receivers. No adjustments at all.

What exactly do you adjust to when you have 1 starting CB, one hobbled CB and 2 guys that filled roster spots against Josh Allen, who that year went nuts?

 

[keasley45]

I can counter this with wildcard playoff game vs the Cowboys in 2019 when the playcalling was ultra conservative that it cost the Seahawks the game. RW was actually throwing the ball well in that game when he was "allowed" to throw.

Cowboys vs. Seahawks final score, takeaways: Dallas rides Ezekiel Elliott to wild playoff win over Seattle

The Cowboys defense shut down the Seahawks for much of the game and Dak Prescott and Elliott did the rest

www.cbssports.com

The Seahawk run defense was terrible in that playoff game - they gave up 91 yards rushing to Elliott in the first half.

There are plenty of reasons why the Seahawks have failed to advance in the playoffs, one player or coach is not the whole reason as some here may seem to think.

The QB is one fo the most significant reasons teams succeed or dont in the playoffs.

 

[keasley45]

We can nitpick games all day. The important piece here is that Russ is assigned far too little repsonsibility for our failures post 2015 and Pete not given enough credit for keeping us in the fight when you consider how hamstrung a team is salary / roster building wise when it pays an Elite salary to a QB, and how astoundingly limited its been shown that that elite qb was.

 

[hawkfan68]

We can nitpick games all day. The important piece here is that Russ is assigned far too little repsonsibility for our failures post 2015 and Pete not given enough credit for keeping us in the fight when you consider how hamstrung a team is salary / roster building wise when it pays an Elite salary to a QB, and how astoundingly limited its been shown that that elite qb was.

Those are not mutually exclusive items, IMO. Both RW and PC deserve credit for the success. Both have factored in to why they have failed too. If Pete didn't like how RW was playing, he had the opportunity to do something about it sooner. He didn't. So he shoulders some of the blame. Do you think Elon Musk succumbs to a web developer at Twitter for things. Pete is the HC plus the VP of Football Operations, he has more power than anyone except for Jody Allen when it comes to the team.

 

[rcaido]

When the LOB left, we were in rebuild mode but still made the playoffs...When they allowed Wilson to throw the ball more, we went 11-5 & 12-4.

Not sure why you think Wilson was a failure after the 2015.

 

[keasley45]

If that is the case, then you need to credit RW for the SB48 win if you are going to blame him for the SB49 and failures afterwards. See how ridiculous that statement is.

I gave him credit for helping to elevate the franchise. But find me ANY article, publication, analysis, expert review, that considered Russel THE significant reason we were in those SBs. All of the talk was about whether he could be more than a game manager. There were articles written during our second run that stated squarely that if Russ didnt play better, we'd squander a chance at history.

Thats just fact.

And im not BLAMING HIM for thise failures. Its pushing back at the notion that Pete isnt deserving of all time great status or is past his prime because of how poorly the team performed when he didnt have an elite defense, or an elite running back. You cant assign more credit to Pete without assigning more blame to Russ.

And as Russ, by his own hand, continues to prove who he is, Pete's true skill is made apparent.

 

[keasley45]

When the LOB left, we were in rebuild mode but still made the playoffs...When they allowed Wilson to throw the ball more, we went 11-5 & 12-4.

Not sure why you think Wilson was a failure after the 2015.

We were also 12-4 in 2020 and couldnt move the ball against good defenses when it mattered.

Youre making my point. When its been proven that as an offense, you cant exploit a 3rd of the field, you cant run screens, you cant run plays from under center, take 3 or 5 step drops, and have to run play action from the shotgun, you have to give the HC credit. Pete and Russ were successful to the degree THEY could be given the circumstances.

Russ didt get to 12-4 on his own. And as the DVOA points out, Seattle has always been the true definition of a TEAM. Pete balanced what Russ could and couldnt do and put him in a situation to flourish. he also tried to balance a team that had skewed heavily toward its QB and moreso in 2018 and after than 15, 16 and 17 to salvage a defense.

But that balancing act always had its limit. But for years, the LIMIT was thought to be Pete and his overly conservative approach. Running is always seen to be more conservatve than passing. But theres little else to do other than run when you have so much to work around. Not conjecture. fact.

 

[keasley45]

Looking forward to revisting this thread after 2023 and 2024...

 

[Weadoption]

imagine what would happen here if Wilson leads the Broncos to a super bowl win?
some posters would have to be institutionalized for several years.