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 Post subject: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:57 pm 
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So I was thinking about how bad the Ms will be again this upcoming year and after reading a projected Mariners lineup on a fan site I thought to myself, why the hell are we even considering dragging out Brendon Ryan again next year? Go out and sign a shortstop that doesnt bat under .200. Seriously maybe I am overreacting but that type of player Ryan is, is everything wrong with Seattle fans' attitudes towards players. He was a frickin' fan favorite last year. Why? Because hes a funny guy and plays good defense. People largely ignored his under FRICKIN .200 (.194 average last year, I cannot begin to explain how bad this is) and still acted like he was this loveable and irreplaceable goof ball on the team. You think the Yankees would stand for a guy batting .200 on their team? You think the Red Sox would? You think any self-respecting fanbase and media member would?

Its unbelievable. OH BUT HES SO LIKEABLE AND HIS DEFENSE! Oh who gives a rats ass. The guy batted under .200 on the year, he should be out.

Mariners organization, you suck.


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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Because like it or not his defense matters and no one better is available. He'll be gone after this year when Franklin is ready to play


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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:10 pm 
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It's not just good defense, it's top of the line defense.

I don't see why that's so laughably dismissed. Sure, once Franklin is ready time to move on, but I don't see who we'd bring in right now that wouldn't most likely be a net loss for the team when you compare the offensive improvement to the defensive drop off.


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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:16 pm 
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jkitsune wrote:
Because like it or not his defense matters and no one better is available. He'll be gone after this year when Franklin is ready to play


You're doing what everyone was doing a couple years ago when everyone thought the Ms would be so good with their pitching and defense. Pitching is obviously very very crucial, but defense is overrated. What is a few fewer errors per year compared to an almost certain out every time he steps up to the plate. Seriously, just think about it. Total number wise there are only a handful of plays that Ryan can make that most other shortstops cant. Thats just the way most defensive plays work. You have most of the balls being hit at him being routine plays, and a one here or there that Ryan makes that a league average short stop couldnt.

You shouldnt be ok with sacrificing even league average hitting with a few beneficial plays here or there. 4 almost guarenteed outs per game isnt worth it. It just doesnt make sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:21 pm 
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His defense does make his BA a bit more bearable but still sub .200 is unacceptable no matter how you slice it. That said, I'd bet the M's are hoping Brendan's poor year at the plate is a fluke. Players have fluke offensive years all the time, both good and bad. It wouldn't be surprising to see his numbers revert back to his career average next season.

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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:39 pm 
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therealjohncarlson wrote:
You're doing what everyone was doing a couple years ago when everyone thought the Ms would be so good with their pitching and defense.

You mean the USS Mariner "it's our way or you're a stupid son of a bitch" way of thinking? Why I just got done reading an anti-Hamilton post by der Führer (Dave Cameron) telling me why I'm an idiot for wanting 8-7 losses (w/actual Mariner home runs) rather than 2-1 losses (w/no actual Mariner home runs). Of course for me, baseball is entertainment...not a boring statistical endeavor of WAR/WHIP/YAWN by Sabermetric sycophants (read: USSMariner.com drones).

But hey, what do I know? I would trade the M's for the Sacramento Kings and the Phoenix Coyotes in a heartbeat. At least their owners would go to the games and their fans would project a bit of testosterone in their attendance; AWOL leadership and golf claps make for a long day at Safeco.

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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:32 pm 
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Ryan needs to go. I appreciate that he's the best SS in the game, but he literally doesn't have a bat and his defense cannot make up for that in the lineup the way it is constructed.

I can't wait for Nick Franklin to be ready.

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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:28 pm 
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If you are going to have a hole in your lineup at the plate, having it be a SS that is top 3 defensively is not bad. There are other players on this team not hitting for shiite AND are not near the defender Ryan is.

He's pretty low on my list of Mariner worries. And it's a long list.

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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Umm. No.

It's not like good hitting shortstops grow on trees. Who the hell are you gonna get to replace him?

Brendan's cheap and might be the best defensive shortstop in the game. He hit .248 in 2011, and no reason he shouldn't bounce back a bit.

We have a potential SS in the system in Nick Franklin that'll be up in the somewhat near future and adding Andino means we might get a little more production when Ryan sits. Ryan's not ideal but to think we should get rid of him because the rest of the team doesn't hit enough is ridiculous. It's a hell of a lot easier to find power at positions not SS. Seriously. I'm not saying he's a a cornerstone or anything or if an upgrade comes along we shouldn't take it but he's a perfect stopgap.

This is just stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:34 pm 
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therealjohncarlson wrote:
jkitsune wrote:
Because like it or not his defense matters and no one better is available. He'll be gone after this year when Franklin is ready to play


You're doing what everyone was doing a couple years ago when everyone thought the Ms would be so good with their pitching and defense. Pitching is obviously very very crucial, but defense is overrated. What is a few fewer errors per year compared to an almost certain out every time he steps up to the plate. Seriously, just think about it. Total number wise there are only a handful of plays that Ryan can make that most other shortstops cant. Thats just the way most defensive plays work. You have most of the balls being hit at him being routine plays, and a one here or there that Ryan makes that a league average short stop couldnt.

You shouldnt be ok with sacrificing even league average hitting with a few beneficial plays here or there. 4 almost guarenteed outs per game isnt worth it. It just doesnt make sense.


No, I'm not doing that. At all. I'm saying that his defense brings some value and, taking that into account, there isn't a player available who, for the price, would be a significant upgrade. Shortstops in general are a light-hitting position, save for a few remarkable players, and on the 'cheap free agent market' you're looking at a .240-.250 hitter probably. I'm not thinking of a specific player in general, but this is what your typical free-agent unremarkable shortstop hits. That's basically what's available. They might hit 5-10 HR.

In return, you lose some substantial portion of defense. I can't quantify for you whether that's equivalent to the .05 upgrade in batting average and the 4 extra homers. I dont' think anyone can - advanced defensive metrics are a bit flukey, and it's hard to judge for certain exactly what numbers you'd need to have to even out defense and offense. I think we can both agree that defense is not worth 'nothing,' however, so it's reasonable to assume that the drop off in defense would eat up some portion of the extra offense.

For that increase, how much do you pay? Is there a difference in price? I'm not sure, but that obviously comes into play.

Also, defense is not measured in errors, really. It's measured in the plays which are turned into outs that 'normal' players don't make. Those gappers that only a talented SS runs down - failing to get it doesn't create an error, but it does create offense for the other team in the form of baserunners and runs.

I'm not 'okay' with Ryan's offense. Hitting .200 is not acceptable. If Ryan hit .240 with no power and had his defense I'd be thrilled. I don't think we're actually in disagreement that he needs to be replaced. That said, I'm not convinced there's anything on the market right now worth pursuing that would overall improve the team. Ryan will be gone in a year regardless.


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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:05 pm 
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DohBoy wrote:
therealjohncarlson wrote:
You're doing what everyone was doing a couple years ago when everyone thought the Ms would be so good with their pitching and defense.

You mean the USS Mariner "it's our way or you're a stupid son of a bitch" way of thinking? Why I just got done reading an anti-Hamilton post by der Führer (Dave Cameron) telling me why I'm an idiot for wanting 8-7 losses (w/actual Mariner home runs) rather than 2-1 losses (w/no actual Mariner home runs). Of course for me, baseball is entertainment...not a boring statistical endeavor of WAR/WHIP/YAWN by Sabermetric sycophants (read: USSMariner.com drones).

But hey, what do I know? I would trade the M's for the Sacramento Kings and the Phoenix Coyotes in a heartbeat. At least their owners would go to the games and their fans would project a bit of testosterone in their attendance; AWOL leadership and golf claps make for a long day at Safeco.

DohBoy


I can't tell, but it sounds like what you're saying is that you'd rather lose more with home runs than win more without home runs. If that's honestly your point of view, and I'm not convinced that's actually what you meant, there's not much of a point in debating. I'd much rather be the 2012 San Francisco Giants than the 1993 Mariners.

On the other hand, if what you're saying is that it's harder to watch a losing team without home runs than an equally losing team with home runs, I would agree with you. I wouldn't trade wins for home runs though.


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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:46 am 
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He's just filling the gap until Franklin's ready. They will use Andino too from time to time when needed, especially if Ryan is slumping and the rest of the lineup is doing anything. Ideally, the lineup I'd like to see as of right now is Ackley 2b, Franklin Gutierrez cf, Kendry Morales 1b, Jesus Montero c/dh, Kyle Seager 3b, Justin Smoak dh/1b, Eric Thames rf, Michael Saunders lf, and Brendan Ryan/Andino ss. Hopefully they make a move to get one more power bat and maybe Bourne. That would put a lot more speed and average at the top of the order where it's needed for Montero, Morales, and Seager to drive more guys in. Then you wouldn't have to worry about Ryan as much not hitting at shortstop. But I have to admit, his defense is stellar. He's one of the best in the league at the position right now and has been for awhile. His play is still very valuable to the team. Lol, they should almost play him like a pitcher though the way he hits by making him sacrifice all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Why the hell is Brendon Ryan still projected to start for Ms
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:27 pm 
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I'm all for ripping how lame the M's offense is. But SS isn't the spot to be freaking out over.

Do you realize just how weak the average SS hits? I don't know where I'd be able to look it up. But the average starting SS in baseball does not hit well at all. It's been a trend over the years. There are very few top hitting SS's. Factor that in with the fact that Ryan plays all-world defense, it makes more sense than the OP wants to believe.

Now what exactly do you need good defense at SS for when the rest of your team is terrible and your season is over before the All-Star break? That I can't tell you.

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