Why I posted a hypothetical poll

I feel sorry for your keyboard. Those poor keys. That poor space bar.

Zebulon Dak":r8iut11t said:

I love that rooting for the starting QB to succeed is a bad thing now.

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I love rooting for the starting Quarterback to succeed, but I don't root for him to make mistakes.
The fact that there were key passes that got dropped by his Receivers is the one reason that I don't blame this loss on Wilson.
The type of Defense tha 49rs play, looks for tendencies of the QB's, and plan on ways to neutralize him, and for the secong half they did exactly that.
Deep balls are fantastic when they find their targets, but sometimes you have to take advantage of the holes in the Defense on short passes, and that seems to be his area of weakness.
Hell, it worked great for Smith, and he's nothing great, but he played for whatever the Seahawks Defense let him have, plus, Gore having his way only opened up even more options for him.

I don't know if Bevel screwed up RW with his game plan, but 20 yards passing in the second half by Wilson is just poor execution by someone ,and the fact that good QB's will put the team on their back, he just didn't show that he could do that.

No, no, we can't possibly give credit to the 49ers defense for playing at the elite level they have been for the past 2 season, no way!!!!

Can't put the team on his back? did you miss the NE game, bro?

SalishHawkFan":1i7ydv18 said:

It's not a crappy logic trap to recognize that this offense is doing worse than they were last year. They're rated 30th overall in offense and 31st in passing offense. This offense IS worse than it was when TJack led it. That's not "crappy logic trap", that's called a FACT.

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The bolded isn't a fact – it's just how you choose to interpret the stats. Sorting by YPG and saying that's the order of quality offenses isn't very useful to me. Base numbers like YPG ignore things like scheme and playcalling that have diminished Wilson's productivity. By DVOA, the 2011 Seahawks had the #22 offense (#21 passing, #14 rushing) and the 2012 Seahawks through week 6 had the #22 offense (#20 passing, #11 rushing). The 2012 team's 3.2% passing offense DVOA is better than the 2011 team's 0.1% passing offense DVOA. It's reasonable to argue that this year's offense has been more efficient than last year's, and a better scheme with better playcalling might have produced better raw numbers like YPG and PPG.

SalishHawkFan":1i7ydv18 said:

WIN NOW vs build a dynasty. That's the REAL argument that the Wilson supporters refuse to engage in. It's because they can't win that argument with a Seattle fan base and they know it.

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You're missing the point that many people don't see this as a “win now vs. build a dynasty” debate. I believe that this year's Seahawks team has a better chance to win the Super Bowl with Wilson than it would have with Flynn as the starting QB. The better question is why do you think Flynn gives the team a better chance to win now? Is there something more than the Detroit game where the Packers' receivers ran through the Lions' swiss cheese secondary and the moderate contract our FO gave Flynn after no one else (including his former OC) gave him the big contact he was looking for?

Just to add a few more stats to dispute your claim that Jackson was better than Wilson:

2011 Jackson: 5.1 ANY/A, 6.9 Y/A, 11.4 Y/C, 60.2 Comp%, 79.2 Rating, 2.9 INT%, 8.5 Sack%

2012 Wilson: 5.2 ANY/A, 7.0 Y/A, 11.8 Y/C, 59.4 Comp%, 79.5 Rating, 4.0 INT%, 7.4 Sack%

The numbers are almost identical across the board, but they don't consider that this year's offensive scheme has been much more restricting on the quarterback, which means that Wilson's stats are deflated compared to what they would look like in a more pass-friendly offense.

TJ! TJ! TJ!

jackson was far from a rookie last year. in fact, he and everyone else in the world knew it would be his last year ever unless he did something amazing. it could be argued that a similar scenario exists for wilson. but that argument wouldn't hold water in my opinion. i'd be interested to see stats of jackson's rookie year versus wilson's. actually, no, I wouldn't. I've done WAY too much reading already tonight.

Comparing Tjack to RW is redundant.Two different QB's one is a playmaker and a rookie and the other is a 7 year vet scared to make a decision.RW has won more last minute comebacks than Tjack ever will.RW believes in himself while Tjack needs to have his diaper changed for him.I could go on.......Stats are for record books and bean counters who know nothing about how to make those numbers.

It's amazing how many people think this thread is about comparing TJack to Wilson.

Has no mobility? I think even Flynn would admit that.. to say Flynn has mobility and that was something the wilson supporters made up is WEAK SAUCE..

wow.. Flynn is a great back up. maybe more .. but you know what you don't get to decide that...

This thread is about comparing fantasy to reality.

I wish we lived in fantasy land.. I'd be the head coach.. i'd start Flynn and he be everything OP thought he is..

BUT i don't - I just get to coach my son's flag football team.. DAMN i did something wrong in a previous life..

jewhawk":29vnvqzo said:

SalishHawkFan":29vnvqzo said:

WIN NOW vs build a dynasty. That's the REAL argument that the Wilson supporters refuse to engage in. It's because they can't win that argument with a Seattle fan base and they know it.

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You're missing the point that many people don't see this as a “win now vs. build a dynasty” debate. I believe that this year's Seahawks team has a better chance to win the Super Bowl with Wilson than it would have with Flynn as the starting QB. The better question is why do you think Flynn gives the team a better chance to win now? Is there something more than the Detroit game where the Packers' receivers ran through the Lions' swiss cheese secondary and the moderate contract our FO gave Flynn after no one else (including his former OC) gave him the big contact he was looking for?

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:13: jewhawk

Wilson gives a better chance to win now....it's why the experts...coaching staff decided to start him week 1. Wilson is more experienced.....his college career had him more ready to play than the 9 years of bench warming Flynn has had. 15 starts in 9 years is not "experience"....it means you are not starting material.

I think one thing people are forgetting in all of this mess is that we are no longer in the Holmgren era in Seattle. Coming from the Green Bay school of QB's, Hasslebeck and Flynn would have been great in the Holmgren era and offense, but this is no longer that time. When they tried to insert Hass into Pete's system the results were less than desirable, and at times down right ugly. When they moved onto T-Jack things did improve. Maybe not where the fans would have liked it to be, but it was an improvement none the less. Perhaps the reason Flynn is sitting on the bench is because he is not as good a fit for Pete Carroll's system? Just a shot in the dark here and I'm most likely talking to a wall, but if you think about it, it makes sense.

SalishHawkFan":3lhhrjhl said:

Original post

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Please explain why this wall of text needed a new thread. I suggest starting another thread to do so.

SalishHawkFan":6modaw4e said:

It's amazing how many people think this thread is about comparing TJack to Wilson.

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That's because it is. Much of your post revolves around this line of thought:

SalishHawkFan":6modaw4e said:

Flynn supporters whole belief system is predicated upon the idea that you WIN NOW and that Flynn gives you the best chance. If Wilson isn't an upgrade over TJack - RIGHT NOW, screw the future - and you believe that Flynn IS an upgrade over TJack ( and over 80% of the people on here do), then it seems logical to Flynn supporters that it was a huge mistake to have started Wilson in the first place.

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Which is logical if you agree with your three premises. That
1) Wilson isn't an upgrade over Jackson;
2) Flynn is an upgrade over Jackson; and
3) Winning now is more important than building for the future.

The problem is you want to assume that points (1) and (2) are truths and have a debate about (3). But many of the Wilson supporters actually agree with point (3), but disagree with (1) and/or (2).

A better question than your hypothetical “Flynn or Jackson” would be to ask people to rank the three QBs in order of how well you think they would perform this year only:
a) Wilson > Flynn > Jackson
b) Wilson > Jackson > Flynn
c) Flynn > Wilson > Jackson
d) Flynn > Jackson > Wilson
e) Jackson > Wilson > Flynn
f) Jackson > Flynn > Wilson

If that were the question, you and I both know the overwhelming majority would have voted for (a). FWIW, I would have voted for (b) in that scenario.

SalishHawkFan":6modaw4e said:

No, the reason for my hypothetical poll was to point out something more important to .net than who is better Flynn or Wilson. What I wanted to show was the way Wilson supporters are treating Flynn supporters and point out that it is detrimental to this website for a small, fanatic group of Wilson supporters to lambast those who believe Flynn would have done betterj to the degree to which they are doing so.

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If that was your main point, you could have just said “Hey guys, there's no need to be such extreme a-holes to anyone who has a different opinion from yours.” There would have been no need for the hypothetical because the hypothetical doesn't have anything to do with people trolling or lambasting others. The point of the hypothetical was to strengthen the Flynn supporters' arguments with the logic that “if Wilson isn't better than Jackson, and Flynn would be better than Jackson, then by that logic Flynn would have been better than Wilson.” But it ignores the point that most of the people who voted for Flynn over Jackson in your hypothetical would have also voted for Wilson over Jackson, and many would have voted for Wilson over Flynn.

No, your last thread was still a crappy logic trap.

And now there's a small band of fanatical Wilson supporters? You're entering into disheveled, awkwardly sweaty paranoia here. I know this thread was packed with logic, facts, and rational thought (or three concepts people overemphasize to prop up their subjective opinion), but I like lollipops and FIRE. GO RUSSELL.

This thread, just like your original poll thread, was ABSOLUTELY necessary.

Somebody forward this to Coach so he can know what he needs to do next weekend.

SalishHawkFan":xapep8w0 said:

T-Sizzle":xapep8w0 said:

Its one thing to be a Flynn supporter, its another to continue to call for it OVER and OVER and OVER again when its clear the direction the TEAM wants to go. Flynn guys need to drop it and get behind our QBOTF and QB of NOW.

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I totally understand where you're coming from. but when that many people believe Flynn would have been an upgrade you've got to expect to hear it over and over and over again. The people leading the charge aren't going to quiet down until they've been given reason to. Calling them stupid, banning people over the smallest excuse, giving the same "Wilson's a rookie, be patient" excuses aren't gonna fly. Either Wilson improves on the field, which will shut everyone up, or you've got to go with the fact that it's kinda too late now. But it's not too late.

Which means Wilson supporters should be thick skinned about it. Afterall, if you're truly as confident that the guy will be our QBOTF, then what do you have to worry about? What prompts this overreaction to what is truly a legitimate sentiment? Just back off.

You're not going to silence the calls anyways. Only Wilson can do that.

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Wilson hasn't been "bad" enough to warrant switching QB's. We have been in every game this year and probably all of them or all but one was because of the defensive play. Still that being said Wilson is a rookie and his numbers are actually not that bad. Future HOF QB's have started much worse, and hell success wasn't even supposed to happen this early. I still think 8-8 is the most fair record any true Seahawk fan could want out of this team, this year. Anything more is overachieving. Just my two cents.