Concerning our desire for more "Traditional Play" @ QB

Sgt. Largent":4r3zoiqh said:

chris98251":4r3zoiqh said:

Pete is a enigma, he Coached in Minny for Bud Grant, they had a powerful defense but a pretty wide open offense as well with a guy that was considered a somewhat mobile QB at the time, why Pete doesn't take the lid off Wilson is perplexing.

Click to expand...

Not sure why people think it's Pete and not Russell.

Pete's had numerous drop back pocket QB's, both in the pros and at USC.........and all VERY successful, to tune of multiple Heisman's.

IMO this is a Russell issue, not a Pete issue. I'm sure Pete would love for Russell to take his 3-5 step drops, go through his progressions and get the ball out on time.

But that's not who Russell is, nor who he's ever been. He's a tempo/rhythm QB that relies on his feet to buy time and find open receivers. It's a messier style of offense that sometimes is a detriment to his line and receivers not knowing what's going on.

So that's what you're seeing, and again IMO it's not Pete or a coordinator thing, it's a Russell thing.

Click to expand...

Because Pete himself has said so, he has said you can't win in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd which means no mistakes, safe plays. This leads to QBs thinking twice and doubting, He is the HC he has provided an oline that is not even College level. As to not what Wilson ins let me remind you, 2nd half of 2015 where he did just that, or any time we have run the uptempo were again he does just that. So sorry this is indeed a Pete thing has the evidence shows.

Sgt. Largent":3g8nwjsi said:

adeltaY":3g8nwjsi said:

I firmly believe the Reid/Pederson style of offense would accentuate Wilson's strengths and hide his weaknesses far more than what Bev was doing.

Throw in McVay and Shanny, though Wilson's out of pocket shenanigans might drive him insane.

Click to expand...

I think this is what Pete and Schottenheimer are trying to figure out with Russell, and why we've heard from all involved that they want to get back to the pound the rock and play action..........which is what suits Russell best.

btw, I also think that's what Bevell and Pete have been trying to do, just not successfully because our line stunk and we couldn't find a RB to replace Marshawn.

But again, to pin this on Pete, or Pete and Bevell makes no sense to me.

Click to expand...

To pin it on Wilson and give Pete and Bevel a pass makes no sense. Wilson runs what they call and what they lay out, As we have seen it rarely works without Wilson doing his thing or uptempo. You found an offense that works and you chose not to use it unless you are forced to that is indeed on Pete and then Bevel.

It is illogical to give them a pass and instead blame the guy who made up over 95% of our Offensive TDs and over 82% of our offensive yards both NFL records. Given what both Pete and Shotty have said about how great a QB Wilson is and it is not logical to give Pete or Bevel a pass and pin it all on Wilson. sorry but to me, this is the most absurd thing I have read, and the facts just don't support it.

Hawk1217":1jj44bx4 said:

Sgt. Largent":1jj44bx4 said:

chris98251":1jj44bx4 said:

Pete is a enigma, he Coached in Minny for Bud Grant, they had a powerful defense but a pretty wide open offense as well with a guy that was considered a somewhat mobile QB at the time, why Pete doesn't take the lid off Wilson is perplexing.

Click to expand...

Not sure why people think it's Pete and not Russell.

Pete's had numerous drop back pocket QB's, both in the pros and at USC.........and all VERY successful, to tune of multiple Heisman's.

IMO this is a Russell issue, not a Pete issue. I'm sure Pete would love for Russell to take his 3-5 step drops, go through his progressions and get the ball out on time.

But that's not who Russell is, nor who he's ever been. He's a tempo/rhythm QB that relies on his feet to buy time and find open receivers. It's a messier style of offense that sometimes is a detriment to his line and receivers not knowing what's going on.

So that's what you're seeing, and again IMO it's not Pete or a coordinator thing, it's a Russell thing.

Click to expand...

Because Pete himself has said so, he has said you can't win in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd which means no mistakes, safe plays. This leads to QBs thinking twice and doubting, He is the HC he has provided an oline that is not even College level. As to not what Wilson ins let me remind you, 2nd half of 2015 where he did just that, or any time we have run the uptempo were again he does just that. So sorry this is indeed a Pete thing has the evidence shows.

Click to expand...

I don't even know what you're trying to say.

Watch or listen to any local or national analyst talking about Russell, and you'll hear them talking about how he consistently holds the ball too long, misses seeing open receivers and needs to get into a confidence tempo/rhythm before trusting his reads.

Sure the O-line being crap ties into that, because it causes happy feet and bailing the pocket early. But again, that's on Russell, not Pete.

If we're assigning blame as to why our offense has been too inconsistent the past couple of years, Pete is pretty far down the list.

1. O-line
2. No dependable consistent RB
3. Predictable scheme/playcalling
4. Lack of consistent WR production other than Doug

Pete? Not sure what to say, if he went into the offensive meeting room and yelled "ALRIGHT RUSSELL, I'M TAKING THE LEASH OFF, YOU GO ON WITH YOUR BAD SELF!"

wth would that do? Amazing how good Russell was when we had Marshawn and a good O-line.

Sgt. Largent":fu2xwhqj said:

Hawk1217":fu2xwhqj said:

Sgt. Largent":fu2xwhqj said:

chris98251":fu2xwhqj said:

Pete is a enigma, he Coached in Minny for Bud Grant, they had a powerful defense but a pretty wide open offense as well with a guy that was considered a somewhat mobile QB at the time, why Pete doesn't take the lid off Wilson is perplexing.

Click to expand...

Not sure why people think it's Pete and not Russell.

Pete's had numerous drop back pocket QB's, both in the pros and at USC.........and all VERY successful, to tune of multiple Heisman's.

IMO this is a Russell issue, not a Pete issue. I'm sure Pete would love for Russell to take his 3-5 step drops, go through his progressions and get the ball out on time.

But that's not who Russell is, nor who he's ever been. He's a tempo/rhythm QB that relies on his feet to buy time and find open receivers. It's a messier style of offense that sometimes is a detriment to his line and receivers not knowing what's going on.

So that's what you're seeing, and again IMO it's not Pete or a coordinator thing, it's a Russell thing.

Click to expand...

Because Pete himself has said so, he has said you can't win in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd which means no mistakes, safe plays. This leads to QBs thinking twice and doubting, He is the HC he has provided an oline that is not even College level. As to not what Wilson ins let me remind you, 2nd half of 2015 where he did just that, or any time we have run the uptempo were again he does just that. So sorry this is indeed a Pete thing has the evidence shows.

Click to expand...

I don't even know what you're trying to say.

Watch or listen to any local or national analyst talking about Russell, and you'll hear them talking about how he consistently holds the ball too long, misses seeing open receivers and needs to get into a confidence tempo/rhythm before trusting his reads.

Sure the O-line being crap ties into that, because it causes happy feet and bailing the pocket early. But again, that's on Russell, not Pete.

If we're assigning blame as to why our offense has been too inconsistent the past couple of years, Pete is pretty far down the list.

1. O-line
2. No dependable consistent RB
3. Predictable scheme/playcalling
4. Lack of consistent WR production other than Doug

Pete? Not sure what to say, if he went into the offensive meeting room and yelled "ALRIGHT RUSSELL, I'M TAKING THE LEASH OFF, YOU GO ON WITH YOUR BAD SELF!"

wth would that do? Amazing how good Russell was when we had Marshawn and a good O-line.

Click to expand...

1 I agree Pete is farther down on the list than some of the things you mention, Guess what so is Wilson. As to what Pete can say oh I don't know how about "okay we do great in uptempo we are running it all the time now", OR okay let's get the play into Wilson with 20 seconds left and let him decide what to do or audible. I can go on and on there are things she can do and have not.

All that said we are not going to get anyplace, so lets agree to disagree

Hawk1217":3f1jp95z said:

1 I agree Pete is farther down on the list than some of the things you mention, Guess what so is Wilson. As to what Pete can say oh I don't know how about "okay we do great in uptempo we are running it all the time now", OR okay let's get the play into Wilson with 20 seconds left and let him decide what to do or audible. I can go on and on there are things she can do and have not.

All that said we are not going to get anyplace, so lets agree to disagree

Click to expand...

I used to agree with this sentiment. I've said during the past couple of years to unleash Russell and go up tempo offense.........but as we've seen when the run game isn't working, that's not a successful and/or consistent offense. It also lends itself to Russell being broken and half and getting hammered over and over.

Yes you can have a game like against Houston where it looks like you just can't stop us. But it can also look like games against the Rams at home and on the road against Jacksonville where our offense can't even get a first down.

To beat those teams, of which most in the playoffs ARE those types of nasty defenses you need to do what we did with Marshawn, pound the rock, wear them down and control the clock to keep our young exposable defense off the field.

Worst thing you can be in the NFL is predictable, and IMO that's been our biggest problem of late. Believe me, Pete knows.

Sgt. Largent":3vzvzfh6 said:

Hawk1217":3vzvzfh6 said:

1 I agree Pete is farther down on the list than some of the things you mention, Guess what so is Wilson. As to what Pete can say oh I don't know how about "okay we do great in uptempo we are running it all the time now", OR okay let's get the play into Wilson with 20 seconds left and let him decide what to do or audible. I can go on and on there are things she can do and have not.

All that said we are not going to get anyplace, so lets agree to disagree

Click to expand...

I used to agree with this sentiment. I've said during the past couple of years to unleash Russell and go up tempo offense.........but as we've seen when the run game isn't working, that's not a successful and/or consistent offense. It also lends itself to Russell being broken and half and getting hammered over and over.

Yes you can have a game like against Houston where it looks like you just can't stop us. But it can also look like games against the Rams at home and on the road against Jacksonville where our offense can't even get a first down.

To beat those teams, of which most in the playoffs ARE those types of nasty defenses you need to do what we did with Marshawn, pound the rock, wear them down and control the clock to keep our young exposable defense off the field.

Worst thing you can be in the NFL is predictable, and IMO that's been our biggest problem of late. Believe me, Pete knows.

Click to expand...

I agree with this last statement. I think one of our biggest issues is how late the play gets into the QB. I think if we could get it in earlier and give the QB time to make checks, and audibles things would go better. I believe Pete even said something about that when he hired Shotty. That said the main reason we struggled getting the play in fast, a lot of that was the structure of having an OC, and an oline/running coach who was the Asst HC and had to have his say in the play call. Pete also mentioned that. Perhaps just getting the play in quicker will change things, give the QB and the players time to adjust, audbile whatever. I guess we will see.

Pete and/or Bev, whatever combo, do not have close to the level of creativity of designing an offense as Reid or Peterson. Throw Cable in there too because his blocking schemes weren't that varied. The way Pederson used different blocking schemes in the run game was fascinating. There was a play in the SB where half their line pass blocked and half run blocked and the DL was stumped, resulting in a huge hole for Ajayi. When the Eagles played the Broncos they did an amazing job of scheming Von Miller out of plays by leaving him unblocked as a read player and they shredded that defense. Shanahan made mincemeat out of our cover three system twice in 2016. Pederson annihilated the #1 scoring D with Nick Foles at QB.

Those are just a couple examples. How often were we doing that? Funnily enough, our best called and executed game was against the Eagles where Bev focused on getting rid of the ball quickly with rub routes to beat the Eagles' man coverage. Even then, we relied on some Wilson magic to sustain drives. The problem is that those kinds of games were too few and far between. If you can run it down their throats, cool, but if you can't, it's time to get creative and we rarely saw that.

adeltaY":31oi58v3 said:

Pete and/or Bev, whatever combo, do not have close to the level of creativity of designing an offense as Reid or Peterson. Throw Cable in there too because his blocking schemes weren't that varied. The way Pederson used different blocking schemes in the run game was fascinating. There was a play in the SB where half their line pass blocked and half run blocked and the DL was stumped, resulting in a huge hole for Ajayi. When the Eagles played the Broncos they did an amazing job of scheming Von Miller out of plays by leaving him unblocked as a read player and they shredded that defense. Shanahan made mincemeat out of our cover three system twice in 2016. Pederson annihilated the #1 scoring D with Nick Foles at QB.

Those are just a couple examples. How often were we doing that? Funnily enough, our best called and executed game was against the Eagles where Bev focused on getting rid of the ball quickly with rub routes to beat the Eagles' man coverage. Even then, we relied on some Wilson magic to sustain drives. The problem is that those kinds of games were too few and far between. If you can run it down their throats, cool, but if you can't, it's time to get creative and we rarely saw that.

Click to expand...

Yeah but are Solari and Schottenheimer better or worse than Bevell/Cable?

Neither is known for their complex dynamic offensive blocking or schemes. So idk, as much as I'm glad we've turned the page on Bevell and Cable.................I'm not jumping up and down that we now have two other journeymen line coaches and coordinators.

I'm just worried that Pete's doing some sort of last ditch effort to getting back to basics on offense, when the rest of the top teams in the league are sprinting past us with dynamic innovative scheme and playcalling.

Very few places has this sort of mentality worked, where after down year(s) bringing in re-treads was wildly successful.

CamanoIslandJQ":1tb9r4rq said:

I agree with a lot of this except IMO, many of RW's sacks are when a totally unblocked defender has a straight path at tackling him, often within 1-2 seconds after the snap.

Click to expand...

Those are the ones that stick out in the mind for sure, but at least last season they weren't nearly as common as they seemed. And at least two of the gifs that were posted here too often were the result of blitzes not picked up and hot routes not hit.

Sgt. Largent":2j1325wu said:

chris98251":2j1325wu said:

Pete is a enigma, he Coached in Minny for Bud Grant, they had a powerful defense but a pretty wide open offense as well with a guy that was considered a somewhat mobile QB at the time, why Pete doesn't take the lid off Wilson is perplexing.

Click to expand...

Not sure why people think it's Pete and not Russell.

Pete's had numerous drop back pocket QB's, both in the pros and at USC.........and all VERY successful, to tune of multiple Heisman's.

IMO this is a Russell issue, not a Pete issue. I'm sure Pete would love for Russell to take his 3-5 step drops, go through his progressions and get the ball out on time.

But that's not who Russell is, nor who he's ever been. He's a tempo/rhythm QB that relies on his feet to buy time and find open receivers. It's a messier style of offense that sometimes is a detriment to his line and receivers not knowing what's going on.

So that's what you're seeing, and again IMO it's not Pete or a coordinator thing, it's a Russell thing.

Click to expand...

Yet he has jumped on Wilson for taking risks and drilling into him don't take chances with the ball since day one. Ball control and turnovers are Pete's big thing, not making them is really big.

As far as what I was talking about.

[youtube]zoNEZL-kUuk[/youtube]

Does he hold the ball too long also ?

chris98251":1wdvr58e said:

Sgt. Largent":1wdvr58e said:

chris98251":1wdvr58e said:

Pete is a enigma, he Coached in Minny for Bud Grant, they had a powerful defense but a pretty wide open offense as well with a guy that was considered a somewhat mobile QB at the time, why Pete doesn't take the lid off Wilson is perplexing.

Click to expand...

Not sure why people think it's Pete and not Russell.

Pete's had numerous drop back pocket QB's, both in the pros and at USC.........and all VERY successful, to tune of multiple Heisman's.

IMO this is a Russell issue, not a Pete issue. I'm sure Pete would love for Russell to take his 3-5 step drops, go through his progressions and get the ball out on time.

But that's not who Russell is, nor who he's ever been. He's a tempo/rhythm QB that relies on his feet to buy time and find open receivers. It's a messier style of offense that sometimes is a detriment to his line and receivers not knowing what's going on.

So that's what you're seeing, and again IMO it's not Pete or a coordinator thing, it's a Russell thing.

Click to expand...

Yet he has jumped on Wilson for taking risks and drilling into him don't take chances with the ball since day one. Ball control and turnovers are Pete's big thing, not making them is really big.

As far as what I was talking about.

[youtube]zoNEZL-kUuk[/youtube]

Does he hold the ball too long also ?

Click to expand...

I could post a video of Jeff George's pro highlights that make him look like the 2nd coming of Joe Montana.

That doesn't prove anything. It is a valid criticism of Russell, whether you like it or not...........and btw, I'm not saying I don't like it.

My point is people blaming Pete or Bevell for how Russell plays QB is insane to me. It's his style, you can't turn Russell into a progression pocket QB, you just can't.

Ask Holmgren, he spend a LONG time trying to change Brett Favre.............and it won't work here either. You play to a QB's strength. Which for Russell is running the ball to keep the defense up close, then you burn them with play action and read option.

Sgt. Largent":3pdrlrsc said:

chris98251":3pdrlrsc said:

Sgt. Largent":3pdrlrsc said:

chris98251":3pdrlrsc said:

Pete is a enigma, he Coached in Minny for Bud Grant, they had a powerful defense but a pretty wide open offense as well with a guy that was considered a somewhat mobile QB at the time, why Pete doesn't take the lid off Wilson is perplexing.

Click to expand...

Not sure why people think it's Pete and not Russell.

Pete's had numerous drop back pocket QB's, both in the pros and at USC.........and all VERY successful, to tune of multiple Heisman's.

IMO this is a Russell issue, not a Pete issue. I'm sure Pete would love for Russell to take his 3-5 step drops, go through his progressions and get the ball out on time.

But that's not who Russell is, nor who he's ever been. He's a tempo/rhythm QB that relies on his feet to buy time and find open receivers. It's a messier style of offense that sometimes is a detriment to his line and receivers not knowing what's going on.

So that's what you're seeing, and again IMO it's not Pete or a coordinator thing, it's a Russell thing.

Click to expand...

Yet he has jumped on Wilson for taking risks and drilling into him don't take chances with the ball since day one. Ball control and turnovers are Pete's big thing, not making them is really big.

As far as what I was talking about.

[youtube]zoNEZL-kUuk[/youtube]

Does he hold the ball too long also ?

Click to expand...

I could post a video of Jeff George's pro highlights that make him look like the 2nd coming of Joe Montana.

That doesn't prove anything. It is a valid criticism of Russell, whether you like it or not...........and btw, I'm not saying I don't like it.

My point is people blaming Pete or Bevell for how Russell plays QB is insane to me. It's his style, you can't turn Russell into a progression pocket QB, you just can't.

Ask Holmgren, he spend a LONG time trying to change Brett Favre.............and it won't work here either. You play to a QB's strength. Which for Russell is running the ball to keep the defense up close, then you burn them with play action and read option.

Click to expand...

Okay so I want to understand this, the HC who controls everything, and the OC who calls and designs everything, have no blame for the maturation of a QB they have had since he was a Rookie. Just checking because that is what you are saying. Hmmm Yeah sorry, that does not pass any test at all. FYI Wilson was a pocket passer during most of 2015 where he was great. Also once again he has one of the best QB ratings, complt% in the pocket. However, you can't expect him to stay in the pocket when he has one of the worse Oline in the league and a lot of long slow developing plays. Both are things the OC and HC do have a lot of control over. FYI playing to Wilson strengths is getting him to the line with a lot of time so he can make adjustments, you know 2015 remember that. What happened as soon as Lynch came back, they went right back to the same old thing that did not work. Wilson does not call the plays, create the plays, or provide the players for the plays that is the HC and OC and as such, they deserve and rightfully so blame.

Sgt. Largent":1iba769n said:

chris98251":1iba769n said:

Sgt. Largent":1iba769n said:

chris98251":1iba769n said:

Pete is a enigma, he Coached in Minny for Bud Grant, they had a powerful defense but a pretty wide open offense as well with a guy that was considered a somewhat mobile QB at the time, why Pete doesn't take the lid off Wilson is perplexing.

Click to expand...

Not sure why people think it's Pete and not Russell.

Pete's had numerous drop back pocket QB's, both in the pros and at USC.........and all VERY successful, to tune of multiple Heisman's.

IMO this is a Russell issue, not a Pete issue. I'm sure Pete would love for Russell to take his 3-5 step drops, go through his progressions and get the ball out on time.

But that's not who Russell is, nor who he's ever been. He's a tempo/rhythm QB that relies on his feet to buy time and find open receivers. It's a messier style of offense that sometimes is a detriment to his line and receivers not knowing what's going on.

So that's what you're seeing, and again IMO it's not Pete or a coordinator thing, it's a Russell thing.

Click to expand...

Yet he has jumped on Wilson for taking risks and drilling into him don't take chances with the ball since day one. Ball control and turnovers are Pete's big thing, not making them is really big.

As far as what I was talking about.

[youtube]zoNEZL-kUuk[/youtube]

Does he hold the ball too long also ?

Click to expand...

I could post a video of Jeff George's pro highlights that make him look like the 2nd coming of Joe Montana.

That doesn't prove anything. It is a valid criticism of Russell, whether you like it or not...........and btw, I'm not saying I don't like it.

My point is people blaming Pete or Bevell for how Russell plays QB is insane to me. It's his style, you can't turn Russell into a progression pocket QB, you just can't.

Ask Holmgren, he spend a LONG time trying to change Brett Favre.............and it won't work here either. You play to a QB's strength. Which for Russell is running the ball to keep the defense up close, then you burn them with play action and read option.

Click to expand...

Pete coached the DB's in Minny when Fran played, he knows exactly what kind of QB Wilson is and Minny had a explosive offense becasue of Tarkenton, you could not just rush him you had to account for his scrambles which means he holds the ball longer which means the DB's have to cover longer, which means broken plays and down field opportunities. You can set up as a pocket passer but hey if something goes sideways you have a added dimension that you don't try to restrain. Nothing kicks you in the balls harder then doing your job and then some asshole QB scrambles around and your playing hide and seek with receivers till he gets open and gets a large gain and or a Touchdown. Thats the kind of success is what Wilson can have if Pete allows him to.


The issue is becasuse our line, OC, and Offense design all sucked thats all we saw, balance it out with a running threat and a average line at worst and Wilson won't have to scramble and roll out 70 percent of the time.

Pete should understand that, and should take advantage of it like Grant did in Minny, why Petes over control on the offense is perplexing to me. He has seen it work and work well.

Sgt. Largent":354yv9ff said:

wth would that do? Amazing how good Russell was when we had Marshawn and a good O-line.

Click to expand...

Wilson's numbers in the second half of 2015 blows the hell out of that theory...Marshawn didn't play a single damned game in that stretch.
"Amazing" how good Russell did WITHOUT Beastmode eh?
Wilson & Baldwin have pulled a lot of fat out of the fire WITHOUT A LOT OF HELP from Bevell, Cable or Pete.
Funny how someone like Brady recognizes how "ELITE" a player Wilson has been, hell, even a scrub O-LINE was made to look better than they actually were.
Pete hammers on "Protecting The Ball", and yet when the game seems completely out of whack, Wilson is given free rein to try and salvage it, and has often cleaned up piss poor performances by his Coaches ZERO help from his stable of RB's & crappy play by his O-Line.
His 85 % production SCREAMS of his value to the Seahawks Offense.....9 wins with a shitty kicking, AND NO RUN game.
Good Lord.

Sgt. Largent":2864c02j said:

adeltaY":2864c02j said:

Pete and/or Bev, whatever combo, do not have close to the level of creativity of designing an offense as Reid or Peterson. Throw Cable in there too because his blocking schemes weren't that varied. The way Pederson used different blocking schemes in the run game was fascinating. There was a play in the SB where half their line pass blocked and half run blocked and the DL was stumped, resulting in a huge hole for Ajayi. When the Eagles played the Broncos they did an amazing job of scheming Von Miller out of plays by leaving him unblocked as a read player and they shredded that defense. Shanahan made mincemeat out of our cover three system twice in 2016. Pederson annihilated the #1 scoring D with Nick Foles at QB.

Those are just a couple examples. How often were we doing that? Funnily enough, our best called and executed game was against the Eagles where Bev focused on getting rid of the ball quickly with rub routes to beat the Eagles' man coverage. Even then, we relied on some Wilson magic to sustain drives. The problem is that those kinds of games were too few and far between. If you can run it down their throats, cool, but if you can't, it's time to get creative and we rarely saw that.

Click to expand...

Yeah but are Solari and Schottenheimer better or worse than Bevell/Cable?

Neither is known for their complex dynamic offensive blocking or schemes. So idk, as much as I'm glad we've turned the page on Bevell and Cable.................I'm not jumping up and down that we now have two other journeymen line coaches and coordinators.

I'm just worried that Pete's doing some sort of last ditch effort to getting back to basics on offense, when the rest of the top teams in the league are sprinting past us with dynamic innovative scheme and playcalling.

Very few places has this sort of mentality worked, where after down year(s) bringing in re-treads was wildly successful.

Click to expand...

Oh man, I am super in agreement with you there. That's why the Schotty hire didn't sound good to me from the start. Solari I was less concerned about - he at least presided over a Niners OL that was very good and I'm not sure who else was available. Guys like DeFilippo and LaFleur were available for OC and we got Schotty instead. I wish him the best of luck and I like his attitude and focus on fundamentals, but the scheme and playcalling conservatism worries me.

My point was that Bev wasn't like those guys either so I was fine with moving on from him. I'm disappointed that Pete doesn't seem to want to embrace the new direction successful offenses are taken, but it shouldn't have surprised me.

adeltaY":1lsvltff said:

Sgt. Largent":1lsvltff said:

adeltaY":1lsvltff said:

Pete and/or Bev, whatever combo, do not have close to the level of creativity of designing an offense as Reid or Peterson. Throw Cable in there too because his blocking schemes weren't that varied. The way Pederson used different blocking schemes in the run game was fascinating. There was a play in the SB where half their line pass blocked and half run blocked and the DL was stumped, resulting in a huge hole for Ajayi. When the Eagles played the Broncos they did an amazing job of scheming Von Miller out of plays by leaving him unblocked as a read player and they shredded that defense. Shanahan made mincemeat out of our cover three system twice in 2016. Pederson annihilated the #1 scoring D with Nick Foles at QB.

Those are just a couple examples. How often were we doing that? Funnily enough, our best called and executed game was against the Eagles where Bev focused on getting rid of the ball quickly with rub routes to beat the Eagles' man coverage. Even then, we relied on some Wilson magic to sustain drives. The problem is that those kinds of games were too few and far between. If you can run it down their throats, cool, but if you can't, it's time to get creative and we rarely saw that.

Click to expand...

Yeah but are Solari and Schottenheimer better or worse than Bevell/Cable?

Neither is known for their complex dynamic offensive blocking or schemes. So idk, as much as I'm glad we've turned the page on Bevell and Cable.................I'm not jumping up and down that we now have two other journeymen line coaches and coordinators.

I'm just worried that Pete's doing some sort of last ditch effort to getting back to basics on offense, when the rest of the top teams in the league are sprinting past us with dynamic innovative scheme and playcalling.

Very few places has this sort of mentality worked, where after down year(s) bringing in re-treads was wildly successful.

Click to expand...

Oh man, I am super in agreement with you there. That's why the Schotty hire didn't sound good to me from the start. Solari I was less concerned about - he at least presided over a Niners OL that was very good and I'm not sure who else was available. Guys like DeFilippo and LaFleur were available for OC and we got Schotty instead. I wish him the best of luck and I like his attitude and focus on fundamentals, but the scheme and playcalling conservatism worries me.

My point was that Bev wasn't like those guys either so I was fine with moving on from him. I'm disappointed that Pete doesn't seem to want to embrace the new direction successful offenses are taken, but it shouldn't have surprised me.

Click to expand...

You copy what everyone else is doing you get what everyone else has, no Super Bowl, It people that make other teams think and have to adapt that win. people that are runners up are the ones that try to copy what the successful teams do.

Some of these posts got me like:


The only real problem you can levy at Wilson from the pocket is his lack of ability to step up in the pocket. That will never change, he is 5'10'', and like Brees the interior line has to hold their ground and give their diminutive signal caller the space to throw, or he has to escape. That is his only option at 5'10''. If I were running the team this would've already been addressed many seasons ago. By drafting guys like Joel Bitonio, Gabe Jackson, and in this yrs draft I wanted Will Hernandez. I keep wishing for the Hawks to draft some interior studs, but they keep ignoring it. RW's minor handicap is easily made up for with his ability to escape, and actually won't come up very often if the interior line doesn't get pushed back into his lap, or they whiff, placing defenders right in his face.

Wilson is fine from the pocket, and has proved it many times. 2015 proved my theory already on what the problem was. The gameplanning. The Seahawks had pretty much the same gameplan every week since Russ was a rookie. Then the team started slow in 2015, Lynch was hurt, they had just paid Russ a big contract extension, his numbers weren't that great, they were 2-4.

Pete probably wanting to see if Wilson could really carry it on his own, and having an even worse O-Line. (It got worse every year under Cable.) finally switched things up. They went with a West Coast/Spread hybrid attack, and finally gameplanned differently. It caught teams off guard and Russ went on a historical tear, and did most of his damage from the pocket in the final 10 games that had never been seen before in league history.

The problem was teams eventually adjusted to what Seattle was doing, and Pete went back to what he knew. Run the ball, play conservative, chuck it deep. Here we are 3 yrs later hoping things have finally changed.

Look at RW's #s against AFC opponents vs NFC opponents. (Familiarity extremes.)

The AFC doesn't know the Hawks that well let us look at RW's numbers.

CAREER AGAINST AFC --> 110.5 Passer rating w/ a 9.32 AYPA. Sacked every 12.77 pass attempts
CAREER AGAINST NFC --> 94.7 w/ a 7.64 AYPA. Sacked every 11.02 pass attempts.

The more the same team sees Pete's offense = It becomes much easier to prepare for, thus play against due to how simple their scheme is. I always look forward to AFC opponents because of this. The Rams weren't that much better than the Hawks player wise, coaching wise they were light years ahead, that is why Pete fired his staff, he was getting out schemed every week. Schotty is being brought in to refresh the O, and help Pete get the running game going, his primary concern. Pete knows if he can run the ball, Russ can take care of the passing game = Offense fixed.

My final point is this. Look up Russell's historic numbers in the 4th qtr last season. If he wasn't that good in the pocket he wouldn't be able to put those crazy numbers up behind a wretched O-Line & no run game w/teams specifically gameplanning to stop RW every week.

The difference between Russ in the 4th qtr last yr vs. 1st-3rd qtr. was the --> Game Plan <-- They would chuck it in the trashcan, abandon it, and finally play to Russ' strengths by letting Russ off the leash. The sacks were significantly down in the 4th qtr. as well. Literally every thing points to terrible gameplanning.

RW's 4th Qtr #s in 2017

67.63% -- 18 TDs -- 1 INT -- 134.1 Passer Rating -- 9.4 YPA -- Sacked???..... 3 Times. That is it... just 3 times.

Does this describe a player that isn't very good from the pocket to any of you? Running into sacks? Can't see?

Wrong on all accounts, or he would've been sacked many more times in the 4th, and his numbers would be way WAY worse. Those numbers are freaking ridiculous, but he can't see, and is not good from the pocket? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

1st-3rd qtr he was sacked 39 times. Just look at that disparity and think long and hard about what changed in the 4th qtr.

Just for the hell of it for some context.


Brady's 4th Qtr #s in 2017

63.20% -- 6 TDs -- 1 INT -- 97.6 Passer Rating -- 7.2 YPA -- Sacked 9 times.


Cousin's 4th Qtr #s in 2017

65.03% -- 8 TDs -- 5 INT -- 91.0 Passer Rating -- 7.4 YPA -- Sacked 14 times.



These are just passing statistics, when you add on rushing it is insane how far ahead RW is. He is a monster.
Anyone want to trade RW for these guys?

Russell's pocket ability isn't the problem. Bad gameplanning/philosophy is the problem. RW has been bailing out their failed staff for years.
2017 4th qtr #s prove it, Thx for the laughs guys.

Pete wants balance of run and pass whenever possible because it is harder on the defense to face a team that can both pass and run effectively. That balance doesn’t necessarily have to be contained within one game either. In 2006, USC beat Nebraska by running up and down the field. A week later they dominated Wazzu with the passing game. They could do both. Balance.

“You can’t win it in the first quarter...” doesn’t mean don’t score then. Pete has repeatedly said that. It means a team needs to be good at finishing and never give up. It’s about competing for the entire game. Every coach in football preaches finishing. This is simply Pete’s way of doing so.

chris98251":2en8vreu said:

adeltaY":2en8vreu said:

Sgt. Largent":2en8vreu said:

adeltaY":2en8vreu said:

Pete and/or Bev, whatever combo, do not have close to the level of creativity of designing an offense as Reid or Peterson. Throw Cable in there too because his blocking schemes weren't that varied. The way Pederson used different blocking schemes in the run game was fascinating. There was a play in the SB where half their line pass blocked and half run blocked and the DL was stumped, resulting in a huge hole for Ajayi. When the Eagles played the Broncos they did an amazing job of scheming Von Miller out of plays by leaving him unblocked as a read player and they shredded that defense. Shanahan made mincemeat out of our cover three system twice in 2016. Pederson annihilated the #1 scoring D with Nick Foles at QB.

Those are just a couple examples. How often were we doing that? Funnily enough, our best called and executed game was against the Eagles where Bev focused on getting rid of the ball quickly with rub routes to beat the Eagles' man coverage. Even then, we relied on some Wilson magic to sustain drives. The problem is that those kinds of games were too few and far between. If you can run it down their throats, cool, but if you can't, it's time to get creative and we rarely saw that.

Click to expand...

Yeah but are Solari and Schottenheimer better or worse than Bevell/Cable?

Neither is known for their complex dynamic offensive blocking or schemes. So idk, as much as I'm glad we've turned the page on Bevell and Cable.................I'm not jumping up and down that we now have two other journeymen line coaches and coordinators.

I'm just worried that Pete's doing some sort of last ditch effort to getting back to basics on offense, when the rest of the top teams in the league are sprinting past us with dynamic innovative scheme and playcalling.

Very few places has this sort of mentality worked, where after down year(s) bringing in re-treads was wildly successful.

Click to expand...

Oh man, I am super in agreement with you there. That's why the Schotty hire didn't sound good to me from the start. Solari I was less concerned about - he at least presided over a Niners OL that was very good and I'm not sure who else was available. Guys like DeFilippo and LaFleur were available for OC and we got Schotty instead. I wish him the best of luck and I like his attitude and focus on fundamentals, but the scheme and playcalling conservatism worries me.

My point was that Bev wasn't like those guys either so I was fine with moving on from him. I'm disappointed that Pete doesn't seem to want to embrace the new direction successful offenses are taken, but it shouldn't have surprised me.

Click to expand...

You copy what everyone else is doing you get what everyone else has, no Super Bowl, It people that make other teams think and have to adapt that win. people that are runners up are the ones that try to copy what the successful teams do.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying copy them. They are moving forward and I want us to as well. Evolution is necessary, especially when you no longer have the personnel to play like you used to. We don't have Money and a historic defense so the feasibility of playing like the 2012-2014 Hawks is low. When you have less talent, you win with scheme.

Hawk1217":33u0e9xk said:

Okay so I want to understand this, the HC who controls everything, and the OC who calls and designs everything, have no blame for the maturation of a QB they have had since he was a Rookie. Just checking because that is what you are saying. Hmmm Yeah sorry, that does not pass any test at all. FYI Wilson was a pocket passer during most of 2015 where he was great. Also once again he has one of the best QB ratings, complt% in the pocket. However, you can't expect him to stay in the pocket when he has one of the worse Oline in the league and a lot of long slow developing plays. Both are things the OC and HC do have a lot of control over. FYI playing to Wilson strengths is getting him to the line with a lot of time so he can make adjustments, you know 2015 remember that. What happened as soon as Lynch came back, they went right back to the same old thing that did not work. Wilson does not call the plays, create the plays, or provide the players for the plays that is the HC and OC and as such, they deserve and rightfully so blame.

Click to expand...

I didn't say NO blame, I said to think Russell's issues are because of Pete or the combo of Pete and Bevell is false.

The past two years by default because of how terrible the line is and our running game Russell HAS thrown the ball all over the place, and that's resulted in missing the playoffs.

It's just not a good consistent way for this offense to operate, depending on Russell for 90% of the production. You can be any sort of offense you want in the NFL, but you can't be predictable.

btw, I'm not even sure what we're arguing about. We have a top 5 QB, a QB that 28 teams would kill for.........so to nitpick on Pete for hampering Russell's growth in some way because of how he runs the offense is about item #38 on my list of worries for the 2018 season.