McGruff":250yixxx said:
I think Spin Doctor is right on two things and wrong on the rest.
First, Russell does hold the ball longer than average, even without pressure. This is a function of two things. The first is scheme and the second is trust. We simply don't run a lot of outlet routes, quick hitches or slants. We run longer downfield and crossing route that take longer to develop. That's not his fault. But I do think his cautiousness sometimes causes him to doubt his own ability to hit tight windows and his receivers ability to go after the ball. He's got to develop this trust and learn to take the risk.
Second, his scrambling does make it difficult for his line to keep track of him. Just look at some of those scrambles posted above and watvch what the linemen have to go through, sometimes for 10-15 seconds. And they have to think about the LOS and not get too far beyond and get the penalty. Its pretty insane and the linemen themselves have admitted as much. They've had to adjust their mentality from blocking a spot and a count to staying with a man.
But I notice that people tend to use this word, "Symbiotic," and make it mean what it does not. We tend to use it about a partnership, but then use it to make a case why it is one side's fault and not the other's. Lynch and Wilson have a symbiotic effect on each other, therefore Wilson's success is all because of Lynch (or vice versa). The OL and QB have a symbiotic effect, therefore the stuggles in pass pro are all Wilson's fault and not the OL (or vice versa). That is not what symbiosis means. It means they effect each other, benefit each other, and are tied so closely to each other that sometimes its hard to tell how the effect works. Does Wilson get pressured more because he holds the ball too long, or is he holding the ball longer because he's scrambling from immediate pressure while looking downfield?
I will say this, so far the case Spin Doctor has made makes me wonder how Wilson has even survived in this league at all, much less broken every record possible for a 3rd year QB while leading us to three NFC championship games, 2 Superbowls and one World Championship. To hear him describe Wilson you'd think he was more like Curtis Painter than Joe Montana. So far we have the following criticisms:
1. He's inconsistent
2. He can't throw on the run
3. He's hesitant
4. He's inaccurate
5. He can't throw short passes
6. He doesn't see the field
7. He can't manage a pocket
8. He can't make pre-snap reads
9. He holds the ball too long
10. He plays reckless
11. He only throws one route
Seriously, if that was scouting report, this player wouldn't be employable on any level of football, and yet these are the things being said about Wilson in this thread alone. Some are valid. Some are distortions. Some are outright false. Many, however, can be attributed to the truly symbiotic relationship between coach, QB, line and receivers, and any reasonable fan would admit that our coaching is at least occasionally suspect, our line sucks at pass protection (they are built that way somewhat intentionally), and our receivers range from #3 types to fringe roster players. Sure, Wilson sometimes plays like a young QB, but let's not put any of this in a vacuum. Aside from Lynch, Wilson is playing with a short deck here.
First, Russell does hold the ball longer than average, even without pressure. This is a function of two things. The first is scheme and the second is trust. We simply don't run a lot of outlet routes, quick hitches or slants. We run longer downfield and crossing route that take longer to develop. That's not his fault. But I do think his cautiousness sometimes causes him to doubt his own ability to hit tight windows and his receivers ability to go after the ball. He's got to develop this trust and learn to take the risk.
Second, his scrambling does make it difficult for his line to keep track of him. Just look at some of those scrambles posted above and watvch what the linemen have to go through, sometimes for 10-15 seconds. And they have to think about the LOS and not get too far beyond and get the penalty. Its pretty insane and the linemen themselves have admitted as much. They've had to adjust their mentality from blocking a spot and a count to staying with a man.
But I notice that people tend to use this word, "Symbiotic," and make it mean what it does not. We tend to use it about a partnership, but then use it to make a case why it is one side's fault and not the other's. Lynch and Wilson have a symbiotic effect on each other, therefore Wilson's success is all because of Lynch (or vice versa). The OL and QB have a symbiotic effect, therefore the stuggles in pass pro are all Wilson's fault and not the OL (or vice versa). That is not what symbiosis means. It means they effect each other, benefit each other, and are tied so closely to each other that sometimes its hard to tell how the effect works. Does Wilson get pressured more because he holds the ball too long, or is he holding the ball longer because he's scrambling from immediate pressure while looking downfield?
I will say this, so far the case Spin Doctor has made makes me wonder how Wilson has even survived in this league at all, much less broken every record possible for a 3rd year QB while leading us to three NFC championship games, 2 Superbowls and one World Championship. To hear him describe Wilson you'd think he was more like Curtis Painter than Joe Montana. So far we have the following criticisms:
1. He's inconsistent
2. He can't throw on the run
3. He's hesitant
4. He's inaccurate
5. He can't throw short passes
6. He doesn't see the field
7. He can't manage a pocket
8. He can't make pre-snap reads
9. He holds the ball too long
10. He plays reckless
11. He only throws one route
Seriously, if that was scouting report, this player wouldn't be employable on any level of football, and yet these are the things being said about Wilson in this thread alone. Some are valid. Some are distortions. Some are outright false. Many, however, can be attributed to the truly symbiotic relationship between coach, QB, line and receivers, and any reasonable fan would admit that our coaching is at least occasionally suspect, our line sucks at pass protection (they are built that way somewhat intentionally), and our receivers range from #3 types to fringe roster players. Sure, Wilson sometimes plays like a young QB, but let's not put any of this in a vacuum. Aside from Lynch, Wilson is playing with a short deck here.[/quote]
First off, I would like to mention that winning a superbowl is a team effort. Wilson is not the only reason why we are there, when people talk about his merits this inevitably comes up. Did he help? Absolutely, but he let us not forget that he was also on a great team.
Secondly I'm looking at the future. Usually when Quarterbacks get paid there is an equilibrium that occurs. Teams usually put more assets into protecting their investment, it's just the smart thing to do. This means more draft, and monetary capital is allocated to the offense. Will that destroy our defense? No, but we will no longer be able to field defenses of the same caliber. This means that more weight will naturally be shifted on Wilson's shoulders. My question is: How would Wilson respond to an increased workload? This is an important question to ask when you're paying your QB.
I ask this question because of David Garrard. Obviously Wilson is a better player, he's more dynamic, and he has better fundamentals, but I still see major holes in his game which will limit his ability as a volume passer if he needs to become one. I should also mention that Wilson is more clutch than Mr. Almost interception Garrard and did not contribute as much to the run game.
I'm specifically going to mention one season Garrard had, which was 2007. In that season he had a similar role to Russell Wilson. He played in a run dominated, play action offense. He was among the bottom of the league in attempts as well, but he put together a solid stat line, and the Jaguars coincidentally made it to the divisional round. They were beat by the 2007, 16-0 Patriots. David Garrard was praised by the Jaguar fans, and was given a large contract extension. When his team asked him to carry a larger burden on offense he regressed to a middle of the road Quarterback. He went from throwing 18 touchdowns and 3 interceptions, and almost an 8 yards average, to having almost as many interceptions as he did touchdowns. He did not take well to an increased workload, and part of me thinks Wilson will be the same way.
The truth is, Wilson plays quarterback in an unconventional way. He is a unique case that we cannot peg to very many examples in the NFL. This is, and should be a cause for concern with the FO before they give him a big contract. That is why I would like to see most of his contract incentive laden -- especially since he has not been asked to do very much from a passing standpoint on the Seahawks. He does very many things extremely well, but at the same time he lacks in very many fundamental areas. This is what makes evaluating the guy hard.
As for your list, I did not say half of those things, either that or you are misunderstanding what I said:
1. He's inconsistent. Yes he is inconsistent throughout the game. In the first half he is almost non-existent. It seems like he is only productive for about 1-2 quarters a game.
2. He can't throw on the run: I never said that, Wilson can throw on the run and he is among the best in the league at doing so, statistics even back that up.
3. He's hesitant: Yes, he is hesitant. He doesn't usually pull the trigger unless his receiver has a good two steps on the defender. This is one of my biggest concerns in the passing game. Receivers, most of the time only have a small window of time that they are open. He misses a lot of opportunities because he doesn't pull the trigger.
4. He's innacurate: I never said he's inaccurate, it's just that he lacks consistency here. I liken it to Donavon McNabb, he could either make a throw that 99% of the QB's in the NFL couldn't, or his throws would be WAY off. Wilson does tend to overthrow his receivers, especially during the beginning of the game, or after he does a lot of scramble drills. He has one of the most accurate deep balls in the league, but he does struggle on shorter passes, especially with ball placement.
5. He can't throw short passes: He can throw them, he just isn't that good at it. His repertoire is limited here. He knows how to work very few routes here. I especially noticed that he struggles with slant routes.
6. He doesn't see the field: It's hard to say, this could be related to his hesitation. I do feel that if you knock him out of his comfort zone, that his field vision really seems to suffer. He also refuses to utilize the middle of the field, or he just has a hard time seeing it, I don't know which it is.
7. He can't manage the pocket: Yes, I agree with this statement. He doesn't know how to manage the pocket. Throughout the season many people, not just myself have lamented this fact. He bails out far too soon, and when you bail out of the pocket, you're effectively cutting the field in half. This also greatly affects his field vision. He needs to learn how to step up in the pocket
8. He can't make presnap reads: Yes, this seems to be an ability where he is lacking.
9. He holds the ball for too long: Yep, he holds the ball longer than any QB in the NFL
10. He plays reckless: Yes, I believe his scrambling will get him injured one day if he doesn't alter his play style. Even though he is smart about sliding, he still takes more hits than almost anybody in the NFL. Passing wise on the other hand he is very conservative on which throws he makes, and doesn't make.
11. He only throws one route: Never said this. If this was the case he wouldn't be a good QB in the NFL. He does struggle on certain routes though, especially if they involve fine tuned-timing. He's very good at hook routes, Fades, Go routes, and post routes. Though many of the guys who watch film say our route trees are simplistic compared to most NFL teams in the league.
