Who has the better WR corps?

[themunn]

Personally, I think that with Harvin and Rice fit, we would take it, but without them, Denver takes it.
Seattle's big problem is Zach Miller - not how bad he is, but rather, how important he is for blocking, because our line is still so inexperienced.

Rice also offers so much more than his stats belie, he can catch just about anything thrown near him, and to places where DBs simply can't reach. His stats were poor poor poor this season, and he did have 1 or 2 big drops that I can remember, but aside from the game at Carolina, his entire season falls into that window where Okung and Breno were out and Unger missed a few games, with Wilson completing few deep passes to anyone.

To be brutally honest i think you are flat out wrong.

I think you misunderstood, I don't mean takes the game, I mean takes the "who has the better WR corps" award.

 

[DtownNative]

Comparing Denver's WR's to Seattle's WR's is like comparing Denver's Defense to Seattle's Defense...

There should be no debate as to which is better.

 

[SalishHawkFan]

So DThomas is a better WR than Baldwin because he's faster? And that speed has more impact on the defenses? Or is it he runs better routes? Makes smoother cuts? Tap dances on the sidelines better?

What tangible skill is it DThomas has - outside of raw stats from constantly being passed to by Peyton - does DThomas have that Baldwin doesn't?

Baldwin runs precision routes. He's got an incredibly smooth cut. But he's only got 4.47 40 speed.
DThomas has 4.38 40 speed. That's faster.

Boy, being fast must mean EVERYTHING in what makes a better WR right? Because he doesn't cut better. He doesn't run better routes. He doesn't catch those sideline passes on his tippy toes better.

According to an article I read the other day, DThomas doesn't fight for the ball. Big physical defenders give him trouble. Baldwin fights for the ball.

So what does DThomas actually DO that makes him better?

He RUNS faster.

Okay then, Baldwin, therefore, is a much better receiver than a guy who runs a 4.6 40. Right? The guy who runs the 4.6 40 runs great routes. Can cut well. Can get past press man to get free. Fights for the ball. Does everything Doug Baldwin can do, but is a LOT slower. Way more so than DB is slower than DT.

btw, Doug Baldwin had more receptions this year than the 4.6 40 guy and DT had WAY more receptions and more yardage too.

So I guess both WR's are much better than Steve Largent's.

Flashy and sexy stats don't make the better receiver.

And don't say the game is SO much faster now. Sherman is no where near as fast as Darrell Green was. Nobody has yet to be as fast as Darrell Green was. There have always been plenty of fast corners. Speed isn't everything.

So what does DThomas DO that's better than DB other than run faster?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

So DThomas is a better WR than Baldwin because he's faster? And that speed has more impact on the defenses? Or is it he runs better routes? Makes smoother cuts? Tap dances on the sidelines better?

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats. What else is there? Smarter? Alright, I'll give Doug that one.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

The only meaning to be gleaned from our WRs' apparently superficial stats is that they've done very well for their size and their non-passing-oriented scheme. Beyond that, it's apples-and-oranges.

 

[RolandDeschain]

The only meaning to be gleaned from our WRs' apparently superficial stats is that they've done very well for their size and their non-passing-oriented scheme. Beyond that, it's apples-and-oranges.

Pretty much nailed it. I think if we passed a lot regularly, they'd improve with the extra practice and reps, too. Just a guess, though.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Broncos fans, this is a good read for you: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... receivers/

(Seahawks fans, too.)

 

[SalishHawkFan]

So DThomas is a better WR than Baldwin because he's faster? And that speed has more impact on the defenses? Or is it he runs better routes? Makes smoother cuts? Tap dances on the sidelines better?

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats. What else is there? Smarter? Alright, I'll give Doug that one.

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats than Steve Largent. I'd take Largent. What does he DO that's better?

 

[Scottemojo]

So DThomas is a better WR than Baldwin because he's faster? And that speed has more impact on the defenses? Or is it he runs better routes? Makes smoother cuts? Tap dances on the sidelines better?

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats. What else is there? Smarter? Alright, I'll give Doug that one.

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats than Steve Largent. I'd take Largent. What does he DO that's better?

Largent is kind of old, don't you think?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

So DThomas is a better WR than Baldwin because he's faster? And that speed has more impact on the defenses? Or is it he runs better routes? Makes smoother cuts? Tap dances on the sidelines better?

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats. What else is there? Smarter? Alright, I'll give Doug that one.

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats than Steve Largent. I'd take Largent. What does he DO that's better?

1. He gains better separation
2. He used his height to go up and get balls over DB's
3. He uses his big body to outfight DB's for balls
4. He uses his 4.3 speed to outrun DB's before AND after the catch

I appreciate you being argumentative and taking Doug's side, I really do cause I love Doug as well. But like I said put Baldwin and Thomas in front of all 32 GM's and Coaches and tell them to choose one.........and EVERY pair would choose Thomas, including our own.

Thomas is a 1st round 2 X all pro with 3,600 yards, 50 TD's and 240 receptions.......he is what every team wants, a prototypical big body wideout with speed and great hands. Doug Baldwin is an undersized undrafted #4 receiver at best with average speed and average quickness.......who has to use every single bit of his tenacity just to get open.

Enough for you? Or do you still want to continue this delusional argument. Other than smarts, Baldwin is a lesser receiver in EVERY SINGLE WAY.

 

[SalishHawkFan]

The only meaning to be gleaned from our WRs' apparently superficial stats is that they've done very well for their size and their non-passing-oriented scheme. Beyond that, it's apples-and-oranges.

Yes, when you have two different philosophies, it's apples and oranges. The point being, you can't say that "apples" are better than "oranges" just because apples are in a scheme that throws a lot.

What you CAN say is that they should be more afraid of our WR corps than we should be of theirs, their defensively rotted apples compared to the Legion of Boom.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Why the big cry over Denver's receiving corps?

I think admittedly that DThomas is legit. If you call Seattle's best and Denver's best out and compare I think it's fair to say DT > Tate

I don't honestly think that you can say pound for pound, skill for skill that Decker > Tate or Baldwin - in fact he might be somewhat equal or less than them. His big advantage is height and the type of routes he runs. I think it's very safe to say that Harvin is better than Decker, and in fact may be as impactful as DThomas.

Watch some Harvin highlights on youtube. Im sure you have like any 12, but maybe you should re-watch them. I think its safe to say that Harvin is more dynamic, game changing and impactful than DT. Ill put it this way. On the list of WRs with the most YAC in the last 3 seasons Harvin in 4th with 900-something. welker is first on that list with 1200-1300. Keep in mind that is with Harving missing pretty much the whole 2013-14 season. also keep in mind he missed some of the season before. That means he almost puts down double the YAC any other reciever does, and you add in the fact he was historically good in the return game and the leading KR guy in the 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons. Add that all up and remember Harvin was leading the MVP race in the previous season, he was looking like the favorite to win even over his teammate and eventual winner AP, and would of possibly won if not for his hip injury. I think its safe to say he is more dynamic and impactful than any other player in the NFL let alone DT. Not only because of his skill and speed but because of the fact when playing he is gamechanging not only in the offense as a wide out and a running back but also in special teams. Its too bad a guy of this talent cant stay healthy but thats what you get when you leave it all out on the field like he does, he has so much heart and effort that he is constantly putting his body is danger of being injured.
I think its safe to say that if this guy didnt miss a game in his career he would be regarded as megatron and AP are, the best hands down no debate. But then again if he didnt get injured the vikings would NEVER of given him up. Harvin in my eyes has more sheer physical talent than any other active nfl player. I dont see anyone else in the nfl with the ability to change directions at the speed he does...

I do..his name is Cordarrelle patterson
[youtube]AxbETu6hpLE[/youtube]

 

[Mindsink]

The only thing that matters is that our WRs > your secondary, and our secondary > your WRs.

 

[DrDix]

So DThomas is a better WR than Baldwin because he's faster? And that speed has more impact on the defenses? Or is it he runs better routes? Makes smoother cuts? Tap dances on the sidelines better?

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats. What else is there? Smarter? Alright, I'll give Doug that one.

And yet, Doug makes the plays when it matters. Doug had over 200 total yards against the 49ers in one of the biggest games in Seahawk history. He made the 3rd down catch against the Saints.


Give me a break, who the hell was Demaryius Thomas before Peyton got there. People are blinded by stats and physical attributes. What matters is making the plays when there is no tomorrow. There is none better at that than the Seahawks receivers. No remotely comes close. Look through the last two seasons, and look at all the catches Baldwin has made while keeping his feet inbounds. I've never seen any player do it with such consistency. All the catches Tate and Kearse and Rice have made. They always get it done. Put our WRs in Denver's offense and I guarantee they are even better.

 

[WilsonMVP]

So DThomas is a better WR than Baldwin because he's faster? And that speed has more impact on the defenses? Or is it he runs better routes? Makes smoother cuts? Tap dances on the sidelines better?

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats. What else is there? Smarter? Alright, I'll give Doug that one.

And yet, Doug makes the plays when it matters. Doug had over 200 total yards against the 49ers in one of the biggest games in Seahawk history. He made the 3rd down catch against the Saints.


Give me a break, who the hell was Demaryius Thomas before Peyton got there. People are blinded by stats and physical attributes. What matters is making the plays when there is no tomorrow. There is none better at that than the Seahawks receivers. No remotely comes close. Look through the last two seasons, and look at all the catches Baldwin has made while keeping his feet inbounds. I've never seen any player do it with such consistency. All the catches Tate and Kearse and Rice have made. They always get it done. Put our WRs in Denver's offense and I guarantee they are even better.

I agree. Baldwin is criminally underrated, even on here. If I had to choose between him and tate I would choose Baldwin. I love tate but I think Baldwin has just come up huge time after time after time whenever we need it most.

 

[Omaha]

Neither Matt Stafford nor Matt Ryan are mediocre or average.

OT: Stafford is useless imo.

 

[SalishHawkFan]

So DThomas is a better WR than Baldwin because he's faster? And that speed has more impact on the defenses? Or is it he runs better routes? Makes smoother cuts? Tap dances on the sidelines better?

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats. What else is there? Smarter? Alright, I'll give Doug that one.

He's bigger, faster, stronger and has better stats than Steve Largent. I'd take Largent. What does he DO that's better?

1. He gains better separation

Proof? Just saying it doesn't make it so. Baldwin makes more catches per target than DThomas. That's at least inferential evidence that Baldwin gets better separation. Also, Baldwin gets more yards per catch AND per target. Yet again, proof that Baldwin is getting better separation.

2. He used his height to go up and get balls over DB's Which we've NEVER seen Baldwin do time and again.

3. He uses his big body to outfight DB's for balls FALSE. In fact, there's a good article that came out last week that points out that he is NOT a receiver that fights for the ball.

4. He uses his 4.3 speed to outrun DB's before AND after the catch. ie, he's fast. That's all you got, which is my point. He's perceived as being better solely because he's faster. And much of the above points you made, all incorrect, are built upon that assumption as well.

I appreciate you being argumentative and taking Doug's side, I really do cause I love Doug as well. But like I said put Baldwin and Thomas in front of all 32 GM's and Coaches and tell them to choose one.........and EVERY pair would choose Thomas, including our own.

Thomas is a 1st round 2 X all pro with 3,600 yards, 50 TD's and 240 receptions.......he is what every team wants, a prototypical big body wideout with speed and great hands. Doug Baldwin is an undersized undrafted #4 receiver at best with average speed and average quickness.......who has to use every single bit of his tenacity just to get open.

Enough for you? Or do you still want to continue this delusional argument. Other than smarts, Baldwin is a lesser receiver in EVERY SINGLE WAY.

Because you say so based upon the assumption that because he's fast and big he gets open more often, when in fact, it is Baldwin who gets more catches per target than DThomas. DThomas just happens to play in a pass happy offense. Bates was faster than DThomas is. Speed isn't enough. You have to get OPEN. Baldwin gets open and he does so for more successful plays than DThomas does. I'm NOT degrading DThomas. You can cite all you want to. But NOTHING in your post proves Baldwin "has to use every bit of his tenacity just to get open".

Btw, to the other poster who seems to think I'm saying Tate is better than DThomas. I'm not. DThomas is better than Tate or Kearse. He's not better than Baldwin however. Kearse is better than Decker and Tate is better than Welker. I know, that's not the slot vs the slot, etc. But Baldwin isn't a prototypical slot receiver. I'm taking best vs best and across the board, our WR's beat their WR's.

 

[Omaha]

And yet, Doug makes the plays when it matters. Doug had over 200 total yards against the 49ers in one of the biggest games in Seahawk history. He made the 3rd down catch against the Saints.


Give me a break, who the hell was Demaryius Thomas before Peyton got there. People are blinded by stats and physical attributes. What matters is making the plays when there is no tomorrow. There is none better at that than the Seahawks receivers. No remotely comes close. Look through the last two seasons, and look at all the catches Baldwin has made while keeping his feet inbounds. I've never seen any player do it with such consistency. All the catches Tate and Kearse and Rice have made. They always get it done. Put our WRs in Denver's offense and I guarantee they are even better.

Before Manning, DT was the sophomore that burned the Pittsburgh defense ( #1 passing D, #1 scoring, #1 overall) in the 2011 wild card game for 204 yds and 1 (winning) TD with Tebow throwing to him.

 

[MagicHef]

Eric Decker had 8 TDs in 2011 with Tebow throwing to him. That's more TDs than any Seahawks receiver has had in a season in the past 6 years.

 

[Shock2k]

Folks, take our receiving core, as it stands for the SB WITHOUT Percy. (And take those stats, and give our receivers as many attempts as Manning gives them. Seriously, you would change your mind).


To keep perspective WR1's are the first 32 ranks of receivers in the league (by my opinion) WR2's are the 33 through 64 ranked receivers in the league.

PLAYER	TEAM	REC	TAR	Rec%	Rank
Julius Thomas,TE	DEN	60	84	71%	2nd
Doug Baldwin,WR	SEA	50	72	69%	4th
Golden Tate,WR	SEA	56	89	63%	27th
Eric Decker,WR	DEN	83	132	63%	29th
Demaryius Thomas,WR	DEN	86	137	63%	30th
Zach Miller,TE	SEA	30	51	59%	51st
Jermaine Kearse,WR	SEA	22	38	58%	54th

PLAYER	TEAM	AVGYDS	Rank
Jermaine Kearse,WR	SEA	15.7	14th
Doug Baldwin,WR	SEA	15.6	17th
Demaryius Thomas,WR	DEN	15.3	22nd
Eric Decker,WR	DEN	15.2	24th
Golden Tate,WR	SEA	13.7	43rd
Julius Thomas,TE	DEN	12.5	62nd
Zach Miller,TE	SEA	12.2	65th

PLAYER	TEAM	TD	TD%	Rank
Julius Thomas,TE	DEN	12	14%	2nd
Jermaine Kearse,WR	SEA	4	11%	8th
Zach Miller,TE	SEA	5	10%	10th
Demaryius Thomas,WR	DEN	12	9%	11th
Eric Decker,WR	DEN	10	8%	19th
Doug Baldwin,WR	SEA	5	7%	34th
Golden Tate,WR	SEA	4	4%	48th

PLAYER	TEAM	20+	20+/Rec%	Rank
Doug Baldwin,WR	SEA	14	19%	4th
Eric Decker,WR	DEN	19	14%	19th
Jermaine Kearse,WR	SEA	5	13%	31st
Demaryius Thomas,WR	DEN	18	13%	32nd
Golden Tate,WR	SEA	11	12%	38th
Julius Thomas,TE	DEN	10	12%	41st
Zach Miller,TE	SEA	3	6%	79th

PLAYER	TEAM	YAC	YAC/REC	Rank
Golden Tate,WR	SEA	451	8.05	2nd
Demaryius Thomas,WR	DEN	633	7.36	6th
Julius Thomas,TE	DEN	348	5.80	16th
Doug Baldwin,WR	SEA	248	4.96	36th
Zach Miller,TE	SEA	142	4.73	44th
Eric Decker,WR	DEN	345	4.16	60th
Jermaine Kearse,WR	SEA	56	2.55	79th

PLAYER	TEAM	1DN	1DN/TAR%	Rank
Doug Baldwin,WR	SEA	36	50%	2nd
Eric Decker,WR	DEN	60	45%	12th
Demaryius Thomas,WR	DEN	62	45%	13th
Julius Thomas,TE	DEN	38	45%	14th
Jermaine Kearse,WR	SEA	16	42%	31st
Golden Tate,WR	SEA	35	39%	48th
Zach Miller,TE	SEA	18	35%	63rd

Doug Baldwin ranks #2 in almost every category. And Tate is the #2 YAC receiver in the league.