Where are the pass rushers?

[hawkfan68]

I was not impressed with Jefferson or Woods. I think they both are easily replaceable. People are high on Jefferson but his stats are relatively the same as they always have been, quite meh.

 

[Vaclav44]

Or Plan D in that they were too dumb to either sign Clowney early or cut bait and are left with scraps and we end up with another worthless Ziggy clone or two meaning A player that used to be good but now sucks.

I don't think that your 'D' is fair at all. These guys have proven not to be dumb. Dumb would be to overpay and they simply don't do that. Dumb would be to pay far over market for a player. They don't do that. Look at the record and how they build a TEAM every year, year after year, despite the gnashing of teeth to the contrary. They don't blow up the payroll with big signings and hamstring themselves unnecessarily like so many other teams do. They only big contracts they have are Russ and Bobby. Russ is understandable and Bobby earned his. This is a well-built TEAM that is based on patience and reading the market. Clowney is about waiting out the market, nothing more, and not overpaying for a player. They may ultimately lose that bargain, but it'll be about making the right choices for the right reasons, and winning the offseason sweepstakes is not their goal. Their goal is to build a TEAM.

 

[jammerhawk]

Vaclav the plan seems to be Clowney at our price or bust. Please don't think i'm being critical of your post as I mostly agree with it. Meanwhile any other alternative remains largely ignored. Seattle traded a 3rd for Clowney, while that in itself isn't much, most of us thought it was such a good deal and JS was a wizard. However, if Clowney isn't re-signed combined with the 2nd traded away for Richardson which was for another 1 year wonder a good bit of young and inexpensive potentially high quality talent is just lost. That cumulative loss is what we are seeing now on the DLine. When added to the disaster that was McDowell some scrutiny of their plan needs to happen. If they are planning as a fall back if no Clowney on trading away a 1st plus a 2nd to get Ngakouie then the team runs a high risk of losing a 1st, 3-2nds, and a 3rd round pick for 1 year deals that strip the team of quality young players on inexpensive rookie contracts, should Ngakoue not re-sign. If that appears to you to be wrong I'd be in agreement I remain concerned that the plan doesn't presently seem at all apparent except Clowney at our price or bust.

There is to me little doubt the team won't pay Clowney $20 mil or I suspect close to that either. At present the team holds a slight advantage as Clowney can't travel for medical assessments so his market is depressed. If the advantage is removed or worked around Clowney may sign elsewhere and then there is a cupboard of other proven edge rushers that has emptied out. The chief offseason focus for solution namely fixing the pass rush isn't solved and the team potentially faces another season weaker than the last. Is there a plan B, or C, or is D the unfortunate potential reality? The team had the lowest pass rush sack success of any team against the pass last season so perhaps it's hard to get worse but without something being done things will likely be worse.

Of course perhaps there is a plan we don't know about, or a trade that is quietly being kept silent which will make Jn'P look like wizards again, but you can only go to that well so many times. There is little doubt they are good at building teams that can compete. I am just confused by the lack of attention to this primary area of team need. I also can't yet see where the cap space to sign Clowney will come from either. I just don't believe the draft is going to bring the answers for the pass rush this draft. Where's the pass rush going to come from?

If this appears just me being critical I'm certainly not alone. Perhaps this is a polaroid picture that is slowly developing and I just need to be patient to see it, but as lifelong fan I am allowed to be concerned. I truly hope I'm wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Fade]

JSPC are letting the market come to them, rather than over pay. If they come away empty handed in Free Agency I fully expect they will swing a trade or 2, to get the pass rushers they need. No need to fret right now. They are doing a great job of shoring up the other areas of need at great prices.

The
Cap is still looking great once they shed Britt and Dickson in particular.

 

[Rat]

People keep mentioning Green. I just don’t see it with him, like no reason for optimism at all other than him being young. He occasionally gets in on a big play and then I remember again that he’s even on the team, but he looks pretty easily manhandled when I’m watching him.

 

[Jville]

Regarding Rasheem Green ..............

This season (2019), Green has played in every game, starting six of them, and in addition to his team-leading sack total, two of which have come in the past four games, he also has 20 tackles, three forced fumbles, a fumble recovery he returned 36 yards to set up an eventual score, and a blocked field goal on special teams.

"He's doing great," Carroll said. "I'm just happy that he's been such a factor now. He's really playing consistently at run and pass, which is great. Forcing fumbles and being active in the backfield rushing the passer. He's playing multiple spots. He's grown into it. He's a big part of what we're doing ....

"He's playing great ball," Jefferson said. "You can tell he's more confident in his game. His urgency on the field, he's playing great ball. You can see his knowledge has broadened, he's starting to recognize stuff and putting himself into position to make play, so it's pretty dope… The biggest thing in this league is just getting playing time, so this year he's getting more playing time, he's healthy, he's getting more reps, and you can see him getting better and better each week."

Link >>> [urltargetblank]https://www.seahawks.com/news/seahawks-have-seen-huge-growth-from-defensive-linemen-rasheem-green-poona-ford[/urltargetblank]

 

[jammerhawk]

I have thought for a while that once Rasheem Green gets stronger he will be a force as an outside in DE. He flashes at present but is very young and starting to get it. I have high hopes for him going forward.

 

[KiwiHawk]

Keep in mind that we know more about Clowney's health than any other team, so if we're not trotting out loads of cash for him, there could be a solid reason why.

Another factor is that with Griffen on the market you have two free agents of similar talent at the same position, and when one signs, the value will be set for the other one. Sometimes that creates a stare-down and it comes down to which one blinks first.

 

[Rat]

Regarding Rasheem Green ..............

This season (2019), Green has played in every game, starting six of them, and in addition to his team-leading sack total, two of which have come in the past four games, he also has 20 tackles, three forced fumbles, a fumble recovery he returned 36 yards to set up an eventual score, and a blocked field goal on special teams.

"He's doing great," Carroll said. "I'm just happy that he's been such a factor now. He's really playing consistently at run and pass, which is great. Forcing fumbles and being active in the backfield rushing the passer. He's playing multiple spots. He's grown into it. He's a big part of what we're doing ....

"He's playing great ball," Jefferson said. "You can tell he's more confident in his game. His urgency on the field, he's playing great ball. You can see his knowledge has broadened, he's starting to recognize stuff and putting himself into position to make play, so it's pretty dope… The biggest thing in this league is just getting playing time, so this year he's getting more playing time, he's healthy, he's getting more reps, and you can see him getting better and better each week."

Link >>> [urltargetblank]https://www.seahawks.com/news/seahawks-have-seen-huge-growth-from-defensive-linemen-rasheem-green-poona-ford[/urltargetblank]

Eh, better than him not saying good things, but that sounds like typical coachspeak to me. Pete raves like that all the time.

Green isn’t passing the eye test for me, and I think people on here way overrate how much he “improved” last year, but then again, I’m not a scout and it wouldn’t be the first time I was wrong about someone. I was a pretty outspoken critic of the Lockett extension, and that’s one of the best contracts in the league now.

 

[Rat]

Another factor is that with Griffen on the market you have two free agents of similar talent at the same position, and when one signs, the value will be set for the other one. Sometimes that creates a stare-down and it comes down to which one blinks first.

Don’t really agree with that. People still think Clowney can get better; with Griffen, you’re hoping he doesn’t drop off too much. There shouldn’t be question of who is more “talented”.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Another factor is that with Griffen on the market you have two free agents of similar talent at the same position, and when one signs, the value will be set for the other one. Sometimes that creates a stare-down and it comes down to which one blinks first.

Don’t really agree with that. People still think Clowney can get better; with Griffen, you’re hoping he doesn’t drop off too much. There shouldn’t be question of who is more “talented”.

If "better" means stay healthy for 16 games, then I agree about Clowney.

Not sure why it's so hard for him to understand why teams aren't willing to just fork over 60-70M guaranteed at 20M+, when he's only had one year without missing games, and now three major injuries.............AND the inability for teams to bring in him for physicals.

But on his side, I can also understand why he's not exactly excited to accept a lowball offer from the Hawks if the reports are true that we're only offering him around 13-15M for a couple years.

Never the less, this is the point in free agency where new teams aren't all of a sudden going to jump into the mix and pay him more. Caps are set, most first wave FA's are signed, it is what it is for him. Not sure what waiting is accomplishing.

 

[Vaclav44]

Vaclav the plan seems to be Clowney at our price or bust. Please don't think i'm being critical of your post as I mostly agree with it. Meanwhile any other alternative remains largely ignored. Seattle traded a 3rd for Clowney, while that in itself isn't much, most of us thought it was such a good deal and JS was a wizard. However, if Clowney isn't re-signed combined with the 2nd traded away for Richardson which was for another 1 year wonder a good bit of young and inexpensive potentially high quality talent is just lost. That cumulative loss is what we are seeing now on the DLine. When added to the disaster that was McDowell some scrutiny of their plan needs to happen. If they are planning as a fall back if no Clowney on trading away a 1st plus a 2nd to get Ngakouie then the team runs a high risk of losing a 1st, 3-2nds, and a 3rd round pick for 1 year deals that strip the team of quality young players on inexpensive rookie contracts, should Ngakoue not re-sign. If that appears to you to be wrong I'd be in agreement I remain concerned that the plan doesn't presently seem at all apparent except Clowney at our price or bust.

There is to me little doubt the team won't pay Clowney $20 mil or I suspect close to that either. At present the team holds a slight advantage as Clowney can't travel for medical assessments so his market is depressed. If the advantage is removed or worked around Clowney may sign elsewhere and then there is a cupboard of other proven edge rushers that has emptied out. The chief offseason focus for solution namely fixing the pass rush isn't solved and the team potentially faces another season weaker than the last. Is there a plan B, or C, or is D the unfortunate potential reality? The team had the lowest pass rush sack success of any team against the pass last season so perhaps it's hard to get worse but without something being done things will likely be worse.

Of course perhaps there is a plan we don't know about, or a trade that is quietly being kept silent which will make Jn'P look like wizards again, but you can only go to that well so many times. There is little doubt they are good at building teams that can compete. I am just confused by the lack of attention to this primary area of team need. I also can't yet see where the cap space to sign Clowney will come from either. I just don't believe the draft is going to bring the answers for the pass rush this draft. Where's the pass rush going to come from?

If this appears just me being critical I'm certainly not alone. Perhaps this is a polaroid picture that is slowly developing and I just need to be patient to see it, but as lifelong fan I am allowed to be concerned. I truly hope I'm wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time.

Hey Jammerhawk, thanks for the long and thoughtful response. I agree with the majority of what you say here and you're probably more nuanced in your thinking than I am. Like I said, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna when it comes to the Hawks in general and the FO in particular. They are playing high stakes brinksmanship with the edge rushing position for sure and it's unnerving for most of us. I have faith that they will get something done that won't leave the cupboards bare for the near term or the future whether it be Clowney or Griffen. These guys are playing a serious game of poker and it's tough to figure out the odds of victory right now. The waiting is definitely hard and whoever blinks first at this point is the loser. I think that's why they asked a draft prospect (was it Dickson?) how long he could go without blinking! JS never blinks, he must just put drops in his eyes!

I digress, there are probably 2-3 alternate scenarios that they have some comfort in be it a trade or whatnot. Lesser FA guys we could add that they have some Clemons-like confidence in maybe. I will say it's hard to wait on this stuff. JS and PC have balls of steel. 90%+ of us on the board would have caved in by now to just get the deal done. Successful negotiations often take a long time, though, and require intestinal fortitude, which our FO has in spades.

 

[BigMeach]

So what's the 4D Chess strategy that PC&JS have? The only players signed in mass have been scrub olinemen and one solid trade for Quinton Dunbar, a defensive back. Hardly addresses the underlying issue of a crap pass rush.

Irvin and Reed are a start, and I assume John isn't done.

So let's all hold out collective breath...................now breath out slowly and wait until AFTER free agency is over before kicking John and Pete in the nuts.

Considering this was to be the offseason priority Jn'P haven't addressed the problem at all and in fact they have not got better and arguably regressed. The question posed by Dan is a fair question, is there any plan at work here, b/c it isn't very clear? Where's the beef?

The cupboard of proven edge rushers is now mostly empty and they seemingly are at a stalemate with Clowney that may see the cupboard totally empty out before it is possibly resolved negatively for the team. Irvin is an upgrade but not by much over Ansah, but that doesn't account for the loss of Jefferson, he was better than Jackson. Reed was here last season so that is a push. No Woods but Mone was taking his reps by the end of the season so that is a push or close enough.

In fact the D has been neglected and the only two defensive deals of any hope for improvement are with Irvin and Dunbar. It's confusing to watch b/c it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Not kicking in the nuts but these guys need to fix the pass rush and the draft isn't looking that good for the source of help.

It's a fair question and criticism on August 30th, not March 24th.

It's like going to Red Robin and complaining about how terrible your burger tastes before it's even to your table.

And here I thought I was the only one... that darn dirty BIRD!!!!!

 

[BASF]

Never the less, this is the point in free agency where new teams aren't all of a sudden going to jump into the mix and pay him more. Caps are set, most first wave FA's are signed, it is what it is for him. Not sure what waiting is accomplishing.

I am pretty sure that he is thinking that if he can wait out the virus and he can get physicals by teams to assuage their fears, so he can get his long awaited payday.

 

[hawkfan68]

Never the less, this is the point in free agency where new teams aren't all of a sudden going to jump into the mix and pay him more. Caps are set, most first wave FA's are signed, it is what it is for him. Not sure what waiting is accomplishing.

I am pretty sure that he is thinking that if he can wait out the virus and he can get physicals by teams to assuage their fears, so he can get his long awaited payday.

Exactly! Looking at it from his point of view, it’s probably the smartest way to go. There’s really no rush to sign. I’m sure his agent, Bus Cook, is advising him to refrain.

 

[Appyhawk]

According to what I've read the only Clowney suitors left are Seattle and the Titans. I don't know the Titans financial status but I it seems like they've spent a ton of money in FA already this year. There are conflicting reports regarding the number the Seahawks are reportedly offering. I think the 13.5 is too low. The 18.5 report sounds much nearer to reasonable. Clowney turned down 17 from the Dolphins. Shouldn/t be too much longer before this deal is resolved.

 

[Jville]

According to what I've read the only Clowney suitors left are Seattle and the Titans. I don't know the Titans financial status but I it seems like they've spent a ton of money in FA already this year. There are conflicting reports regarding the number the Seahawks are reportedly offering. I think the 13.5 is too low. The 18.5 report sounds much nearer to reasonable. Clowney turned down 17 from the Dolphins. Shouldn/t be too much longer before this deal is resolved.

As of close today, the Titans had $35,874,851 in cap room available with 55 contracts on file.

 

[kf3339]

I just have a bad feeling about Clowney re-signing with us after this last week of FA. He has to know there are only a few possible teams left (Seahawks, Titans, maybe one more) and his negotiating position is now compromised. If he really wanted to stay a deal would have been made by now. If he is waiting out the ability to visit other teams for medical visits then that is a sign he really isn't looking our direction that strongly right now. We are giving him the upper hand.

I am just worried that we have waited him out long enough. Other teams have moved on and made moves for the DE position. I get the feeling what the FO is playing a very bad game with this position on the team. They have done a remarkable job with the rest of the roster. I will give them much credit for those moves.

But the absolute fact is the draft DE position overall is very weak and we needed this area fixed in the FA market. All that is left is over 30 year old FA's and Clowney. Only other choices are trade options that costs us picks.

JS and PC need to stop this game by Friday and start looking in other directions. If Clowney then walks, he was never coming back to us anyway.

Just my opinion.

 

[blackjack203]

Not only is pass rush a problem but Seattle ranked 22nd in the league in rush defense last year and we lost a couple of really stout players from that group. Regardless of pass rushers if I was lining up against Seattle next year I'd run it right up the middle until they proved they could stop it and then, play action.. This defense is toast as currently staffed.

 

[jammerhawk]

Which raises the question again, WTH is the plan? Or, alternatively "Where's the beef?".