Watching Mahomes/Allen, I like Wilson less

[John63]

Mahomes
17 games
66 complt%
37 tds
13 ints
2.84 td/int
7.4 ypa
98.5 passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

Allen
17 games
63% complt
36 tds
15 ints
2.4 td/int
6.8 ypa
92 passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

Wilson
14 games
65% complt
25 tds
6 ints
4.2 td/int
103 Passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php
Avg oline should hold for 2.5 seconds

Hmm

Now support
KC run game
115 YPG
4.5 YPA
16 tds

Bills run game
130 ypg
4.8 ypa

Hawks run game
122 ypg
5 ypa

Defense
KC
27th by yards
8th by points
5th in takeaways

Bills
1st by yards
1st by points
3rd in takeaways

Seattle
28th by yards
12th by points
26th in takaways

Hmm

So the FACTS show Wilson was every bit as good as both of them with less support. Now as to the running and acrobatics throws maybe you should look at the game before he got hurt and the last game against AZ and remember. The only thing Mahomnees and Allen has on Wilson is youth and a system built for them

 

[TwistedHusky]

I might be overlooking something, or missing a big chunk of Patrick's successes?

Unless I am confused, Mahomes has 2 SB attended, one win.
(With a better coach.)

Not sure where Mahomes is clearly eclipsing Wilson except for the year Wilson is injured (or except for going deeper in the playoffs....with a better coach).

But it isn't as if Mahomes is succeeding in ways that Wilson could never deliver.

 

[ivotuk]

Cam Newton used to run players over, now his career's over due to injuries.

Mahomes is learning to protect himself after having gotten injured playing tough guy.

Russell Wilson plays it smart, because the best "ility" is availability. But, when it gets to the Playoffs, he will run more, and take a bit to make a 1st down on 4th down. He's been smart about it. Which means he'll be a great QB for years to come.

The silliest thing I keep hearing is "Just go draft another Quarterback... As if it is that easy! Silly posters!

Not even Josh or Mahomes were picked 1st in their drafts. Nobody knew which QBs were going to be good.

I propose a new dot NET rule. If you demand we trade away Russell, and "just draft another QB," then you have to name the QB you would choose to replace Russell, and have it as a permanent part of your signature.

PLUS, you must tattoo it on your forehead. So we can all point and laugh in the future. :snack:

 

[Torc]

Andy Reid is on record as saying he had wanted Russell Wilson when he was drafted. Imagine a world where Wilson went to the Chiefs as a rookie, and then we got Mahomes in 2017. What do you think the outcome would be?

I suspect Russ would have lit it up in an offense tailored to his abilities, and Mahomes would have had some solid success and then slowed down as he got the crap beat out of him with tons of sacks. Why build a solid pass blocking offensive line when you have a QB who can just evade the rush, amiright?

Mahomes astounds me, but Wilson has astounded me plenty in his career too. Always blows my mind how Russ somehow makes bargain basement receivers look awesome. He's never had a Tyreek Hill or anyone even in the ballpark. (DK could be that guy with maturity, and if memory serves me correctly he's the highest drafted receiver that Russ has ever had, in the second half of round 2)

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Running for his life and making spectacular things happen. That sure sounds like Russ. How in the world can anyone not understand that we have seen the spectacular on a regular basis for a decade? And with what has had to work with?
Do people even watch the game? Russ has never had a TE even CLOSE to Kelsey.

That being said, I think Mahomes and Allen are the best 2 QB's in the league right now. They are just ridiculous good, and so fun to watch. But that doesn't take anything away from Russ, Rodgers, Watson, Burrow, Herbert etc.
I'm just looking forward to Rodgers and Brady retiring and moving on. There are some damn good QB's in the league, will be nice to see more focus on the newer breed of guys. And not just 24/7 worship of Rodgers and Brady.

 

[jammerhawk]

This is something like comparing apples to oranges.

Both Allan and Mahomes are highly innovative QBs while Wilson is less so in the schemes he plays in. I don’t know that it’s fair to throw rocks at Wilson for this reason save for the fact that both those guys tend to throw their WRs open more than Wilson and both seem quicker at recognizing open receivers than Wilson. That said Wilson can do whatever those other two QBs can and perhaps is better with a deep ball than both.

Frankly as well given the personnel the Hawks have it isn’t hard to see why those programs have their run and gun offences.

As ever though is it really necessary to have the gratuitous slag PC factor in this thread too?

One thing that was certain I the Buff/KC game was that neither D could find answers for their opponent’s O.

 

[chris98251]

Running for his life and making spectacular things happen. That sure sounds like Russ. How in the world can anyone not understand that we have seen the spectacular on a regular basis for a decade? And with what has had to work with?
Do people even watch the game? Russ has never had a TE even CLOSE to Kelsey.

That being said, I think Mahomes and Allen are the best 2 QB's in the league right now. They are just ridiculous good, and so fun to watch. But that doesn't take anything away from Russ, Rodgers, Watson, Burrow, Herbert etc.
I'm just looking forward to Rodgers and Brady retiring and moving on. There are some damn good QB's in the league, will be nice to see more focus on the newer breed of guys. And not just 24/7 worship of Rodgers and Brady.

Jimmy Graham............

Zach Miller...............

They were in his league, we didn't use them that way however.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Good players. Not even close to Kelsey. Loved Miller, he was such a solid player, and a hell of a blocker.
Also, imagine having a guy like Hill. Miserable human, but a flat out monster player.

 

[toffee]

Our Russ is more than Mahomes and Allen, he is as good if not better when it comes to QB. But our Russ is more than that, he helps children, makes music videos, watch superbowl with the commissioner, and markets his own perfume, on and on with unlimted projects, our Russ is supreme at multitasking. Mahomes and Allen not even close.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Wilson isn't a bad QB, but it is important to realize that he has some limitations that other QB's do not. As I said before, Wilson really reminds me of big Ben. Their career arcs are very similar as well. Ben was a QB that thrived on playing that backyard style of football, like Wilson he loved those deep bombs and he also was known for being clutch. That being said, the Steelers offenses over the years have faced the same criticisms that Seattle's has. Ben, like Wilson went through many different coordinators and raised a stink about the offenses that he's played in. I remember Steeler fans talking about how Bruce Arians was such an awful coordinator. Turns out when he got ahold of a QB like Carson Palmer, and Andrew Luck that all of the sudden his offenses looked more dynamic.

Wilson is never going to be Mahomes/Allen. That doesn't mean he's a bad QB, but I would definitely say that his stats have never told the whole story on Wilson. With Wilson we're always going to have an inconsistent offense unless we get a strong running game. He's awful on timing routes over the middle, and his short accuracy is very hit and miss. Wilson has been able to wing the fundamentals of the game due to his unique characteristics.

Does that mean it is time to sell? Well, not necessarily. We don't have any backup or contingency plan. Hell, with Geno Smith's DUI and upcoming FA we don't even have another QB under contract. I do think we should start thinking about moving on from Russell Wilson, if we do it shouldn't be this season unless he forces himself out. I think we've hit the point of diminishing returns with him.

 

[hgwellz12]

I agree and disagree.

I agree that Mahomes and Allen are better because they are different players. Yes...we have seen Wilson go off and spurts but he's not either of those QBs. To use a baseball analogy -- he's not ARod, Barry Bonds, or a power hitter that's going to blow you away with their numbers. Not saying he can't do it but that's not his game. Wilson needs to understand that. His biggest strength is playing with efficiency. Being highly accurate and being consistent with his numbers. He doesn't have to throw over 5,000 yards and over 40 TDs to be highly effective. I think he's just going for the homers every time and I think that diminishes his effectiveness.

I disagree that QB is not a top 10 QB. You do realize he threw for more TDs than Tannehill, Hurts, Murray, and some of the other QBs in the playoffs? That's with missing 3 games and a couple games when he got hurt and he came back too soon to be effective. He's easily a top 10 QB but he needs to temper himself and realize his strengths and stop dreaming of his legacy...He needs to start playing within himself again but Carroll also need to put the ball in Russell's hands when it's time. That doesn't mean let him chuck every time. It means let him take over the game when needed.

Just my thoughts.

Wow. Welcome to the forum! :2thumbs:

 

[toffee]

Wilson isn't a bad QB, but it is important to realize that he has some limitations that other QB's do not. As I said before, Wilson really reminds me of big Ben. Their career arcs are very similar as well. Ben was a QB that thrived on playing that backyard style of football, like Wilson he loved those deep bombs and he also was known for being clutch. That being said, the Steelers offenses over the years have faced the same criticisms that Seattle's has. Ben, like Wilson went through many different coordinators and raised a stink about the offenses that he's played in. I remember Steeler fans talking about how Bruce Arians was such an awful coordinator. Turns out when he got ahold of a QB like Carson Palmer, and Andrew Luck that all of the sudden his offenses looked more dynamic.

Wilson is never going to be Mahomes/Allen. That doesn't mean he's a bad QB, but I would definitely say that his stats have never told the whole story on Wilson. With Wilson we're always going to have an inconsistent offense unless we get a strong running game. He's awful on timing routes over the middle, and his short accuracy is very hit and miss. Wilson has been able to wing the fundamentals of the game due to his unique characteristics.

Does that mean it is time to sell? Well, not necessarily. We don't have any backup or contingency plan. Hell, with Geno Smith's DUI and upcoming FA we don't even have another QB under contract. I do think we should start thinking about moving on from Russell Wilson, if we do it shouldn't be this season unless he forces himself out. I think we've hit the point of diminishing returns with him.

John Schneider did go to scout on Mahomes and Allen, triggered reaction from team Russ. Not just internal, reaction was meant for the world to know.

 

[NINEster]

and 1-4 in Championship games, and has ONE Super Bowl. But hey, stats and MVP's are somehow just as important as playoff success :?
Mr. walk on water lost to a team that had 6 POINTS OF OFFENSE, AT HOME. And with Jimmy G doing little to nothing. But year after year, the worship will continue.

Jimmy G wasn't getting support in first half. 2nd half stats were better for Jimmy than Rodgers.

6 points in 15 degree weather versus getting shut out in 50 degree weather.....

Rodgers lost a surefire win in Seattle because of Brian Bostick.

 

[NINEster]

Wilson isn't a bad QB, but it is important to realize that he has some limitations that other QB's do not. As I said before, Wilson really reminds me of big Ben. Their career arcs are very similar as well. Ben was a QB that thrived on playing that backyard style of football, like Wilson he loved those deep bombs and he also was known for being clutch. That being said, the Steelers offenses over the years have faced the same criticisms that Seattle's has. Ben, like Wilson went through many different coordinators and raised a stink about the offenses that he's played in. I remember Steeler fans talking about how Bruce Arians was such an awful coordinator. Turns out when he got ahold of a QB like Carson Palmer, and Andrew Luck that all of the sudden his offenses looked more dynamic.

Wilson is never going to be Mahomes/Allen. That doesn't mean he's a bad QB, but I would definitely say that his stats have never told the whole story on Wilson. With Wilson we're always going to have an inconsistent offense unless we get a strong running game. He's awful on timing routes over the middle, and his short accuracy is very hit and miss. Wilson has been able to wing the fundamentals of the game due to his unique characteristics.

Does that mean it is time to sell? Well, not necessarily. We don't have any backup or contingency plan. Hell, with Geno Smith's DUI and upcoming FA we don't even have another QB under contract. I do think we should start thinking about moving on from Russell Wilson, if we do it shouldn't be this season unless he forces himself out. I think we've hit the point of diminishing returns with him.

John Schneider did go to scout on Mahomes and Allen, triggered reaction from team Russ. Not just internal, reaction was meant for the world to know.

The world lucked out on that.

 

[NINEster]

Wilson is never going to be Mahomes/Allen. That doesn't mean he's a bad QB, but I would definitely say that his stats have never told the whole story on Wilson. With Wilson we're always going to have an inconsistent offense unless we get a strong running game. He's awful on timing routes over the middle, and his short accuracy is very hit and miss. Wilson has been able to wing the fundamentals of the game due to his unique characteristics.

And yet for some unexplained reason he can throw a ball 60 yards in the air and hit a receiver perfectly in stride with a hockey puck worth of clearance from the defender's hands.

It's mind boggling how that works.

Usually if you can hit passes deep you can hit them everywhere else.

Maybe it's the height?

 

[BigBill1945]

Mahomes
17 games
66 complt%
37 tds
13 ints
2.84 td/int
7.4 ypa
98.5 passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

Allen
17 games
63% complt
36 tds
15 ints
2.4 td/int
6.8 ypa
92 passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

Wilson
14 games
65% complt
25 tds
6 ints
4.2 td/int
103 Passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php
Avg oline should hold for 2.5 seconds

Hmm

Now support
KC run game
115 YPG
4.5 YPA
16 tds

Bills run game
130 ypg
4.8 ypa

Hawks run game
122 ypg
5 ypa

Defense
KC
27th by yards
8th by points
5th in takeaways

Bills
1st by yards
1st by points
3rd in takeaways

Seattle
28th by yards
12th by points
26th in takaways

Hmm

So the FACTS show Wilson was every bit as good as both of them with less support. Now as to the running and acrobatics throws maybe you should look at the game before he got hurt and the last game against AZ and remember. The only thing Mahomnees and Allen has on Wilson is youth and a system built for them

If Russ had the line that these two guys have his stats would be just as good if not better. While I will not deny these guys are good Russ has not had a line that was worth a damn in 3-4 years. It makes a difference. KC and Buffalo did not have to play in our division either having Donald and Von Miller and the Niners having Bosa and company to face. Russ was sacked more times in the last few years than almost any NFL QB. Get him a line and then let's see what he can do.

 

[Throwdown]

Mahomes
17 games
66 complt%
37 tds
13 ints
2.84 td/int
7.4 ypa
98.5 passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

Allen
17 games
63% complt
36 tds
15 ints
2.4 td/int
6.8 ypa
92 passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

Wilson
14 games
65% complt
25 tds
6 ints
4.2 td/int
103 Passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php
Avg oline should hold for 2.5 seconds

Hmm

Now support
KC run game
115 YPG
4.5 YPA
16 tds

Bills run game
130 ypg
4.8 ypa

Hawks run game
122 ypg
5 ypa

Defense
KC
27th by yards
8th by points
5th in takeaways

Bills
1st by yards
1st by points
3rd in takeaways

Seattle
28th by yards
12th by points
26th in takaways

Hmm

So the FACTS show Wilson was every bit as good as both of them with less support. Now as to the running and acrobatics throws maybe you should look at the game before he got hurt and the last game against AZ and remember. The only thing Mahomnees and Allen has on Wilson is youth and a system built for them

If Russ had the line that these two guys have his stats would be just as good if not better. While I will not deny these guys are good Russ has not had a line that was worth a damn in 3-4 years. It makes a difference. KC and Buffalo did not have to play in our division either having Donald and Von Miller and the Niners having Bosa and company to face. Russ was sacked more times in the last few years than almost any NFL QB. Get him a line and then let's see what he can do.

How much time you think a mf need, dude?

Does Russ not bare some of the responsibility bailing out too early, playing off schedule, holding the ball entirely too long?

 

[xray]

Mahomes-Allen-Burrows-Herbert are all bigger , stronger and younger than Wilson and have better coaching staffs . Wilson is still considered very good but has started a downhill slide with a HC that has been sliding for years , IMO

 

[toffee]

Mahomes
17 games
66 complt%
37 tds
13 ints
2.84 td/int
7.4 ypa
98.5 passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

Allen
17 games
63% complt
36 tds
15 ints
2.4 td/int
6.8 ypa
92 passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

Wilson
14 games
65% complt
25 tds
6 ints
4.2 td/int
103 Passer rating
2.4 TTT or TTP (Time to Throw or Time to pressure)

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php
Avg oline should hold for 2.5 seconds

Hmm

Now support
KC run game
115 YPG
4.5 YPA
16 tds

Bills run game
130 ypg
4.8 ypa

Hawks run game
122 ypg
5 ypa

Defense
KC
27th by yards
8th by points
5th in takeaways

Bills
1st by yards
1st by points
3rd in takeaways

Seattle
28th by yards
12th by points
26th in takaways

Hmm

So the FACTS show Wilson was every bit as good as both of them with less support. Now as to the running and acrobatics throws maybe you should look at the game before he got hurt and the last game against AZ and remember. The only thing Mahomnees and Allen has on Wilson is youth and a system built for them

If Russ had the line that these two guys have his stats would be just as good if not better. While I will not deny these guys are good Russ has not had a line that was worth a damn in 3-4 years. It makes a difference. KC and Buffalo did not have to play in our division either having Donald and Von Miller and the Niners having Bosa and company to face. Russ was sacked more times in the last few years than almost any NFL QB. Get him a line and then let's see what he can do.

It really pays to read what our great John63 posted, he clearly stated Russ enjoyed the same 2.4 TTP/TTF as the other two lesser QB.

Read and learn dude, one day you shall become a John63.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

 

[themunn]

Jimmy Graham............

Zach Miller...............

They were in his league, we didn't use them that way however.

You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think either of those TEs stack up with Kelce, who is probably going to retire with every imaginable record for a TE.

Kelce has all the best attributes of both of those TEs combined - despite being drafted 4 years later and redshirting as a rookie he already has more career yards and TDs than Graham, and SIX 1000 yard seasons to Graham's 2, who has played with 3 future HoF QBs vs Kelce's 1 - and he played with Alex Smith for half of tose years. Never mind the fact that Kelce is a true TE who can both block and catch.

Zach Miller isnt even in the same stratosphere as those 2 - Kelce's first season was better than Miller's career year and he's only gone and got better.