The best young players to build a franchise with

[davidonmi]

I think Wilson is more valuable to this team than anyone else, however Thomas is the lynchpin to one of the best defenses of all time and needs to be on this list

 

[kearly]

I see that Newton is starting to threaten Luck's title for the NFL's most over-rated player. I like both and think they would be sensational playing for either SEA or SF, but their performances so far should have them at least a few spots down from the top of the list.

Isn't this topic about which players you're taking first to build a franchise? Y'all crazy if you're taking a Free Safety FIRST to build a franchise out of EVERY available young player. A safety hasn't been taken #1 overall in the last 60 years of NFL drafts. NOT ONE! Look, I agree that Earl is the best free safety in the game and that he means a ton to this franchise, but no safety can impact a team as much as a franchise QB over the course of a season. If they could, then teams would actually draft them in the Top 5, but they never do.

If Pete is our coach, I would take Earl over just about any non-QB player in the league. But yeah, I agree with your point in spirit. This list by Brandt should have led off with a long list of QBs.

Topped by Russell Wilson or Nick Foles, IMO.

 

[davidonmi]

I personally think Newton is more overrated.
I go back to his point totals against NFC west defenses.
6 against AZ, 10 against SF, 7 against SEA, 30 against STL (were a crap road defense this year), and then got challenged by kaepernick in the playoffs and responded with 0 2nd half points and a ghastly interception in the red zone.
I'm sick of hearing how wilson is a game manager but Newton and kaepernick aren't.
I remember a game against miami, he played like crap for 3 and a half quarters, same with NO. Both times he had game winning drives late. Gets all the credit.
Wilson does the exact same thing in Carolina, well he just managed the game. And I contend he actually played really well in that game. Wilson brings the team back from 21-0 down against TB, well it's only tampa. Wilson throws the game winning TD against SF, it was a free play and he was a game manager.
He converts third down after 3rd down against DEN, well he didn't throw 40 times so he's a game manager.
I hate playing the no respect card cause it's stupid and I hate it when hawk fans attack analysts on twitter, but that is absurd. In the article I linked in this thread, this clown had Stafford over him, and threw out a disclaimer about wilson pointing out 3 games where he had comp percentages under 50%, no disclaimer on Stafford's stinkers last season

 

[randomation]

Until Luck stops turning the ball over I wouldn't want to build a franchise around him

 

[volsunghawk]

Just remember, folks. Dude's 80 years old. It's going to take time for him to adjust his thinking on any subject.

Wilson represents a different breed of QB and a departure from the normal physical characteristics. Of course Brandt isn't going to rank him highly, regardless of the SB win.

 

[ctrcat]

I personally think Newton is more overrated.
I go back to his point totals against NFC west defenses.
6 against AZ, 10 against SF, 7 against SEA, 30 against STL (were a crap road defense this year), and then got challenged by kaepernick in the playoffs and responded with 0 2nd half points and a ghastly interception in the red zone.

No doubt, Wilson should be on the list. But after watching Cam Newton for 49 NFL games, I strongly disagree that he's overrated. In fact, before this year, he was statistically the most successful QB after two years in NFL history (with a weak supporting cast which he still has for his WR corps) but didn't get the relative credit for this because the team didn't win and because he came into the league so highly scrutinized.

The games vs. NFC West defenses need to be looked at a little closer, IMO...

The Cardinals game-second half he was not good, but in the first half (which most of America didn't see because the Cowboys/Broncos was on), he was as sharp as I have EVER seen him. Multiple dropped passes, including key TD and 4th down drops by Smith and LaFell took at a minimum 10 points off the board and completely changed the complexion of that game. Everyone deals with drops you say? True, but this one was so bad, that Bill Barnwell/Grantland even wrote an article about it after the game-http://grantland.com/features/bill-barnwell-carolina-panthers-offense/

The first 49ers game-Not great, but made several key throws in crunch-time showing his physical ability in what was a slugfest.

Seahawks game-played well I thought. Executed the game plan within himself. Much was made about how OC Mike Shula tightened the reigns of Cam, but others would call it simply playing to win against a great opponent. If not for the Earl Thomas play/DeAngelo Williams fumble and some key drops by the usually reliable Olsen, it's safe to say there's more than 7 points on the board. Hard to fault Cam.

The playoff game-Not scoring on two consecutive drives from the 1 is an aberration to say the least. The Panthers were overall lucky on the injury front in 2013, with the only exception being the guard position. These injuries killed them in that game and those situations. The second half was a disappointment, perhaps a combination of having a bad day, playing a quality opponent, and being the first time in such a situation.

If someone says he's not elite yet, they may or may not be right and I can certainly see that argument. Overall, he's still only 24 years old and only played one year of big time college football. Wilson has what Cam and every QB wants, but I don't think it's overrating Cam to say he's a "franchise-builder" as Brandt does. JMO.

 

[davidonmi]

I agree it can be explained away, I too thought he played well against Seattle.
And he played incredibly clutch against New England.
However he is right behind luck on most lists and I don't think it's fully earned. Wilson and kaepernick have both had big time games against big time defenses, luck too.
Let's see him do that or even win a playoff game first.

 

[davidonmi]

Not saying he's a bad qb but he's not higher than 10 to 12 on my list

 

[ctrcat]

True, Luck has won a playoff game, but in many ways earning the bye is like winning a playoff game. The team/player that does is often "punished" in these arguments because it sure sounds better to have the extra playoff win. The Colts have also used a lot of picks on offensive playmakers for Luck, including this year (ha!). The Panthers have not (yet!), and it shows. JMO.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Luck allready has 8 postseason INTs. When he throws one more INT he will be on the top 50 list for most intercepted passes in the postseason. I think Luck is my most hated player in the entire nfl for how much hype he gets compared to Wilson and how average he actually is.

Luck so far in his 3 games has 8INT throws 2.6 ints a game. Compared to Favre, the "int king" in the postseason who has 30 career INTs in 23 games for 1.25 ints a game. I know its a small sample size obv but those are the stats.

His rookie year his QB rating was 59.8 in the loss
This year in 2 games his QB rating was 76.4

Furthermore his completion % was 52% and 57% in those years.

Wilson on the other hand has just 1 int in 5 games. The 1 int that shouldnt of even happened because the defense blew the lead Wilson and the offense gave us with 30 seconds to go. Then the Falcons had a horrendous kickoff that allowed Wilson to chuck one up in the endzone for a miracle.

His QB rating for both years is 102.4 and 101.6 with 6 TDs (same as Luck although 2 less games)
His completion % is basically 63% for both seasons.

Oh and he also won one of these and did better than Big Ben, Brady, and Both Mannings in their first superbowl wins. I think Brees, Flacco, and Rodgers did the same if not better than Wilson in their first superbowl win.


Its crazy how underrated Wilsons performance in the superbowl has been. The offense only had 3 total drives in the first half (4 if you count getting the ball back with 1 minute before half which I dont). In those 3 drives they came away with 13 points on 29 plays and drained 14 and 1/2 minutes or so. Wilson completed seven of his eight third-down passes for 83 yards – to four receivers – and the only incompletion was the pass to Jermaine Kearse in the end zone that Nate Irving broke up in the second quarter. Ya the defense played great but they also were able to rest and get off the field with Wilson chewing up the clock and not turning it over.

 

[MikeHoncho7]

You can't really compare what a QB does to what a free safety does. I admit that Earl is basically the "Russell" of the defense, but you can't compare a safety's value to that of a franchise QB. If you could, they would be paid $16-20M/yr. It'd be like saying San Francisco is built around Bowman. While I agree he's their best pure football player, that engine doesn't run without Kaepernick. How many wins do they get with that D and Colt McCoy running the ship?

This team only made "that leap" when Russell was unleashed. Our D was smothering in the first half of 2012, but we were still a .500 team when Russell had the handcuffs on. A franchise QB is EVERYTHING, and it's where you always want to start.

Well I could count at least 6 games that Kap really did nothing to help us win or prevent us from losing.
Indy, Carolina, Seattle, Houston, Jacksonville, New Orleans.

Do I think Colt couldve done any better not really, but in somehe really coulnt have done much worse.
I think people really fail to give this 49ers defense the credit that they deserve.
Won or kept us in a lot of games this year, with out much help from the offense.

If I had to build a team from scratch with a young player this would be my list.

Andrew Luck
Russell Wilson
Cam Newton
Nick Foles
Colin kaepernick

 

[willyum]

you mean that flopper, sCam Newton? the "leader" who got caught cheating at Florida? the man-child who's body language screamed defeat long before the game vs SF was over? the entitled d-bag who at the Pro Bowl last year, pissed off other players so much with his 'me in the spotlight' attitude that they actually tried to hurt him in the pass rush and talked badly about him?

yea no thanks. Cam should not be on that list, not even close. Sorry, but Carolina's identity is that defense, or rather the front seven.

 

[chris98251]

Pete started with a defense first for a reason, we had Hass here. He wanted a game managed and he beleives a defense that can keep a game close and get turnovers sets up a offense. He brought in pieces to assemble the offense while adding depth and speed and pass rush to further clamp down oppositions ability to score and control the ball.

They had said that they were looking at QB's but wanted the right guy and were not in a hurry to pull a trigger, TJack was a temperary addition as well and fit our agenda knowing Bevells offense. Flynn was the first go get them QB we went after with a payday, Wilson fell to them and was they guy they wanted. Nobody could predict how fast he was going to develop and he lit stuff up making Flynn a moot aquisition but one that was a safety net if Wilson hit a wall. Wilson busted down walls and the rest is Super Bowl History.

 

[drdiags]

I agree with Vols. Brandt is just used to how he evaluated players for height/weight/speed from his days with the Cowboys. That is why it doesn't surprise me to see the Dallas tackle included in the list. There are just so many ways you can have this argument. It is his opinion, he gets paid for it. Doesn't mean the sun rises and sets on it. He is not alone in his mode of thinking so I doubt this topic will drop in relevancy to the forum.

Conventional wisdom was that you built around your QB, with a LT to protect his blind side. RBs have dropped in importance and a pash-rushing DE has been the 3rd key according to the folks who write long articles on the matter. 4th would be a shutdown corner if there was such a beast available to you. I would put a strong middle of the defense as just as important as the DE, so a monster at DT, a smart, fast Athletic MLB and Safety would be next for me after the QB, LT and tied with the DE.

If I am a non-Seahawks fan, I would choose Luck or Newton because I would think they physically can stand up to the pounding much like our favorite villain Big Ben. I probably would opt for Trent "dumb as a pile of rocks" Williams but maybe Tyron isn't a bad choice? Not sure about which young DE I would take. MLB would be Kuechly or Wagner. DT, probably Geno or crazy Suh. Earl Thomas would be my Free Safety, Kam would be my Strong safety and Sherman or one of the physical freak, fast guys such as the Cardinals DB. Or maybe one of the young fellows in the AFC. Names escape me right now.

Wilson is a special talent. I think in a few years he will be putting up those crazy numbers the stat and fantasy folks like to see. It just isn't needed right now plus he and the coach are still building a trust thing. Pete seems to be very concerned in the QB-trust relationship. He has been that way with all the QBs while here. I am thinking he will let Wilson sling it eventually, but not just yet.

 

[ctrcat]

you mean that flopper, sCam Newton? the "leader" who got caught cheating at Florida? the man-child who's body language screamed defeat long before the game vs SF was over? the entitled d-bag who at the Pro Bowl last year, pissed off other players so much with his 'me in the spotlight' attitude that they actually tried to hurt him in the pass rush and talked badly about him?

yea no thanks. Cam should not be on that list, not even close. Sorry, but Carolina's identity is that defense, or rather the front seven.

That's certainly a glass half empty view of Cam, but everyone's entitled to their opinion. Very few human beings on the planet could lead their team back from 24 down in one of the most intense settings in American sports, but he did it.

National Champion at Florida, Junior College National Champion, National Champion at Auburn (only since 1957, 5 loss team years before and after, coach fired 2 years later), Heisman Trophy, Rookie of the Year, 2x Pro Bowl. Again very few 24 year olds in sports history have a comparable resume.

It even took Cam's current neighbor and mentor Michael Jordan seven years to win his first. No, Cam is not in the same stratosphere as MJ now, no one is, but if he's even remotely close in 15 years, Wilson is still a very strong Isiah Thomas, still a top all time player who won multiple titles before MJ with great, physical Pistons teams.

Both are "franchise builders". JMO.

 

[chris98251]

I find it amusing that Brandt doesn't have Wilson higher yet he had Roger Staubach as his QB. Not so unlike Wilson.