Super excited to see the 2 best young MLBs in the NFL sunday

[vin.couve12]

This is clear cut and quite honestly, I wouldn't trade Wagner for any other MLB/ILB in the NFL.

Finally, one more interesting tidbit. Millen and NFL Network researcher Matt Hamilton, seeking to find a substitute for the tackles statistic (which Millen calls worthless), looked at EVERY SINGLE PLAY by an inside linebacker in the NFL this year, and counted what they called “impact tackles”: tackles on gains of 3 yards or less, tackles for loss, sacks or fumbles, or tackles on third or fourth down if they stopped the conversion.

The NFL leader might surprise you: Seattle’s Bobby Wagner. Bowman was second, just two tackles behind Wagner. Millen said Willis was fourth or fifth.

Technically the study showd that Willis wasn't 4th or 5th. He was 5th. Kuechly was 7th in this category. I did quite a lot of film study when I knew we were about to go in another direction in the middle and Wagner was far and away the single player I wanted most in that entire draft. Especially knowing that we would go pass rusher 1st and hopefully available in the 2nd. Wagner was far and away the best middle backer at the POA and had the athletic ability of a top safety in the event that he could digest the NFL passing game and he certainly does. IMO, Wagner is the single most well rounded MLB in the game. Morgan is absolutely correct that there is literally nothing Bobby can't do. When I put in the college tape of Keuchly at the time I saw a player who didn't engage blocks and while his tackle totals were high, he sometimes hurts his team by trying to avoid blocks because he loses gap control in doing so. The fact that he makes the tackle downfield after chasing the ball down is really a meaningless stat at that point if the gap control at the LOS is lost because of him in the first place. In a 1 gap scheme that is unacceptable, IMO. FF to one year ago and you put in the tape of SEA vs CAR and while Keuchly's stateline on the surface looks like a good game, we ran at him a lot and I counted 3 times that he was planted in the dirt while possibly missing a 4th time by Mike Rob. His INT was a gift from Marshawn and the TFL was just a plain good read, which he really does excel at. Furthermore, I do believe that is the reason CAR went after two DTs and I think they chose wisely. Star and Short are two DTs I liked very much and Kuechly will benefit very much from the play of those two so that, as Morgan puts it, he will be more free to make plays.

Be grateful you get to watch Bobby Wagner in the Seattle Seahawks uniform. He really has no weakness...save experience.

 

[hawker84]

Bowman is better than Wagner. He is an all pro, so I am not the only one who thinks that. Bowman actually outplayed Willis last season. Bowman is pretty good in coverage and made the drive stopping play to advance the 49ers to superbowl last season.

And yet Wagner had better numbers than bowman in damn near every catagory last season, so by your logic Wagner is the second best middle linebacker in our division behind willis or bowman, you make the pick. might want to check stats before posting :34853_doh:

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Bowman is better than Wagner. He is an all pro, so I am not the only one who thinks that. Bowman actually outplayed Willis last season. Bowman is pretty good in coverage and made the drive stopping play to advance the 49ers to superbowl last season.

Meh, apples to oranges they are even at best. just like Revis and Sherman. It's really all about the scheme they play in beyond that. Though I think Wagner is far more complete as a LB than Kuechley. Bowman obviously is right on the same level but in the end it's apples to oranges. You won't go wrong with any of them.

As for Sherman and Revis? That's a pure scheme and assignment deal. They're asked to do very different things.

 

[themunn]

even Seattle hater Matt Millen ranked Wagner as the best 4-3 MLB in the league last year.
Wagner is our defensive playcaller and leader. And he's 23. There's no doubt that when it comes to best young MLB in the league he's at the very top of the list. Kuechly is arguable, he's a very very very good player, he stops everything that comes at him or near him, but Wagner hunts them down.

Just like Sherman and ET were for a long time, his play has consistently been glossed over as "well he's only doing so well because the rest of the defense is so good", which is the complete opposite of the truth, as when you're the weak link in a defense, you stand out. If Wagner was significantly worse than the rest of the defense, you can bet your life that he would be the focus of every single play by an OC, and we would see him make mistake after mistake after mistake. That simply doesn't happen.

 

[razgriz737]

Just like Sherman and ET were for a long time, his play has consistently been glossed over as "well he's only doing so well because the rest of the defense is so good", which is the complete opposite of the truth, as when you're the weak link in a defense, you stand out. If Wagner was significantly worse than the rest of the defense, you can bet your life that he would be the focus of every single play by an OC, and we would see him make mistake after mistake after mistake. That simply doesn't happen.

Exactly. Wagner was plugged straight into an elite defense and we didn't skip a beat.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

THere is something I researched in a thread called " awards we never won ".

Bobby Wagner should have also been DPOY as MLB of the No. 1 Scoring Defense and No. 4 Yardage Defense as was just as productive as Kuelchy per snap.

Kuechly had 921 snaps compared to Wagner's 849.

Unfortunately, I think FO includes playoff snaps counts when you choose the "ALL" selection. If that's the case, Wagner's performance is:

849 snaps: 157 tackles, 2 sacks, 5 passes defensed, 4 Ints, and 0 FF.

Luke Kuelchly:

921 snaps: 164 tackles, 1 sack, 8 passes defensed, 2 Ints and 0 FF.

So in 72 less snaps the considerable difference between Wagner and Kuelchly is a mere 7 tackles and 3 passes defensed.

It was a close call between Griffin and Wilson but Wilson still finished 3rd behind Luck.

However, Wagner should have won DPOY, just as good of an individual player on a statistically better defense.

I will find time today to double check those stats as well as form a more complete comparison.

I find it hilarious and very annoying that while 'hawks fans are at least subjective in picking between the two lbers but Panthers fan don't even care what the numbers say...LK is superman... its him and only him.

Yet, stats plus production plus draft position plus expectations in correlation to the success of their teams defenses suggest Bobby Wagner was the better player.

And honest you can't even make the argument that Wagner had the better supporting cast.

1. Mebane was the only Seahawks DT with positive run grades and he gradually less effective week to week as he worn down.
2. Bryant was injured with the foot.
3. Branch had one of the worst grades vs the run but some of that was scheme.
4. Wagner had considerably slower lber in support in ol Leroy Hill and big KJ Wright.

The Seahawks run defense was on the verge of falling out but it was Wagner with consistent play that made sure it did not fully collaspe.

 

[themunn]

DROY maybe. JJ Watt had arguably the best season by a defensive player ever

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

DROY maybe. JJ Watt had arguably the best season by a defensive player ever

Most definitely meant DROY. Seahawks already have a DPOY in their history but not DROY.

Funny thought, didn't Tatupu place 2nd behind Merriman in 2005. Talk about close but no cigars. Like Bobby Engram who should have won comeback player of the year in 2007. The guy was super sick in 2006, and was balls to the wall productive as a slot WR in 2007.

 

[pmedic920]

I just don't think you can compare the impact of Kuechly to Wagner. Kuechly has monster potential. I thought he would bust coming out but it was more of a gut feeling than really anything I had seen on him. He is a monster.

And btw. Just because I don't agree with you or if I point out a massive homer statement, does not mean I am trolling. Go away if you don't like my opinion.

I will say, this is our home. A lot of our statements will be homer statements. If you are going to spend your time pointing them out, you better have a lot of time.

 

[McGruff]

Kuechly was the same thing in Carolina that he was in college . . . The best seven yard downfield tackle stat compiler I've ever seen. He simple dodges blockers and waits for the play to come to him.

Wagner is far more aggressive and instinctual. IMo it's nt even close.

 

[pmedic920]

I will add this. IMHO the better a LB corps is as an unit, the less each individual will stand out. Just sayin.

 

[FriendlyCat]

I will add this. IMHO the better a LB corps is as an unit, the less each individual will stand out. Just sayin.

Hi guys. Big Wagner fan and LB play on general.

That is true but also I think you need to consider DT play in front of a MLB. What was so impressive about Luke last year is he had some bad DT play in front him and still put up that production.

If Beason stays healthy this year that will probably aid Luke and reduce some of him making so many plays all over.

 

[formido]

This is clear cut and quite honestly, I wouldn't trade Wagner for any other MLB/ILB in the NFL.

Finally, one more interesting tidbit. Millen and NFL Network researcher Matt Hamilton, seeking to find a substitute for the tackles statistic (which Millen calls worthless), looked at EVERY SINGLE PLAY by an inside linebacker in the NFL this year, and counted what they called “impact tackles”: tackles on gains of 3 yards or less, tackles for loss, sacks or fumbles, or tackles on third or fourth down if they stopped the conversion.

The NFL leader might surprise you: Seattle’s Bobby Wagner. Bowman was second, just two tackles behind Wagner. Millen said Willis was fourth or fifth.

Technically the study showd that Willis wasn't 4th or 5th. He was 5th. Kuechly was 7th in this category. I did quite a lot of film study when I knew we were about to go in another direction in the middle and Wagner was far and away the single player I wanted most in that entire draft. Especially knowing that we would go pass rusher 1st and hopefully available in the 2nd. Wagner was far and away the best middle backer at the POA and had the athletic ability of a top safety in the event that he could digest the NFL passing game and he certainly does. IMO, Wagner is the single most well rounded MLB in the game. Morgan is absolutely correct that there is literally nothing Bobby can't do. When I put in the college tape of Keuchly at the time I saw a player who didn't engage blocks and while his tackle totals were high, he sometimes hurts his team by trying to avoid blocks because he loses gap control in doing so. The fact that he makes the tackle downfield after chasing the ball down is really a meaningless stat at that point if the gap control at the LOS is lost because of him in the first place. In a 1 gap scheme that is unacceptable, IMO. FF to one year ago and you put in the tape of SEA vs CAR and while Keuchly's stateline on the surface looks like a good game, we ran at him a lot and I counted 3 times that he was planted in the dirt while possibly missing a 4th time by Mike Rob. His INT was a gift from Marshawn and the TFL was just a plain good read, which he really does excel at. Furthermore, I do believe that is the reason CAR went after two DTs and I think they chose wisely. Star and Short are two DTs I liked very much and Kuechly will benefit very much from the play of those two so that, as Morgan puts it, he will be more free to make plays.

Be grateful you get to watch Bobby Wagner in the Seattle Seahawks uniform. He really has no weakness...save experience.

Yep. And, Wagner was rated by PFF as the #2 linebacker in the NFL last year, way behind #1 Willis, but definitely ahead of Bowman and Kuechly.

 

[vin.couve12]

This is clear cut and quite honestly, I wouldn't trade Wagner for any other MLB/ILB in the NFL.

Finally, one more interesting tidbit. Millen and NFL Network researcher Matt Hamilton, seeking to find a substitute for the tackles statistic (which Millen calls worthless), looked at EVERY SINGLE PLAY by an inside linebacker in the NFL this year, and counted what they called “impact tackles”: tackles on gains of 3 yards or less, tackles for loss, sacks or fumbles, or tackles on third or fourth down if they stopped the conversion.

The NFL leader might surprise you: Seattle’s Bobby Wagner. Bowman was second, just two tackles behind Wagner. Millen said Willis was fourth or fifth.

Technically the study showd that Willis wasn't 4th or 5th. He was 5th. Kuechly was 7th in this category. I did quite a lot of film study when I knew we were about to go in another direction in the middle and Wagner was far and away the single player I wanted most in that entire draft. Especially knowing that we would go pass rusher 1st and hopefully available in the 2nd. Wagner was far and away the best middle backer at the POA and had the athletic ability of a top safety in the event that he could digest the NFL passing game and he certainly does. IMO, Wagner is the single most well rounded MLB in the game. Morgan is absolutely correct that there is literally nothing Bobby can't do. When I put in the college tape of Keuchly at the time I saw a player who didn't engage blocks and while his tackle totals were high, he sometimes hurts his team by trying to avoid blocks because he loses gap control in doing so. The fact that he makes the tackle downfield after chasing the ball down is really a meaningless stat at that point if the gap control at the LOS is lost because of him in the first place. In a 1 gap scheme that is unacceptable, IMO. FF to one year ago and you put in the tape of SEA vs CAR and while Keuchly's stateline on the surface looks like a good game, we ran at him a lot and I counted 3 times that he was planted in the dirt while possibly missing a 4th time by Mike Rob. His INT was a gift from Marshawn and the TFL was just a plain good read, which he really does excel at. Furthermore, I do believe that is the reason CAR went after two DTs and I think they chose wisely. Star and Short are two DTs I liked very much and Kuechly will benefit very much from the play of those two so that, as Morgan puts it, he will be more free to make plays.

Be grateful you get to watch Bobby Wagner in the Seattle Seahawks uniform. He really has no weakness...save experience.

Yep. And, Wagner was rated by PFF as the #2 linebacker in the NFL last year, way behind #1 Willis, but definitely ahead of Bowman and Kuechly.

I saw that too. Any which way you cut it he's one of the single best backers in all of football.

 

[McGruff]

I saw that too. Any which way you cut it he's one of the single best backers in all of football.

But he can't be . . . He's a second round pick!