RW has been Sacked 44 times / tied for #1 in the NFL

[scutterhawk]

Of course you need your OL to hold up part of the time. There needs to be a minimum standard, I agree. But I think that floor is lower than people think it is (most fans don't even realize that 2.5 seconds is actually the NFL standard for generaly required pass protection). Nobody in this thread has yet addressed the examples of bad offensive lines in front of good quarterbacks. There are multiple such examples out there over the last decade and nobody has an alternative explanation for it.

Super Bowl 48.....One of the Leagues most prolific Quarterbacks EVER.....His O-Line faltered, and Manning looked pedestrian.
How many sacks, hits, and pressures did the Stealers get on Hassellbeck in SB 40, with that Star Studded O-Line in front of him?
Protection is NOT overrated.

 

[Anthony!]

Of course you need your OL to hold up part of the time. There needs to be a minimum standard, I agree. But I think that floor is lower than people think it is (most fans don't even realize that 2.5 seconds is actually the NFL standard for generaly required pass protection). Nobody in this thread has yet addressed the examples of bad offensive lines in front of good quarterbacks. There are multiple such examples out there over the last decade and nobody has an alternative explanation for it.

Super Bowl 48.....One of the Leagues most prolific Quarterbacks EVER.....His O-Line faltered, and Manning looked pedestrian.
How many sacks, hits, and pressures did the Stealers get on Hassellbeck in SB 40, with that Star Studded O-Line in front of him?
Protection is NOT overrated.

Every REAL expert will tell you the same thing, the facts and stats show it protecting your QB and giving him time is essential. Can you hide some issue yes, with a Quick passing game, mobile QB, and other things you can hide the oline issues but only to a point. There is NO fact to support the oline is not important as some here elude to. There may be some one offs you can point to, but without knowing the whole dynamics you cannot say for certain anything, Here we know for a FACT you protect Wilson and give him time and he will carve you up. If you don't he can still succeed but it is harder, you have him running for his life and who knows. We are lucky in that we have one of a hand full of QBs who can work behind a horrible pass blocking oline, that does not mean they are not important and you do not want to fix it. The FACT is you must protect your QB and give them time as a norm. As I said you might be able to hide the oline some but eventually it will be exposed.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/bcondotta/status/682667547984936960[/tweet]



Or so he says? Is Condotta implying that Russell is making it up?

It's just Twitter and missing a comma. Look at the parallel construction of "or so."

Rephrased: Wilson says for recovery purposes he swims 30 laps 3 times per week, give or take depending on the week.

Yep.

"Three times a week or so, he says," vs. "Three times a week, or so he says." Grammar and punctuation matter, even in Real Sports Journalism™.

 

[scutterhawk]

Roughly 23% of those have come from the Rams

Yep, and about 85% of those were accompanied with dirty hits and with all their stars on D, they're Still going home for the playoffs.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

...I find it pretty amazing he is the NFL's highest rated passer despite the collection of turnstiles in front of him.

I remember the year the Stealers beat the Cards in the SuperBowl. Big Ben had one of the worst o-lines in all of football. Maybe this year the same will happen in the Conf Champ game...

...and Hasselbeck looked better when he had real targets...

...and Manning's OL immediately looked worse once he left Indy...

...and Carr's OL immediately looked better once he left Houston...

...and Aaron Rodgers is amongst the most-sacked - and best - QBs in the NFL...

I wonder when people are going to get it.

....and Russell Wilson is not one of the best in the league this year in spite of being tied for the most sacks taken AND in spite of being only in his forth season? Has he not made his line look better than it really is on many occasions?

I'm wondering if it's you the doesn't 'get it.' You can't apply a double standard in a effort to appear objective. :roll:

 

[Trrrroy]

I'd be willing to bet Wilson would still be near the tops in the league in sacks behind even a good pass blocking line. Just comes with the territory with his style of play. I can't count the number of time i've seen him try to escape the pocket prematurely only to run right into a sack. Dude sacks himself lot.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

I'd be willing to bet Wilson would still be near the tops in the league in sacks behind even a good pass blocking line. Just comes with the territory with his style of play. I can't count the number of time i've seen him try to escape the pocket prematurely only to run right into a sack. Dude sacks himself lot.

Disagree because as we saw going against poorer defenses he stood in and threw when he had time. He mostly only does that when his o-line starts failing in pass pro like they did last week vs. Team Cheap Shot and like they did early in the season. If he had a line that was as good in pass pro as what we saw vs. Baltimore, Frisco, etc. he wouldn't scramble around and inevitably run himself into (and out of) sacks cuz it wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Popeyejones]

...I find it pretty amazing he is the NFL's highest rated passer despite the collection of turnstiles in front of him.

I remember the year the Stealers beat the Cards in the SuperBowl. Big Ben had one of the worst o-lines in all of football. Maybe this year the same will happen in the Conf Champ game...

...and Hasselbeck looked better when he had real targets...

...and Manning's OL immediately looked worse once he left Indy...

...and Carr's OL immediately looked better once he left Houston...

...and Aaron Rodgers is amongst the most-sacked - and best - QBs in the NFL...

I wonder when people are going to get it.

Totally agreed with what I'm taking the implication of what you're saying to be.

While I think there's obviously SOME relationship between pass blocking ability and sacks, I think the really big story as far as this goes -- and we see it every year -- is the correlation between seconds-to-throw and sacks.

I think ability to manipulate the pocket probably even matters more than pass blocking ability also. Those, in order, are really the two things IMO and both more important than overall pass blocking ability.

It's why we see teams with veteran QBs that are throwing more than anyone still being in the bottom half of the league for giving up sacks, even though they don't have great (or even good) pass blocking O-lines (e.g. Saints, Pats, Chargers Ravens, NYG).

TBF I don't think the takeaway here is that O-line doesn't matter, as I think the truer statement is that "pass blocking doesn't matter as much as people think in the right scheme and with the right QB." For a lot of schemes and for QBs who aren't the cagey veteran type I think it really matters, just as I think it really matters for run blocking (for everyone except for the top three or four RBs in the league).

 

[BadgerVid]

I'd be willing to bet Wilson would still be near the tops in the league in sacks behind even a good pass blocking line. Just comes with the territory with his style of play. I can't count the number of time i've seen him try to escape the pocket prematurely only to run right into a sack. Dude sacks himself lot.

Disagree because as we saw going against poorer defenses he stood in and threw when he had time. He mostly only does that when his o-line starts failing in pass pro like they did last week vs. Team Cheap Shot and like they did early in the season. If he had a line that was as good in pass pro as what we saw vs. Baltimore, Frisco, etc. he wouldn't scramble around and inevitably run himself into (and out of) sacks cuz it wouldn't be necessary.

I would really like to see the "curve" on RW's time to throw. When people speak of his average being high, they seem to fail to account for the fact that when the pocket breaks down within 1.5 secs (which it has frequently), Russell's scramble before throwing adds substantially to that average. I'm not sure where to find the info, but I think there is a good chance that there would be a large number both very much below the average and very much over it...with few around the average.

 

[GeekHawk]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/bcondotta/status/682667547984936960[/tweet]



Or so he says? Is Condotta implying that Russell is making it up?

It's just Twitter and missing a comma. Look at the parallel construction of "or so."

Rephrased: Wilson says for recovery purposes he swims 30 laps 3 times per week, give or take depending on the week.

Yep.

"Three times a week or so, he says," vs. "Three times a week, or so he says." Grammar and punctuation matter, even in Real Sports Journalism™.

Let's eat Gramma!
Let's eat, Gramma!

Punctuation saves lives! :mrgreen:

 

[Hawkscanner]

I'd be willing to bet Wilson would still be near the tops in the league in sacks behind even a good pass blocking line. Just comes with the territory with his style of play. I can't count the number of time i've seen him try to escape the pocket prematurely only to run right into a sack. Dude sacks himself lot.

Disagree because as we saw going against poorer defenses he stood in and threw when he had time. He mostly only does that when his o-line starts failing in pass pro like they did last week vs. Team Cheap Shot and like they did early in the season. If he had a line that was as good in pass pro as what we saw vs. Baltimore, Frisco, etc. he wouldn't scramble around and inevitably run himself into (and out of) sacks cuz it wouldn't be necessary.

I would really like to see the "curve" on RW's time to throw. When people speak of his average being high, they seem to fail to account for the fact that when the pocket breaks down within 1.5 secs (which it has frequently), Russell's scramble before throwing adds substantially to that average. I'm not sure where to find the info, but I think there is a good chance that there would be a large number both very much below the average and very much over it...with few around the average.

First of all, I completely agree with what Hawksfansinceday1 is saying ... because we saw plain as day for ourselves what happens when Wilson actually gets some protection. And with all due respect to MontanaHawk05, we've seen time and time again what happens when you remove a functional offensive line from even a great QB. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have been able to stay afloat despite bad lines because of a quick passing offense -- not everyone in the world can master that.

Anyway, Sheil Kapadia posted those numbers over on ESPN regarding Russell Wilson last week. Here were his numbers during that streak ...

Russell Wilson
Weeks 1-10 …

2.77 seconds average time to get rid of the football (29th)
56.5% completion rate on 3rd Down
88.4 passer rating on 3rd Down (13th in NFL)

Weeks 11-15 …

2.28 seconds average time to get rid of the football (3rd quickest)
79.1% completion rate on 3rd Down
150.6 passer rating on 3rd Down (1st in NFL)

Source:
http://espn.go.com/blog/seattle-sea...mbers-that-explain-russell-wilsons-hot-streak

Shows you just what Wilson is capable of if his offensive line actually gives him protection.

 

[Anthony!]

I'd be willing to bet Wilson would still be near the tops in the league in sacks behind even a good pass blocking line. Just comes with the territory with his style of play. I can't count the number of time i've seen him try to escape the pocket prematurely only to run right into a sack. Dude sacks himself lot.

Disagree because as we saw going against poorer defenses he stood in and threw when he had time. He mostly only does that when his o-line starts failing in pass pro like they did last week vs. Team Cheap Shot and like they did early in the season. If he had a line that was as good in pass pro as what we saw vs. Baltimore, Frisco, etc. he wouldn't scramble around and inevitably run himself into (and out of) sacks cuz it wouldn't be necessary.

I would really like to see the "curve" on RW's time to throw. When people speak of his average being high, they seem to fail to account for the fact that when the pocket breaks down within 1.5 secs (which it has frequently), Russell's scramble before throwing adds substantially to that average. I'm not sure where to find the info, but I think there is a good chance that there would be a large number both very much below the average and very much over it...with few around the average.

First of all, I completely agree with what Hawksfansinceday1 is saying ... because we saw plain as day for ourselves what happens when Wilson actually gets some protection. And with all due respect to MontanaHawk05, we've seen time and time again what happens when you remove a functional offensive line from even a great QB. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have been able to stay afloat despite bad lines because of a quick passing offense -- not everyone in the world can master that.

Anyway, Sheil Kapadia posted those numbers over on ESPN regarding Russell Wilson last week. Here were his numbers during that streak ...

Russell Wilson
Weeks 1-10 …

2.77 seconds average time to get rid of the football (29th)
56.5% completion rate on 3rd Down
88.4 passer rating on 3rd Down (13th in NFL)

Weeks 11-15 …

2.28 seconds average time to get rid of the football (3rd quickest)
79.1% completion rate on 3rd Down
150.6 passer rating on 3rd Down (1st in NFL)

Source:
http://espn.go.com/blog/seattle-sea...mbers-that-explain-russell-wilsons-hot-streak

Shows you just what Wilson is capable of if his offensive line actually gives him protection.

so a couple of things for one neither of those Qbs ever played behind an oline as bad as ours, 2nd Wilson has shown he can do it mastering a quick passing offense but for some reason we went away form that a bit last game.

 

[Popeyejones]

I'd be willing to bet Wilson would still be near the tops in the league in sacks behind even a good pass blocking line. Just comes with the territory with his style of play. I can't count the number of time i've seen him try to escape the pocket prematurely only to run right into a sack. Dude sacks himself lot.

Disagree because as we saw going against poorer defenses he stood in and threw when he had time. He mostly only does that when his o-line starts failing in pass pro like they did last week vs. Team Cheap Shot and like they did early in the season. If he had a line that was as good in pass pro as what we saw vs. Baltimore, Frisco, etc. he wouldn't scramble around and inevitably run himself into (and out of) sacks cuz it wouldn't be necessary.

I would really like to see the "curve" on RW's time to throw. When people speak of his average being high, they seem to fail to account for the fact that when the pocket breaks down within 1.5 secs (which it has frequently), Russell's scramble before throwing adds substantially to that average. I'm not sure where to find the info, but I think there is a good chance that there would be a large number both very much below the average and very much over it...with few around the average.

First of all, I completely agree with what Hawksfansinceday1 is saying ... because we saw plain as day for ourselves what happens when Wilson actually gets some protection. And with all due respect to MontanaHawk05, we've seen time and time again what happens when you remove a functional offensive line from even a great QB. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have been able to stay afloat despite bad lines because of a quick passing offense -- not everyone in the world can master that.

Anyway, Sheil Kapadia posted those numbers over on ESPN regarding Russell Wilson last week. Here were his numbers during that streak ...

Russell Wilson
Weeks 1-10 …

2.77 seconds average time to get rid of the football (29th)
56.5% completion rate on 3rd Down
88.4 passer rating on 3rd Down (13th in NFL)

Weeks 11-15 …

2.28 seconds average time to get rid of the football (3rd quickest)
79.1% completion rate on 3rd Down
150.6 passer rating on 3rd Down (1st in NFL)

Source:
http://espn.go.com/blog/seattle-sea...mbers-that-explain-russell-wilsons-hot-streak

Shows you just what Wilson is capable of if his offensive line actually gives him protection.

If anything those stats are an argument for "time to throw" and Oline pass blocking being overrated in QB performance (although TBF I think it's something else -- scheming to protect Wilson from some of his tendencies that are more useful on early downs and more problematic on third downs)

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

And look, I'm not saying he needs 4 second on every dropback. But the average of 2 1/2 would be nice and he did NOT get that on most drops last week. Plus to further exacerbate the issue last week Donald owned our C and Gs and made the nearly constant push up the middle that causes Russ to reverse spin out and unfortunately into the waiting arms of one of Team Cheap Shot's DEs. I know not every team has a Donald but push up the middle is so disruptive I think we need to see an upgrade at the C position to help with all the good DTs in the league.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

...I find it pretty amazing he is the NFL's highest rated passer despite the collection of turnstiles in front of him.

I remember the year the Stealers beat the Cards in the SuperBowl. Big Ben had one of the worst o-lines in all of football. Maybe this year the same will happen in the Conf Champ game...

...and Hasselbeck looked better when he had real targets...

...and Manning's OL immediately looked worse once he left Indy...

...and Carr's OL immediately looked better once he left Houston...

...and Aaron Rodgers is amongst the most-sacked - and best - QBs in the NFL...

I wonder when people are going to get it.

....and Russell Wilson is not one of the best in the league this year in spite of being tied for the most sacks taken AND in spite of being only in his forth season? Has he not made his line look better than it really is on many occasions?

That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm confused as to the point of your post.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

I remember the year the Stealers beat the Cards in the SuperBowl. Big Ben had one of the worst o-lines in all of football. Maybe this year the same will happen in the Conf Champ game...

...and Hasselbeck looked better when he had real targets...

...and Manning's OL immediately looked worse once he left Indy...

...and Carr's OL immediately looked better once he left Houston...

...and Aaron Rodgers is amongst the most-sacked - and best - QBs in the NFL...

I wonder when people are going to get it.

....and Russell Wilson is not one of the best in the league this year in spite of being tied for the most sacks taken AND in spite of being only in his forth season? Has he not made his line look better than it really is on many occasions?

Wilson hasn't made his offensive line look good via scheme, except against bad competition. He has, however, succeeded in spite of it. Add him to the list of QB's who do the same thing in different ways, and it seems to diminish the total role of the OL in offensive success from "everything" to "just another factor".

 

[Anthony!]

I remember the year the Stealers beat the Cards in the SuperBowl. Big Ben had one of the worst o-lines in all of football. Maybe this year the same will happen in the Conf Champ game...

...and Hasselbeck looked better when he had real targets...

...and Manning's OL immediately looked worse once he left Indy...

...and Carr's OL immediately looked better once he left Houston...

...and Aaron Rodgers is amongst the most-sacked - and best - QBs in the NFL...

I wonder when people are going to get it.

....and Russell Wilson is not one of the best in the league this year in spite of being tied for the most sacks taken AND in spite of being only in his forth season? Has he not made his line look better than it really is on many occasions?

Wilson hasn't made his offensive line look good via scheme, except against bad competition. He has, however, succeeded in spite of it. Add him to the list of QB's who do the same thing in different ways, and it seems to diminish the total role of the OL in offensive success from "everything" to "just another factor".

To me great/elite QBs can play good with bad olines, but to play great/elite they need at least avg olines. I think you are making it a little confusing with how you are saying it Are you saying because of Wilson we do not need a great oline I think we all agree, but we do need at least an avg oline, something our oline is not