RW has been Sacked 44 times / tied for #1 in the NFL

HawKnPeppa

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MontanaHawk05":37sh41u7 said:
Basically, "OL is the least relevant predictor of offensive success" is how I put it. Those who love to talk about how "it all starts in the trenches" have about a decade of mounting evidence to the contrary to deal with.

Another way to put it is, the OL is actually the easiest component of the offense to compensate for. Which makes it the least relevant predictor. Good play-calling can build a quick passing offense that minimizes protection demands for the QB by getting the ball out quickly. WRs with the skills or physical traits to consistently get open or just catch everything thrown their way, like Julio Jones or AJ Green, will give the QB plenty of freedom to throw. A good QB can help the OL with that quick release and his own decision-making and protection checks, and if he's mobile, accurate while mobile, and permitted to scramble, you can get away with even a bad OL. There are too many examples of this (Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Wilson himself for his entire career - he has never had what could be called a good OL) for them to be flukes.

On the other hand, you cannot scheme around the other things nearly as easily. A subpar QB will make inaccurate throws, bad decisions, or hold onto the ball too long. Unremarkable WRs struggle to present themselves as good targets. An OC who isn't creative or adept will leave their offense without direction.

Now, yes - if you have a good offensive line, then things will inevitably happen. It means you've got a Ferrari instead of a Civic. It also means that you're on the hook for every cent that it cost you. Since the cause-effect relationships flow both to and away from the OL, and since there have been so many instances of bad OLs not holding teams back from the Lombardi, I rarely worry about it. I instead worry about the other elements of the team that could be improved more easily.


You make some decent points, but ignore a very big one. QB's of the caliber you mention don't grow on trees. Another thing, you're being very vague about what you term 'offensive success.' Are they racking up yards but not many points? Can they reliably sustain long drives to keep the D off the field and help close out the game. Not sure what you mean by 'offensive success,' but a good (or at least solid) OL usually makes a night and day difference in 'team success,' unless you are the '99 Tama Bay Buc's with their all world D'. Those are, again, exceptions to the rule.

I can't believe you can witness the difference between the first and second half of our season, then minimize the importance of OL. 1. The offence's performance change was night and day in all categories that count. 2. The record pace in sacks allowed might have put even Russell on IR. Is that a desirable thing to happen to your franchise QB? It all starts up front, and that will never change. Lack of adequate run blocking and pass pro is the same as eliminating all of the explosive plays in your playbook. Didn't you enjoy seeing us actually execute some longer-developing plays and even 'gasp' a crossing route to keep a D' honest?

All of the silliness of people dismissing OL becomes evident in the playoffs, when you start trying to match-up against more capable D's. As much as people like to say Brady and Rodgers have played successfully behind terrible OL's, I disagree. They have almost always have al least representative blocking. Rarely do you see 2-3 players immediately busting into the backfield as has been at least the early-season versions of ours.
 

Ambrose83

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HawKnPeppa":1mib804j said:
MontanaHawk05":1mib804j said:
Basically, "OL is the least relevant predictor of offensive success" is how I put it. Those who love to talk about how "it all starts in the trenches" have about a decade of mounting evidence to the contrary to deal with.

Another way to put it is, the OL is actually the easiest component of the offense to compensate for. Which makes it the least relevant predictor. Good play-calling can build a quick passing offense that minimizes protection demands for the QB by getting the ball out quickly. WRs with the skills or physical traits to consistently get open or just catch everything thrown their way, like Julio Jones or AJ Green, will give the QB plenty of freedom to throw. A good QB can help the OL with that quick release and his own decision-making and protection checks, and if he's mobile, accurate while mobile, and permitted to scramble, you can get away with even a bad OL. There are too many examples of this (Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Wilson himself for his entire career - he has never had what could be called a good OL) for them to be flukes.

On the other hand, you cannot scheme around the other things nearly as easily. A subpar QB will make inaccurate throws, bad decisions, or hold onto the ball too long. Unremarkable WRs struggle to present themselves as good targets. An OC who isn't creative or adept will leave their offense without direction.

Now, yes - if you have a good offensive line, then things will inevitably happen. It means you've got a Ferrari instead of a Civic. It also means that you're on the hook for every cent that it cost you. Since the cause-effect relationships flow both to and away from the OL, and since there have been so many instances of bad OLs not holding teams back from the Lombardi, I rarely worry about it. I instead worry about the other elements of the team that could be improved more easily.


You make some decent points, but ignore a very big one. QB's of the caliber you mention don't grow on trees. Another thing, you're being very vague about what you term 'offensive success.' Are they racking up yards but not many points? Can they reliably sustain long drives to keep the D off the field and help close out the game. Not sure what you mean by 'offensive success,' but a good (or at least solid) OL usually makes a night and day difference in 'team success,' unless you are the '99 Tama Bay Buc's with their all world D'. Those are, again, exceptions to the rule.

I can't believe you can witness the difference between the first and second half of our season, then minimize the importance of OL. 1. The offence's performance change was night and day in all categories that count. 2. The record pace in sacks allowed might have put even Russell on IR. Is that a desirable thing to happen to your franchise QB? It all starts up front, and that will never change. Lack of adequate run blocking and pass pro is the same as eliminating all of the explosive plays in your playbook. Didn't you enjoy seeing us actually execute some longer-developing plays and even 'gasp' a crossing route to keep a D' honest?

All of the silliness of people dismissing OL becomes evident in the playoffs, when you start trying to match-up against more capable D's. As much as people like to say Brady and Rodgers have played successfully behind terrible OL's, I disagree. They have almost always have al least representative blocking. Rarely do you see 2-3 players immediately busting into the backfield as has been at least the early-season versions of ours.


Bingo, O Line is huge, you need at least a average one.. we dont even have that... why did we lose last year? because we could not get pressure on brady in the 2nd half... that is on their line and him getting the ball out quickly. We never had guys in the backfield as the ball was snapped against them like we saw agianst the rams.
 

ava

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hawk45":cixfpza4 said:
Odd how Wilson's success suffers heavily vs the Rams which is the biggest OL mismatch we face.
It's almost as if his success is tied to the protection he receives.
Nah it must just be Wilson struggles against the Rams by coincidence. Damn that Wilson.

Okay. I am still learning football and am a recent fan of the sport. Half of the time I am yelling "what just happened"? For what it is worth I think Russell Wilson is unique and a very special player. I am astounded by his durability. When my QB gets hit I cringe and worry each and every time. RW though, no worries. He just jumps up and dusts himself off. I wonder how long he can endure though? Am I naïve to think how hard can it be to find some big bodies with the talent to protect him and pay them a bunch of money? On a side note I also think the team greases him up before games! He is so adept at slipping tackles!!!!
 

hawksfansinceday1

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ava":3iikvcv0 said:
hawk45":3iikvcv0 said:
Odd how Wilson's success suffers heavily vs the Rams which is the biggest OL mismatch we face.
It's almost as if his success is tied to the protection he receives.
Nah it must just be Wilson struggles against the Rams by coincidence. Damn that Wilson.

Okay. I am still learning football and am a recent fan of the sport. Half of the time I am yelling "what just happened"? For what it is worth I think Russell Wilson is unique and a very special player. I am astounded by his durability. When my QB gets hit I cringe and worry each and every time. RW though, no worries. He just jumps up and dusts himself off. I wonder how long he can endure though? Am I naïve to think how hard can it be to find some big bodies with the talent to protect him and pay them a bunch of money? On a side note I also think the team greases him up before games! He is so adept at slipping tackles!!!!
Welcome to greatest sport there is. It's an extremely brutal and difficult sport to play but the drama, to me is unmatched. And welcome to .net. :2:

Many of us worry about Russell's long term health, especially as he gets a bit older and a bit less elusive. On the plus side he's solid in terms of muscles on his frame, but In my opinion the time is now to shore up his o-line to an average level for an NFL o-line before he becomes less elusive.
 

MizzouHawkGal

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ivotuk":cnolt1gd said:
That right there should earn him MVP
I'd rather see it earn Cable his walking papers. It's criminal what they are calling an OL. And blind stupid now that they are paying Wilson big money.
 

Jville

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:177692:

If Russell Wilson had a fear of contact, he'd be playing tennis or something.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/bcondotta/status/682666872160976896[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/bcondotta/status/682667547984936960[/tweet]

IMO swimming is the best exercise (including recover exercise) one can engage it.
 

HawkFan72

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Largent80":3pix3tw3 said:
He will unfortunately own the record after the game Sunday.

If he gets sacked 30+ times in this game to set the sack record, that would certainly be quite a meltdown.
 

Seanhawk

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[tweet]https://twitter.com/bcondotta/status/682667547984936960[/tweet]



Or so he says? Is Condotta implying that Russell is making it up?
 

Clayfighter

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Seanhawk":evo78y55 said:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/bcondotta/status/682667547984936960[/tweet]



Or so he says? Is Condotta implying that Russell is making it up?

Maybe he is referring to previous statements by Russ like "concussion water"...
 

MontanaHawk05

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HawKnPeppa":21u649iz said:
MontanaHawk05":21u649iz said:
I can't believe you can witness the difference between the first and second half of our season, then minimize the importance of OL. 1. The offence's performance change was night and day in all categories that count. 2. The record pace in sacks allowed might have put even Russell on IR. Is that a desirable thing to happen to your franchise QB? It all starts up front, and that will never change. Lack of adequate run blocking and pass pro is the same as eliminating all of the explosive plays in your playbook. Didn't you enjoy seeing us actually execute some longer-developing plays and even 'gasp' a crossing route to keep a D' honest?

All of the silliness of people dismissing OL becomes evident in the playoffs, when you start trying to match-up against more capable D's. As much as people like to say Brady and Rodgers have played successfully behind terrible OL's, I disagree. They have almost always have al least representative blocking. Rarely do you see 2-3 players immediately busting into the backfield as has been at least the early-season versions of ours.

You're assuming that the OL was the only thing that changed. The scheme the Seahawks were playing also changed tremendously after the bye week. Bevell shifted to a more spread-like playbook that actually schemed WRs open, relied more heavily on slants and screens, featured hot routes on more third-down plays, and generally helped Wilson get rid of the ball before pressure arrived. It's a night and day difference between the first half of the season, when Bevell called route combinations that required a bunch of short guys to beat man coverage and plays that required more pass protection of a line that couldn't do it well. The results were as expected. Wilson got clobbered. Now? It takes the NFL's best defensive line to get to him, and he still got decent results on third down when his teammates weren't fumbling the ball away.

Calling such a playbook absolutely makes EVERY play easier on the offensive line, even the easier ones. The reason is, it discourages blitzing. A team that knows how to beat the blitz with quick timing routes or checkdowns to areas vacated by a blitzer, the defense isn't going to bring the house as much, because they know they'll be punished for it. So by virtue of a better gameplan, the OL can enjoy easier protection loads for the entire game. Whereas they'll face reckless and unafraid blitzing if the playbook keeps their best TE in to block without disguising it, or features two fullbacks who are terrible at catching passes.

You dismiss Brady and Rodgers out of hand. I'd add Wilson, Roethlisberger, and Peyton to that list. That's a lot of empirically bad lines to dismiss.
 

hawk45

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Gameplan works for a minimum standard of OL. But if the OL is being hidden by faster developing routes, eventually the house of cards falls. As in, opposing defenses focus on the shorter routes and force the OL to hold up.

Bevell tried to counter this vs the Rams with some deep strikes to force the coverage to loosen, but since the OL got their lunch handed to them, this failed. Not that Bevell was or has been blameless (far from that), but the idea that scheme can completely eliminate the effects of a poor line doesn't wash.

The way Wilson works with UDFA WRs, I'd be happy if we took the money and capital we use for weapons like Harvin and Graham and spent it on the OL. My suspicion is that there would be a better outcome. As good as Graham is, he was nullified early in the season by the OL struggles. So was Lynch.

Give Wilson a bit stronger line, and we do fine no matter who is toting the rock, and with UDFAs at 2 of the 3 WR positions. As he proved this year facing defenses who couldn't completely overwhelm his protection. His legs and his arms make this so.
 

Seanhawk

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Clayfighter":yn98176b said:
Seanhawk":yn98176b said:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/bcondotta/status/682667547984936960[/tweet]



Or so he says? Is Condotta implying that Russell is making it up?

Maybe he is referring to previous statements by Russ like "concussion water"...

That's a little different than saying how many laps he swims. Just comes off as condescending to me.
 

nash72

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Ambrose83":20lxnmsu said:
Bingo, O Line is huge, you need at least a average one.. we dont even have that... why did we lose last year? because we could not get pressure on brady in the 2nd half... that is on their line and him getting the ball out quickly. We never had guys in the backfield as the ball was snapped against them like we saw agianst the rams.

Well to be honest, we lost last year because of one, if not the, worst play calls in sports history or we still would have won. Other then that though, the biggest reason was our entire secondary being destroyed with injuries and not being able to make the Patriot receivers pay for those short 5 yard passes like we did against the Broncos the year before. We were slow to the ball and they constantly turned 5 yards passes into 10 and 15 yards Brady was getting rid of the ball so quickly that I don't take much stock in our defensive line not getting pressure on him.
 

Popeyejones

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Seanhawk":1m6y5jto said:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/bcondotta/status/682667547984936960[/tweet]



Or so he says? Is Condotta implying that Russell is making it up?

It's just Twitter and missing a comma. Look at the parallel construction of "or so."

Rephrased: Wilson says for recovery purposes he swims 30 laps 3 times per week, give or take depending on the week.
 

MontanaHawk05

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hawk45":2wdr7lyv said:
Gameplan works for a minimum standard of OL. But if the OL is being hidden by faster developing routes, eventually the house of cards falls. As in, opposing defenses focus on the shorter routes and force the OL to hold up.

A quick passing game is amongst the hardest NFL offenses to counter. It's the reason Brady and Peyton have been so perennially good - they have the ability to maintain that kind of offense, and it's just tough to blanket those routes consistently. It's widely recognized that some offensive systems out there (such as Wilson's play style, and Mike Martz' system was also known for this) lead to more sacks than others. That's well established. It's an illustration of how offensive play-calling affects OL play just as much as vice versa.

And Seattle did convert on several deep strikes, multiple times actually. Against a good defense like the Rams, we did remarkably well on third down. Too many turnovers sentenced that game for us.

Of course you need your OL to hold up part of the time. There needs to be a minimum standard, I agree. But I think that floor is lower than people think it is (most fans don't even realize that 2.5 seconds is actually the NFL standard for generaly required pass protection). Nobody in this thread has yet addressed the examples of bad offensive lines in front of good quarterbacks. There are multiple such examples out there over the last decade and nobody has an alternative explanation for it.

And finally, the reasons I'm opposed to sinking money into the OL are plural. One is, we already tried it. It didn't work. Two is, one wide receiver who attracts and validates jump balls from the QB can have just as much effect as an OL change, and that's why I've never quite been able to dismiss the Jimmy Graham trade. Three, chemistry is a big factor of OL improvement. Shuffle people around and sometimes all it does is set the gelling process back. It's like any outfit that hires a bunch of new people at the same time in hopes of increasing productivity - there's a tradeoff with the training needs, and sometimes familiarizing loads of new folks takes more time than it saves.
 

Ambrose83

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nash72":1m3lb5cd said:
Ambrose83":1m3lb5cd said:
Bingo, O Line is huge, you need at least a average one.. we dont even have that... why did we lose last year? because we could not get pressure on brady in the 2nd half... that is on their line and him getting the ball out quickly. We never had guys in the backfield as the ball was snapped against them like we saw agianst the rams.

Well to be honest, we lost last year because of one, if not the, worst play calls in sports history or we still would have won. Other then that though, the biggest reason was our entire secondary being destroyed with injuries and not being able to make the Patriot receivers pay for those short 5 yard passes like we did against the Broncos the year before. We were slow to the ball and they constantly turned 5 yards passes into 10 and 15 yards Brady was getting rid of the ball so quickly that I don't take much stock in our defensive line not getting pressure on him.


yet before avril went out.. we were getting pressure at will....
 

scutterhawk

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MontanaHawk05":eud2zvix said:
Fade":eud2zvix said:
...I find it pretty amazing he is the NFL's highest rated passer despite the collection of turnstiles in front of him.

ApnaHawk":eud2zvix said:
I remember the year the Stealers beat the Cards in the SuperBowl. Big Ben had one of the worst o-lines in all of football. Maybe this year the same will happen in the Conf Champ game...

...and Hasselbeck looked better when he had real targets...

...and Manning's OL immediately looked worse once he left Indy...

...and Carr's OL immediately looked better once he left Houston...

...and Aaron Rodgers is amongst the most-sacked - and best - QBs in the NFL...

I wonder when people are going to get it.
Oh, I can answer that one..............NEVER................. :roll:
 

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