Robert Gallery vs Luke Joeckel

[toffee]

Robert Gallery, and Luke Joeckel both were first round bust, and both played for the Hawks. From skill and performance perspective, who was better?

 

[Hawkstorian]

Neither was very good here, but from what I remember, Gallery was particularly awful.

 

[OLYhawks]

How dare you!

 

[SNDavidson]

good God way to make the doldrums shittier lol

 

[SNDavidson]

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[SNDavidson]

 

[cymatica]

Neither was very good here, but from what I remember, Gallery was particularly awful.

We got gallery when he was old and injured, but was he awful? I don't remember him being that bad

 

[toffee]

I think we got both on the cheap, and Cable tried to give their career a reboot?

 

[Maelstrom787]

I don't remember Gallery being that bad, but it could just be that he looked so physically imposing that it made his play easier to forgive. He looked like you want your linemen to look, for the most part (could get a little leaner). Big and mean.



Side note: He's lean as hell now.

 

[Hawkspeed]

I hate to look back, in light of the Seahawks new direction on the offensive live.

Tackles, Charles Cross and Abraham Lucas must have contributed to Geno's success last year. Our new rookies, G Anthony Bradford and C Olusegun Oluwatimi seem like "plug in" starters. Include them with existing G Damien Lewis and we have a young and relatively low cost offensive group.

Under coach Cable, the Seahawks tried to cut costs on the offensive line...it didn't work.

We are now on track for an "All Pro" offensive line group that will know each other as friends and will grow up together.

 

[Lagartixa]

I think we got both on the cheap, and Cable tried to give their career a reboot?

Joeckel was NOT cheap.

Joeckel was drafted second overall in 2013 to be a tackle for the Jaguars. They tried him at LT and RT, correctly saw no reason in his first three seasons for them to pick up the fifth-year option on his first-round rookie contract, and then happily let him walk once their four-year sentence for having picked him was over. In Joeckel's four seasons with the Jaguars, he missed a bunch of games with injuries and didn't play very well when available.

For the Jags, Joeckel had been a poor investment of draft capital at tackle, by then a highly-paid position. Jacksonville was unsatisfied paying him what he made on his rookie contract, under which his percentage of the Jags' cap peaked at 3.5%.

The Seahawks then brought him in for $8M, with a cap number of $7.25M, which was 4.3% of the 2017 salary cap, and moved him to guard, where his cap number made him the sixth-most-expensive left guard in the league. His cap hit would also have been third-biggest among right tackles that season, or even 12th-biggest among left tackles. And Joeckel was absolutely awful as a guard. I'd say he was a turnstile, but turnstiles offer more resistance to the person passing through them than Joeckel did. Joeckel's season age in 2017 was 26, but he was never signed by any NFL team again after that.

I stand up for Carroll and Schneider against the people who complain about the Seahawks front office's bad moves while ignoring or undervaluing the good moves. However, that doesn't mean I don't criticize the bad moves. I consider the signing of Joeckel one of the worst moves the "PC/JS" Seahawks have ever made. I still don't understand it. It was a one-year deal, but it wasn't a cheap "prove-it" contract. It had the sixth-biggest cap hit among 2017 left-guard contracts, for a guy who wasn't one of the 64 best guards in the league. It didn't have a team option for further years, so the best-case scenario for the Seahawks was that Joeckel would play reasonably well in 2017, and then cost more after that, so the Seahawks would have either had to pay Joeckel even more to keep him or let him go and sign somebody else (spoiler: in the next offseason, they ended up getting Fluker, and he and Pocic did considerably less badly for a good deal less money). The contract paid Joeckel without him having shown any signs of being worth it, and didn't give the Seahawks any advantages at all, like a team option that could have given them a discount for 2018 if Joeckel had been good in 2017. If the front office thought Joeckel was going to be worth $8M in 2017, it should have gotten at least a team option for 2018. If the front office didn't think Joeckel was going to be that good in 2017, it shouldn't have given him that contract.

My initial assessment of the Joeckel signing when it was announced was that it was a cruel "Joeck" on Seahawks fans, and I'll stand by that over six years later.

 

[ryank24]

Joeckel was NOT cheap.

Joeckel was drafted second overall in 2013 to be a tackle for the Jaguars. They tried him at LT and RT, correctly saw no reason in his first three seasons for them to pick up the fifth-year option on his first-round rookie contract, and then happily let him walk once their four-year sentence for having picked him was over. In Joeckel's four seasons with the Jaguars, he missed a bunch of games with injuries and didn't play very well when available.

For the Jags, Joeckel had been a poor investment of draft capital at tackle, by then a highly-paid position. Jacksonville was unsatisfied paying him what he made on his rookie contract, under which his percentage of the Jags' cap peaked at 3.5%.

The Seahawks then brought him in for $8M, with a cap number of $7.25M, which was 4.3% of the 2017 salary cap, and moved him to guard, where his cap number made him the sixth-most-expensive left guard in the league. His cap hit would also have been third-biggest among right tackles that season, or even 12th-biggest among left tackles. And Joeckel was absolutely awful as a guard. I'd say he was a turnstile, but turnstiles offer more resistance to the person passing through them than Joeckel did. Joeckel's season age in 2017 was 26, but he was never signed by any NFL team again after that.

I stand up for Carroll and Schneider against the people who complain about the Seahawks front office's bad moves while ignoring or undervaluing the good moves. However, that doesn't mean I don't criticize the bad moves. I consider the signing of Joeckel one of the worst moves the "PC/JS" Seahawks have ever made. I still don't understand it. It was a one-year deal, but it wasn't a cheap "prove-it" contract. It had the sixth-biggest cap hit among 2017 left-guard contracts, for a guy who wasn't one of the 64 best guards in the league. It didn't have a team option for further years, so the best-case scenario for the Seahawks was that Joeckel would play reasonably well in 2017, and then cost more after that, so the Seahawks would have either had to pay Joeckel even more to keep him or let him go and sign somebody else (spoiler: in the next offseason, they ended up getting Fluker, and he and Pocic did considerably less badly for a good deal less money). The contract paid Joeckel without him having shown any signs of being worth it, and didn't give the Seahawks any advantages at all, like a team option that could have given them a discount for 2018 if Joeckel had been good in 2017. If the front office thought Joeckel was going to be worth $8M in 2017, it should have gotten at least a team option for 2018. If the front office didn't think Joeckel was going to be that good in 2017, it shouldn't have given him that contract.

My initial assessment of the Joeckel signing when it was announced was that it was a cruel "Joeck" on Seahawks fans, and I'll stand by that over six years later.

I think the Joeckel signing was just further proof of how bad Cable was at assessing linemen. I remembered this quote from back then:


Apparently Cable thought that Joeckel was the best LG in the league the year prior to signing him. So that huge contract they gave him wasn’t intended to be a “prove it” deal, they actually thought his play with the Jags warranted a contract like that.

 

[KinesProf]

Gallery busted as a Tackle for the Raiders but turned into a pretty good NFL guard for a period of time. Joeckel didn't perform particularly well at any position.

I'll give Gallery some props for being able to transition positions and play decently; as it has seemed that when OTs flop they are close to irredeemable - Jason Smith, Greg Robinson, Isaiah Wilson pretty much useless.

 

[toffee]

I think the Joeckel signing was just further proof of how bad Cable was at assessing linemen. I remembered this quote from back then:


Apparently Cable thought that Joeckel was the best LG in the league the year prior to signing him. So that huge contract they gave him wasn’t intended to be a “prove it” deal, they actually thought his play with the Jags warranted a contract like that.

I remember that, Cable messed up on his assessment.

 

[AgentDib]

Joeckel had a 6'6" lanky frame leading to leverage problems at G, similar to both Britt and then later Pocic. He had only played 155 snaps at LG in 2016 before he got hurt, so it was a very small window of data to look at although the numbers were good for that small sample with zero sacks allowed.

His career never really went anywhere and was at least partly cut short due to the injuries. He broke his ankle in his rookie season leading to a long rehab, and then when things were finally looking better for him in year four he had a very severe knee injury tearing the MCL, ACL and doing significant meniscus damage. If we're throwing stones over this signing then I think our medical department probably deserved some of the blame.

The move definitely was a bust, but I personally don't consider it all that bad. Philosophically, free agent dollars are mostly inefficient and spending them on a former #2 overall pick who was only 25 years old isn't a terrible idea. Coming off such a catastrophic knee injury is an enormous red flag, but presumably our medical department checked him out thoroughly and signed off on it.

 

[toffee]

I don't remember Gallery being that bad, but it could just be that he looked so physically imposing that it made his play easier to forgive. He looked like you want your linemen to look, for the most part (could get a little leaner). Big and mean.

View attachment 59567

Side note: He's lean as hell now.

In my everyday live, I encountered guys that were either borned big, and stay big without much effort.

Couldn't it be that some guys like gallery, they train and binge eat themselves to football size? So stop the training and eating normal, they reverted to their nature size, ie a lot slimmer.

OK, I don't know what I am talking about, can someone educate me?

 

[Hawkspeed]

Jackass Coach Cable was very confrontational with both players and other coaches. He got in trouble with the Oakland Raiders when he fought with and broke another coaches jaw. He brought that same selfish attitude here as a Seahawks coach.

In my humble opinion...He is the one who "Broke" Thomas Rawls after his injury. Self confidence is so important and "Little Train" seemed to hesitate after the injury. I remember reading about Coach Cable talking some trash about him. Sorry that I can't find the stories that back up my claim.

 

[bileever]

Joekel, Gallery, Germain Ifedi, George Fant, DJ Fluker, Gary Gilliam, Rees Odhiambo, Patrick Lewis, Cedric Ogbuehi, Oday Aboushi--these are some of the jokers that played on the offensive line from 2016 to 2020. An absolutely ridiculous collection of names that went through the revolving door. And I'm not even including the players who were just mediocre and not awful.

 

[sc85sis]

Fant was an undrafted free agent. No one expected much of him, though he was a decent swing player and did a nice job at that hybrid sixth lineman/TE job.

 

[Lagartixa]

Jackass Coach Cable was very confrontational with both players and other coaches. He got in trouble with the Oakland Raiders when he fought with and broke another coaches jaw. He brought that same selfish attitude here as a Seahawks coach.

In my humble opinion...He is the one who "Broke" Thomas Rawls after his injury. Self confidence is so important and "Little Train" seemed to hesitate after the injury. I remember reading about Coach Cable talking some trash about him. Sorry that I can't find the stories that back up my claim.

One of the good things about the Seahawks online fan community with the silly name (the one that's part of SB Nation) that I frequented before .NET was a guy called John P. Gilbert on the editorial staff. His articles were frequently worth reading. JPG's father is a retired orthopedic surgeon, so JPG would sometimes ask him about specific player injuries. What JPG's dad said about Rawls was scary at the time, and turned out to be right. I liked Rawls so much and really wanted him to do as well as it looked like he could do before his big ankle injury. I didn't like what I saw in JPG's article, but I respected how he had gotten the opinion from somebody who knows about these things, and I respected the surgeon's accumulated knowledge on the subject.

I don't think it was Cable that kept Rawls from coming back. I think it was the physical consequences of Rawls's "high-energy" (I think that's the term Dr. Gilbert used) injury. From what Dr. Gilbert said about the injury and the player's prognosis, no speculative psychological explanation is needed.