Pete Carroll - Coach of the Year?

[LymonHawk]

Even if KC loses two games; to go from 2-14 to 14-2, will usually get you coach of the year. IMHO.

 

[Ad Hawk]

If Peter were coaching a different team, I think he'd win.

Right.... you think this because you have an inferiority complex

Ah, a psychologist, eh? You could be right about my mental makeup, though. :th2thumbs:

But let me state why I think this:

Pete's roster turnover, win % and overall approach has been nothing short of amazing in that last couple of years. I believe he would have won it last year had he been the coach of a money-making team that got more scrutiny and consistent analysis.

This year, should we close well and the chiefs fall a few notches in the standings, PC should again be in line for it, especially with last year's not being awarded to him. I'd say the average fan on this board knows more than most of the mediots about the absolute and comprehensive change Pete has brought to this team. We simply don't get the depth examination that other teams do.

 

[volsunghawk]

You don't win COY for winning with a team that was expected to be great. You win it by doing more with less; by taking a team to a level of success that no one saw coming that season

...

Andy Reid already has this one locked up, no matter how the Chiefs finish the season. No team in the history of the major U.S. pro team sports has ever finished with the worst record in their league and then won their first 9 games the following season....which is even more incredible in the NFL given that 9 games is over half the season.

0 wins over winning teams. A roster full of pro-bowlers and high 1st round picks.

Context is key. You don't have to buy into the cliche sports narratives.

It's not cliche. It's how it works.

The Chiefs didn't set their schedule. Andy Reid is doing what his predecessor in KC was unable to do... win with that roster of pro-bowlers and high 1st round picks. Until Reid got there, those 1st round picks were starting to have the word "bust" tossed around with them.

The fact of the matter is that what Pete has done in Seattle is a full-fledged culture change, and that doesn't happen over a single season, which is why he's not going to be getting any CotY awards. What Reid is doing in KC is maximizing the talent he had on hand and avoiding the mistakes that tend to plague underachieving teams. It's not a culture change... it's more like Reid is bringing calm and focus to what was a chaotic situation. That may not be the top-to-bottom seismic shift that Carroll performed here in Seattle, but it's worth something - especially since the Chiefs are the last undefeated team in the league. It's no snub of Carroll to recognize that achievement... it's just giving credit where it's due.

Remember, what Carroll does rarely fits the NFL paradigm. In a passing league, he built a team that was centered around the run game. We had plenty of knowledgeable folks here worried about that run-heavy focus being outdated and incompatible with today's NFL. He brought in DBOUSs (defensive backs of unusual size), which seemed ludicrous to a bunch of folks (which is why they were available in Canada and late rounds in the draft). He went with an unproven rookie at QB over the guy to whom the team gave a sizable contract, again going against NFL convention. And his rebuild of the Seahawks - with the "can't work in the NFL" rah-rah style coaching, the music at practices, etc. - it's been done in a way that just doesn't fit in with how things are usually done in the NFL. And that's perfectly fine, because that's how visionaries/trendsetters operate. The Seahawks may not be up for a lot of awards at the end of the season, but they're among the teams with the best chance at bringing home the only one that matters.

For the record, I don't think Carroll deserves CotY this year. He's still not a top "in-game" coach, and I think that a lot of the drive and mentality that they can come back no matter what comes from Wilson and the rest of the team leaders (it may have started with Carroll, but I think it's pretty self-sustaining now). I do, however, believe that Carroll should have received CotY last season, along with Schneider getting GMotY, for not only picking up Wilson in the 3rd round, but being willing to start and groom him as a rookie QB. That's the kind of surprise, out-of-nowhere type of coaching call that CotY should reward.

For this season, while Reid will almost assuredly win for the turnaround of KC, I'd be very tempted to give the award to Ron Rivera. The man has seemingly had an epiphany and drastically altered his approach to how he operates in-game. He used to be of the ultra-conservative, prevent D, punt on 4th down type of guys, and his team had suffered close losses repeatedly over the past several seasons because of it (they were something like 1-18 in games decided by a single score). After the Buffalo game when the Panthers started 0-2, something clicked in him, and he's been aggressive in scenarios where he used to follow traditional NFL wisdom (i.e., be super conservative). It's no coincidence that the Panthers have turned things around and are now one of the top teams in the NFC.

 

[Blaze]

as much as I love PC I voted no,

 

[TJH]

There is no MVP race. That award has already been won and it certainly isn't going to Wilson. Reid clearly gets the COY barring a total collapse. Their turnaround this year is astonishing.

 

[Hawkstorian]

Pete is deserving, but how can you argue against Andy Reid.

 

[seahawks08]

I thought the question was who I think should get the award, not who will get the award. I was speaking my mind when I felt Pete deserves it. He deserved it last year too but there are things we don't control. So all I want is for Seahawks to win the Superbowl

 

[DavidSeven]

For the record, I don't think Carroll deserves CotY this year. He's still not a top "in-game" coach

It's funny you say this in a post backing Andy Reid for CotY. Reid has long been considered one of the worst in-game managers in the NFL. His clock MIS-management has been a running joke for a solid decade now.

I've said this many times before: Carroll is one of the best in-game coaches in the NFL. Has Seattle ever seen a coach that was this good at halftime adjustments? No. We've seen comeback after comeback and haven't been successfully blown out in two years. Want to knock his clock management? We've killed it in 1-minute, 2-minute, and 4-minute situations this year. The decision to keep his D on the field in St. Louis? Brilliant. I don't care about his 4th down decisions (though I can't really think of any mistakes this year there either). That's a small sliver of what's happening during the course of a game.

 

[volsunghawk]

For the record, I don't think Carroll deserves CotY this year. He's still not a top "in-game" coach

It's funny you say this in a post backing Andy Reid for CotY. Reid has long been considered one of the worst in-game managers in the NFL. His clock MIS-management has been a running joke for a solid decade now.

I've said this many times before: Carroll is one of the best in-game coaches in the NFL. Has Seattle ever seen a coach that was this good at halftime adjustments? No. We've seen comeback after comeback and haven't been successfully blown out in two years. Want to knock his clock management? We've killed it in 1-minute, 2-minute, and 4-minute situations this year. The decision to keep his D on the field in St. Louis? Brilliant. I don't care about his 4th down decisions (though I can't really think of any mistakes this year there either). That's a small sliver of what's happening during the course of a game.

If you read my full post, I'm not actually backing Reid. I am, however, saying that his candidacy over Carroll's is better. Neither are top "in-game" coaches, imo, but Reid has done more this season than Carroll has. I'd say Carroll has done more than damn near any coach outside of SF since 2010, but this season, nah. It's the fallout of what an amazing job he did last season. 2011 laid a lot of the groundwork for what this Seahawks team would be, and 2012 was the transformative year. I still think Carroll deserved last year's award. But considering what he went into the offseason with and what he has now... it's not a significantly changed team, imo. And this award is almost always going to go to a guy who demonstrates a remarkable turnaround over a guy who demonstrates consistent improvement over time.

 

[volsunghawk]

Oh, on a side note, Don Shula has won the CotY award more than any other guy, winning it 4 times since it was established in 1957.

Tied for 2nd place are Bill Belichick and Chuck Knox, with 3 wins each.

And Knox's 3 wins all came with different teams (Rams, Bills, Seahawks).

Neat, huh?

 

[tubbs51]

Barring a collapse, Reid has this one in the bag. Right next to a ham sandwich.

This lmao

i just about fell out of my seat laughing.

But yeah it's Reid's to lose. And even if Reid and the Chiefs implode i think Ron Rivera will get it before Pete. Lord knows the NFL hates Seattle :/

 

[kearly]

DavidSeven mirrors my thoughts perfectly. Such a rarity to disagree with Volsung. I think the last time I disagreed with Volsung, Bush was president.

If we look at the Chiefs turnaround, there are several obvious reasons for it, and Reid is pretty far down the list.

-2012 was an outlier year for KC. They were 17-15 over the two seasons previous. They were completely obliterated by injuries (including Charles right off the bat) and sometimes fringe QBs on decimated teams spiral out of control, which is what happened to Cassel. I think if you simulate the 2012 season 100 times, there are maybe 1-2 scenarios where KC goes 2-14 that year. Very similar story to the 2011 Colts.

-The 2012 Seahawks were one of the 10 best teams since 1991 in DVOA, and they sent the same number of players to the pro-bowl that 2-14 KC did. Again, that 2-14 record did not indicate their talent level.

-Despite their perfect record, KC's DVOA paints the picture of a 10-6, or 11-5 team. Right now they have a 9-0 record but only 6.6 estimated wins, just barely ahead of teams like Cincinnati and Arizona. Estimated wins favors teams with easy schedules, too. And KC's has been one of the easiest to this point in a season ever.

-The biggest reason for KC's improvement is their defense, which is having one of the best seasons of all time. Andy Reid is an offensive mind not known in the slightest for his defensive acumen. Defense, btw, tends to vary wildly from year to year for many teams. Not long ago the Broncos went from worst to first to worst again during a 3 year stretch. There is a lot of talent on that defense, but given the extraordinary rise out of nowhere, it's reasonable to be suspicious that it's at least somewhat fluky.

-The next biggest reason is Alex Smith, who's game manager performances will win games with a historic defense. Even Alex Smith is a big upgrade over the year Matt Cassel had in 2012.

-Basically the best thing Reid has done was that he had the balls to trade for Alex Smith, which had that backfired, could have shortened his rope in KC. I'll give him credit for that. But otherwise, his team seems like a flash in the pan version of the 2000 Ravens. Historic defense, game manager QB, with Reid playing the role of Brian Billick (who was also an offensive minded coach that won despite his offense).

Pete should get the award. I think Belichick and Payton should be in the discussion as well. It would really be a shame if the award was stolen from deserving coaches once again just to reward an obvious flash in the pan outlier with a great story.

 

[hawk45]

I think Reid is a good coach getting the benefit of an outlier season, and that's why he'll win it, for the same reason Pagano won it. He is doing a good coaching job, similar to the way Harbaugh did a good coaching job his first year with a roster that had been underperforming.

Those are the coaching jobs that will net you COY. But if you ask me who I want rebuilding my franchise from the ground up, bucking current NFL trends, creating a dominant defense, and integrating later-round draft picks into a defense so that they play at an all-pro level, that is Pete all the way.

I think taking an underperforming team and immediately getting all of the potential there is a difficult coaching job. I think what Pete did is at the level of your Bill Walsh's (just in terms of pretty much inventing a new way to win on one side of the ball, not in terms of rings obviously).

 

[Seahawkfan80]

-The biggest reason for KC's improvement is their defense, which is having one of the best seasons of all time. Andy Reid is an offensive mind not known in the slightest for his defensive acumen. Defense, btw, tends to vary wildly from year to year for many teams. Not long ago the Broncos went from worst to first to worst again during a 3 year stretch. There is a lot of talent on that defense, but given the extraordinary rise out of nowhere, it's reasonable to be suspicious that it's at least somewhat fluky.

Did they change the D coordinator or beef more of the Defense? I do understand their schedule is a little bit weaker than most but still working hard at it. Of Course that is subjective depending on your own perceptions. I do agree that Alex Smith was a risk but with great risk can come great reward...as they have shown.

Go Hawks.

 

[mrinsatiable]

What he said...."wow".

You don't win COY for winning with a team that was expected to be great. You win it by doing more with less; by taking a team to a level of success that no one saw coming that season

...

Andy Reid already has this one locked up, no matter how the Chiefs finish the season. No team in the history of the major U.S. pro team sports has ever finished with the worst record in their league and then won their first 9 games the following season....which is even more incredible in the NFL given that 9 games is over half the season.

0 wins over winning teams. A roster full of pro-bowlers and high 1st round picks.

Context is key. You don't have to buy into the cliche sports narratives.

It's not cliche. It's how it works.

The Chiefs didn't set their schedule. Andy Reid is doing what his predecessor in KC was unable to do... win with that roster of pro-bowlers and high 1st round picks. Until Reid got there, those 1st round picks were starting to have the word "bust" tossed around with them.

The fact of the matter is that what Pete has done in Seattle is a full-fledged culture change, and that doesn't happen over a single season, which is why he's not going to be getting any CotY awards. What Reid is doing in KC is maximizing the talent he had on hand and avoiding the mistakes that tend to plague underachieving teams. It's not a culture change... it's more like Reid is bringing calm and focus to what was a chaotic situation. That may not be the top-to-bottom seismic shift that Carroll performed here in Seattle, but it's worth something - especially since the Chiefs are the last undefeated team in the league. It's no snub of Carroll to recognize that achievement... it's just giving credit where it's due.

Remember, what Carroll does rarely fits the NFL paradigm. In a passing league, he built a team that was centered around the run game. We had plenty of knowledgeable folks here worried about that run-heavy focus being outdated and incompatible with today's NFL. He brought in DBOUSs (defensive backs of unusual size), which seemed ludicrous to a bunch of folks (which is why they were available in Canada and late rounds in the draft). He went with an unproven rookie at QB over the guy to whom the team gave a sizable contract, again going against NFL convention. And his rebuild of the Seahawks - with the "can't work in the NFL" rah-rah style coaching, the music at practices, etc. - it's been done in a way that just doesn't fit in with how things are usually done in the NFL. And that's perfectly fine, because that's how visionaries/trendsetters operate. The Seahawks may not be up for a lot of awards at the end of the season, but they're among the teams with the best chance at bringing home the only one that matters.

For the record, I don't think Carroll deserves CotY this year. He's still not a top "in-game" coach, and I think that a lot of the drive and mentality that they can come back no matter what comes from Wilson and the rest of the team leaders (it may have started with Carroll, but I think it's pretty self-sustaining now). I do, however, believe that Carroll should have received CotY last season, along with Schneider getting GMotY, for not only picking up Wilson in the 3rd round, but being willing to start and groom him as a rookie QB. That's the kind of surprise, out-of-nowhere type of coaching call that CotY should reward.

For this season, while Reid will almost assuredly win for the turnaround of KC, I'd be very tempted to give the award to Ron Rivera. The man has seemingly had an epiphany and drastically altered his approach to how he operates in-game. He used to be of the ultra-conservative, prevent D, punt on 4th down type of guys, and his team had suffered close losses repeatedly over the past several seasons because of it (they were something like 1-18 in games decided by a single score). After the Buffalo game when the Panthers started 0-2, something clicked in him, and he's been aggressive in scenarios where he used to follow traditional NFL wisdom (i.e., be super conservative). It's no coincidence that the Panthers have turned things around and are now one of the top teams in the NFC.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

The Seahawks were a consensus top 2 team in everyone's pre-season NFL power rankings, and an odds-on Super Bowl favorite. You don't win COY for winning with a team that was expected to be great. You win it by doing more with less; by taking a team to a level of success that no one saw coming that season, just as Bruce Arians did with Indy last season. Pete doesn't have a chance in hell of winning COY, nor should he. Andy Reid already has this one locked up, no matter how the Chiefs finish the season. No team in the history of the major U.S. pro team sports has ever finished with the worst record in their league and then won their first 9 games the following season....which is even more incredible in the NFL given that 9 games is over half the season.

There is no way Pete gets the award. It's based on what he accomplishes THIS year. He gets zero points for philosophy or for anything he accomplished last year. Last year he had a chance, but was out-gunned by a success story against cancer followed by a winning season after sucking for Luck.

The Hawks did really well and finished strong last year, and they are EXPECTED to do even better this year, so it's not like something miraculous is happening. Pete's really not in the running if he didn't turn a losing team into a winner in a one-year time span.

I guess he'd have a chance if they had a "Coach of the Previous Year" award.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

Pete is deserving, but how can you argue against Andy Reid.

Some in here seem to think that the award is based on methods and who you inherited rather than results.

 

[horns_n_hawks]

Even if KC loses two games; to go from 2-14 to 14-2, will usually get you coach of the year. IMHO.

I think this exactly. PC has been building this team for years, while Reed walked in and turned a basement dweller team into one of the best teams in the NFL. Say what you want about their schedule, etc. They went to the playoffs once in the last 5 years, and we all know winning week in and week out in the NFL is insanely difficult. I think PC has more than proved his worth as a coach, as has Payton (look at the train wreck they were without him for a year) but that kinda turnaround is always going deserve coach of the year.

Funny that it's such a big year for coaching, all 3 of these guys would have ran away with it most years IMO

 

[Teqneek]

You don't win COY for winning with a team that was expected to be great. You win it by doing more with less; by taking a team to a level of success that no one saw coming that season

...

Andy Reid already has this one locked up, no matter how the Chiefs finish the season. No team in the history of the major U.S. pro team sports has ever finished with the worst record in their league and then won their first 9 games the following season....which is even more incredible in the NFL given that 9 games is over half the season.

0 wins over winning teams. A roster full of pro-bowlers and high 1st round picks.

Context is key. You don't have to buy into the cliche sports narratives.

It's not cliche. It's how it works.

The Chiefs didn't set their schedule. Andy Reid is doing what his predecessor in KC was unable to do... win with that roster of pro-bowlers and high 1st round picks. Until Reid got there, those 1st round picks were starting to have the word "bust" tossed around with them.

The fact of the matter is that what Pete has done in Seattle is a full-fledged culture change, and that doesn't happen over a single season, which is why he's not going to be getting any CotY awards. What Reid is doing in KC is maximizing the talent he had on hand and avoiding the mistakes that tend to plague underachieving teams. It's not a culture change... it's more like Reid is bringing calm and focus to what was a chaotic situation. That may not be the top-to-bottom seismic shift that Carroll performed here in Seattle, but it's worth something - especially since the Chiefs are the last undefeated team in the league. It's no snub of Carroll to recognize that achievement... it's just giving credit where it's due.

Remember, what Carroll does rarely fits the NFL paradigm. In a passing league, he built a team that was centered around the run game. We had plenty of knowledgeable folks here worried about that run-heavy focus being outdated and incompatible with today's NFL. He brought in DBOUSs (defensive backs of unusual size), which seemed ludicrous to a bunch of folks (which is why they were available in Canada and late rounds in the draft). He went with an unproven rookie at QB over the guy to whom the team gave a sizable contract, again going against NFL convention. And his rebuild of the Seahawks - with the "can't work in the NFL" rah-rah style coaching, the music at practices, etc. - it's been done in a way that just doesn't fit in with how things are usually done in the NFL. And that's perfectly fine, because that's how visionaries/trendsetters operate. The Seahawks may not be up for a lot of awards at the end of the season, but they're among the teams with the best chance at bringing home the only one that matters.

For the record, I don't think Carroll deserves CotY this year. He's still not a top "in-game" coach, and I think that a lot of the drive and mentality that they can come back no matter what comes from Wilson and the rest of the team leaders (it may have started with Carroll, but I think it's pretty self-sustaining now). I do, however, believe that Carroll should have received CotY last season, along with Schneider getting GMotY, for not only picking up Wilson in the 3rd round, but being willing to start and groom him as a rookie QB. That's the kind of surprise, out-of-nowhere type of coaching call that CotY should reward.

For this season, while Reid will almost assuredly win for the turnaround of KC, I'd be very tempted to give the award to Ron Rivera. The man has seemingly had an epiphany and drastically altered his approach to how he operates in-game. He used to be of the ultra-conservative, prevent D, punt on 4th down type of guys, and his team had suffered close losses repeatedly over the past several seasons because of it (they were something like 1-18 in games decided by a single score). After the Buffalo game when the Panthers started 0-2, something clicked in him, and he's been aggressive in scenarios where he used to follow traditional NFL wisdom (i.e., be super conservative). It's no coincidence that the Panthers have turned things around and are now one of the top teams in the NFC.

Dont get the logic.. never will, you have fun with that. Because a team a prior year managed to completely tank the season due to injuries a different QB and a much more difficult schedule, the past regime gets a awful season and got a plush schedule.. with.. as youve already said.. a group of 1st rounders and Pro bowlers. He's amazing because he's 9-0 against sub 500 teams with talent that should be doing 6 to 7 wins even with a pee wee coach? Hrm.. Ok

Unfortunately, to many writers who vote are like this.. they are void of all logical assessment. Numbers numbers numbers.. Those things are pretty to you guys.


I dont believe Pete deserves it.. but I think its even more idiotic to think Reid does

 

[Lords of Scythia]

Barring a collapse, Reid has this one in the bag. Right next to a ham sandwich.

And fluffernutters.