Percy Harvin vs. Cordarrelle Patterson

[dumbrabbit]

I don't think non-seahawks fans are aware that this is a Seahawks forum. They all must be butthurt that their FO doesn't scout better than the Hawks do.

 

[cacksman]

I gotta say....I don't like Patterson. Even with the injury, I'd take Harvin.

IMHO, Patterson will bust in a big way.

I was never a fan of the Harvin deal (gave up to much), but if that player they lost was Patterson, I'd feel much better about the deal.

I think those predicting a bust will be greatly disappointed. The word from camp continues to sound very good. He also is demonstrating a great work ethic and, according to the coaches, is very coachable.

Here is the opening kickoff for CP
http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/...f-Return/6ed3f01a-661f-4c1c-968d-70ccd30a5f43

I would say billed as advertised.

Also 4 rec 54 yards in 1 1/2 quarters of play. I think those predicting bust will be wrong. He was also interferred with on a pass that resulted in an incompletion (uncalled).

Note for those in a keeper league that also rewards for return yardage. Pick him up.

Wow, I'm a lot less impressed with that return than I thought I'd be. Anyone with above average speed would have taken that to midfield.

 

[TheGrandViking]

I don't think non-seahawks fans are aware that this is a Seahawks forum. They all must be butthurt that their FO doesn't scout better than the Hawks do.

The original post is seahawk centric because it deals with a what if question (what if the seahawks didn't make the trade and picked CP instead). However, this is great opening for a vikings fan(s) because we have seen Harvin's every play (die hard fans at least) and we picked Patterson (but not with the traded pick). CP will be plugged right into the same offense and will play a similar position (looks like he will play more on the outside than in the slot), so vikings fans will get a front row seat, so to speak. I'm not sure why the animosity because I like it when we get another player from another team and a fan(s) appear and discuss that player. I guess maybe i'm unusual in that respect.

Any Vikings fan that feels butt hurt, as you call it, lacks perspective. I've seen many fans jokingly refer to the seahawks as "Vikings West" because of the former players on the squad. I have read a few Vikings fans expressing some animosity towards the seahawks but they are a small minority. But, I think Vikings fans should actually feel thankful when you look at the interaction between the clubs that last few years.

I think the Seahawks have done a great job drafting under their GM. I also think, once Spielman was named and got full control of the GM position, he has had some solid/excellent drafts.

 

[ivotuk]

That return was all blocking and he got taken down by the kicker...

Watching Tennesse games on tv last winter, I was disappointed in Patterson's casualness about the game. He would "saunter" back to the huddle and never seemed to go all out. He has the talent, he just needs the fire. I could see him having a randy moss like career but it's all up to him.

 

[TheGrandViking]

That return was all blocking and he got taken down by the kicker...

Watching Tennesse games on tv last winter, I was disappointed in Patterson's casualness about the game. He would "saunter" back to the huddle and never seemed to go all out. He has the talent, he just needs the fire. I could see him having a randy moss like career but it's all up to him.

I agree. However, it does seem the good/great returners make it look easy. Harvins kickoff return TD vs. the Lions last year was mainly blocking and flaw found in their kicking coverage the special teams worked on exposing before the game.

Just came across this:

The Minnesota Vikings 2013 training camp came to a close with probably the two best catches of the entire program.

Receiver Cordarrelle Patterson stuck his left arm out and around cornerback A.J. Jefferson as he was 30 yards downfield, snagging a one-handed grab from backup quarterback Matt Cassel. Jefferson was in position, but was bested.

"Man, them one-handed catches don't mean anything," Patterson said. "One-handed catch is like a two-handed catch as long as you catch the ball."
********************************************************************
The comparison between the two will be very interesting. Patterson might excede him year one by merely being available. He still has alot to go and probably will only see limited action his first 4-6 games.

 

[13thMan]

I personally thought we mortgaged the farm for Harvin. I wasn't sold on the move even assuming he would be on the field.... Now? Yeah, I would rather have CP at this point. We would be in the same position we are now (if not better) for far less picks and far less money. I hate to say I told you so but..... just my .02.....

 

[-The Glove-]

I personally thought we mortgaged the farm for Harvin. I wasn't sold on the move even assuming he would be on the field.... Now? Yeah, I would rather have CP at this point. We would be in the same position we are now (if not better) for far less picks and far less money. I hate to say I told you so but..... just my .02.....

Yup...you really told us.

 

[FlyingGreg]

I gotta say....I don't like Patterson. Even with the injury, I'd take Harvin.

IMHO, Patterson will bust in a big way.

I was never a fan of the Harvin deal (gave up to much), but if that player they lost was Patterson, I'd feel much better about the deal.

I think those predicting a bust will be greatly disappointed. The word from camp continues to sound very good. He also is demonstrating a great work ethic and, according to the coaches, is very coachable.

Here is the opening kickoff for CP
http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/...f-Return/6ed3f01a-661f-4c1c-968d-70ccd30a5f43

I would say billed as advertised.

Also 4 rec 54 yards in 1 1/2 quarters of play. I think those predicting bust will be wrong. He was also interferred with on a pass that resulted in an incompletion (uncalled).

Note for those in a keeper league that also rewards for return yardage. Pick him up.

Please stop with the "word from camp" stuff like that means anything. Everyone looks great in camp, and this time of year all 32 teams are optimistic and everything is just dandy.

Get back to us later this season when it matters.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I personally thought we mortgaged the farm for Harvin. I wasn't sold on the move even assuming he would be on the field.... Now? Yeah, I would rather have CP at this point. We would be in the same position we are now (if not better) for far less picks and far less money. I hate to say I told you so but..... just my .02.....

Saying things like this is exactly like people last year at this time saying Flynn was the best QB on the team and should be handed the job. Or after the first game of the season "Wilson is the worst QB I've ever seen". You don't have to say "I told you so" because it is ridiculous to believe you have been proven right. The future has not yet happened and in order to truly gauge whether the Harvin trade was worth it is to wait about 3 years and do a retrospective.

I find it bizarre that a lot of people seem to repeat the same mistakes every year. 2 offseasons ago everyone had declared Okung a bust. You'd think it obvious at this point that you have to give it time to develop an informed opinion.

 

[13thMan]

Understood..... but what I AM saying is simply, AT THIS MOMENT, CLEARLY, CP would've been the better move... as of right now. Simple. Could that change? Sure.... but as of right now, we've been hoodwinked by an overpaid wideout that we had to send a myriad of picks to Minnesota for... that is not disputable.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Uh... it's INCREDIBLY disputable, that's kind of the point. As of "right now" we have an injured pro-bowl veteran and an unestablished rookie in week 2 of the preseason. There is no way to draw a line in the sand right now.

 

[13thMan]

Incredibly disputable? Ok, fine... Is it "incredibly disputable" that the potential production TODAY of a healthy CP for pennies on the dollar plus 3 pics is somehow inferior to a gimpy WR that we sent the farm and broke the bank for? I don't think so.... Further, it's not like this is some kind of "shock", one-off, anomaly considering Harvin's history... this is just par for the course... So am I so out of line for "wishing" we had gone another route? I don't think so... not by any stretch of the imagination. But, regardless, we made our bed and all I can do is hope for some kind of ROI...

 

[-The Glove-]

Incredibly disputable? Ok, fine... Is it "incredibly disputable" that the potential production TODAY of a healthy CP for pennies on the dollar plus 3 pics is somehow inferior to a gimpy WR that we sent the farm and broke the bank for? I don't think so.... Further, it's not like this is some kind of "shock", one-off, anomaly considering Harvin's history... this is just par for the course... So am I so out of line for "wishing" we had gone another route? I don't think so... not by any stretch of the imagination. But, regardless, we made our bed and all I can do is hope for some kind of ROI...

Quit exaggerating..."sent the farm" and "broke the bank"? We did neither.

 

[13thMan]

Really? Harvin is the highest paid player on the team.... That should bode well when our own guys come up for renewal.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

At this point, it's really impossible to even begin to judge this deal. Obviously, Harvin is a special talent.

But we don't know the total cost of this deal either. Outside of the draft picks, Harvin's deal is going to force us to cut ties with players we might otherwise keep when cap space becomes an issue in 2014 and 2015. From a simple math standpoint, we are paying Harvin about 9M a year more than a first round pick would have been. That 9M is going to have to be recovered in order to pay the likes of Thomas and Richard.

In addition, the precedent is now set. Guys like Tate who will be UFA next season is going to want a hefty raise. I'd say the Harvin deal kills any ability to get some type of hometown discount. It's entirely conceivable that we won't be able to resign him, and Harvin's contract is going to be the immediate cause for being unable to do so. If that should happen, then you may as well frame the trade as our first rounder this year, next year's third rounder and Tate. And that price could expand every year as other players added in 2011-12 come up for renewal and we don't have cap space to accomodate them.

The contract is going to force us to let guys walk. That's a cost we don't incur if we stuck with our first round pick and didn't trade for him.

Likewise, we don't know what the value of Harvin will bring and that won't be known until probably the end of next year. However if Harvin does come back and that infusion of ability allows us to go deep into the playoffs and maybe make a super bowl appearance, then I'd say it was well worth it.

It's a home run swing kind of deal. It's not the kind of opportunity that comes along very often. We just can't know the benefits and costs yet. So making a judgement now is just horribly premature.

 

[13thMan]

At this point, it's really impossible to even begin to judge this deal. Obviously, Harvin is a special talent.

But we don't know the total cost of this deal either. Outside of the draft picks, Harvin's deal is going to force us to cut ties with players we might otherwise keep when cap space becomes an issue in 2014 and 2015. From a simple math standpoint, we are paying Harvin about 9M a year more than a first round pick would have been. That 9M is going to have to be recovered in order to pay the likes of Thomas and Richard.

In addition, the precedent is now set. Guys like Tate who will be UFA next season is going to want a hefty raise. I'd say the Harvin deal kills any ability to get some type of hometown discount. It's entirely conceivable that we won't be able to resign him, and Harvin's contract is going to be the immediate cause for being unable to do so. If that should happen, then you may as well frame the trade as our first rounder this year, next year's third rounder and Tate. And that price could expand every year as other players added in 2011-12 come up for renewal and we don't have cap space to accomodate them.

The contract is going to force us to let guys walk. That's a cost we don't incur if we stuck with our first round pick and didn't trade for him.

Likewise, we don't know what the value of Harvin will bring and that won't be known until probably the end of next year. However if Harvin does come back and that infusion of ability allows us to go deep into the playoffs and maybe make a super bowl appearance, then I'd say it was well worth it.

It's a home run swing kind of deal. It's not the kind of opportunity that comes along very often. We just can't know the benefits and costs yet. So making a judgement now is just horribly premature.

I admire your insight... this is a clearly a well thought out post, and a breath of fresh air... You have enabled me to articulate my position more concisely which is to say... the Harvin deal was a very high risk, high reward deal... It was a win now or "Oh S--t" move IMO.... and given the fact that he won't be on the field for some time, I just feel as though the gamble is a losing proposition for the time being... Now, of course, if he is the catalyst to our first Lombardi, I will be back shoveling down the crow like nobody's business.... If not, however, I will be left to question the move indefinitely. And as you have so eloquently pointed out (better than I could've ever hoped to on my own), this has the potential to severely hamper our ability to sign any of our home grown players at a discount... As a matter of fact, I think it will have the opposite effect (hopefully I'm wrong), but... If I was drafted here and I'm back at the bargaining table, the first words out of my agent's mount are going to be, "So let's see, you paid Percy X dollars and got Y production, so I feel like my client is worth nothing short of Z....."

Bottom line... if Harvin pans out, who gives a crap as we are probably hoisting a trophy. But if not? It could spell apocalypse for a franchise that was just getting started...

Time will tell.

Again though, I do admire your articulate post... nicely done.

 

[Stoned Cold]

As an SEC fan I can say I liked the kid. He's got some of the greatest angular speed of ALL TIME. Yes, ALL TIME. He runs at angles faster than anyone I've seen in a long time. He runs at angles at full speed. It's something special to watch.

He's tall but not a physical fighter. Not a jump baller like Sidney Rice yet, but he's shown flashes.

And he's been know to disappear at times.

And can be a dynamic returner.

That said he is raw. JC transfer who played against the best conference foes and got much better. What held him back was his questionable hands and disappearing acts. He had a good QB at Tennessee but was kind of the #2.

I said last off season we needed a guy like this or a Percy Harvin to add to our offense. To make us more dynamic.

I don't want anyone's nod of approval around here. I was proven right by the Harvin trade. I'm pretty sure the Seahawks liked Patterson but felt he wouldn't fall that far to us. Kudos to the Vikings for snatching him up that late.

This is what I said December 21st

And yes I am SEC FAN

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=59893&p=799455#p799455

I think I talked about Patterson going pro with kearly. I guess the stuff I heard was true. I think Patterson could be a nice sleeper late 1st for us but what do I know? I know many have him as a top 5 draft pick talent if he stayed at Tennessee. If you are interested in Patterson I will tell you this....he has the best 45 degree angle/lateral movement I have ever seen and I don't say that lightly, he goes in those directions faster than anyone I have seen before, almost like he keeps going full speed and he never lost momentum. I have been watching football for almost 30 years and this guy has some kind of super speed when he goes at angles. He has the size Schnieder likes too. And he is a jump ball guy like Schnieder seems to covet. Injury and immaturity is a concern. He is the kind of guy you would consider cutting Leon Washington for. Start him off as a return guy like Percy Harvin and work him into the offense. No matter what he helps you out in field position. And if you did cut Leon for him you'd probably save 2.5 million if my memory is correct on Leons salary.

................................................................................................

The more I watch of Cordarrelle Patterson, the more I love him. Yes he is raw but he could be immediate impact. With his size and ability he could get off the line and his amazing quickness at 45 degrees he could eat teams up on a quick slant. You add in his return abilities and he's playing day one. Imagine him and Sidney Rice's size out wide (both 6'3 +). Tate and Baldwin in the slot. Miller and McCoy as TE targets. We all know how Wilson likes to throw it up and let his wides make a play deep. And I think Patterson may be just sitting there ready to be had late first. Getting a Julio Jones/Percy Harvin type is such a value pick. Okay I'm done lol. He'll probably get drafted right before us anyway.

Unlike some who say "I told you so". I did say this 9 months ago and 4 months before the draft.

And for those who want to talk hindsight. Consider this... Leons 2.5 million contract and Percy Harvins 11+ million contract. Patterson is less than 2 million a season. 11.5 million is a big deal. Pretty much what Richard Sherman will get.

Go ahead and ban this name too. People hate it when I speak the truth.

 

[pinksheets]

There are multiple other receivers in this draft drafted AFTER Patterson I'd have taken with our pick instead of him had we kept it. That team is a rebuild that seems to have no idea it's not a legitimate contender.

 

[Throwdown]

If it weren't for AP, the Vikings would be in the running for Teddy Bridgewater, for realz.

 

[TheGrandViking]

Thanks for allowing me on your message board hawks fans (vikings fan if didn't notice the nic).y

Fun debate here:

I will start with my observation of Percy Harvins Positives.
PRO:
-elite short area burst
-excellent short to medium receiver.
-good at finding spots in the zone.
-great core strength that prevents him from going down easily.
-great vision
-good at splitting defenders
-great with the ball in hands anywhere on the field.
-always fighting for the extra yard.
-able to change directions at speed.
-hard worker
-practices hard
-makes quick decisions.

Cons
-sometimes body catches the ball
-doesn't extend his arms when catching the balls
-struggles on adjusting to the football when a throw has a lot of "air" (you won't find this on utube).
-doesn't get the seperation you expect when going deep.
-does a funky basked catch on lower side balls (it looks like a High schooler when doing this).
-tends to get frustrated when not enough action comes his way
-doesn't win when fighting with CB for ball.
-drugs-suspended for a game in 2008 and tested positive at the combine.
-emotional control- junior in high school suspended for a game after getting into it with a player that was looking at him wrong. Physical contact with a ref his senior year resulting in suspension for the rest of the sporting year. Tried to choke (or sprewell) his WR coach in college that required two coaches to get him off. Threw 10 pound weight at Childress who shut weight room door avoiding getting hit. Tirade against Childress in practice. Tirade against Frazier against Seattle. tirade against Frazier in practice . (Frazier is often regarded by players and the press as the nicest guy in football)

When watching high lights of CP i am reminded of Harvin alot. However, Harvin had more polish as a route runner. CP doesn't always extend his hands out to catch the ball and let's it get in on his body. Harvin does this sometimes but not as often as CP. CP, like Harvin, can cut at speed. However, CPs cuts are more drastic and is far more willing to run east west. Almost too much. I wish Harvin would do a little more east west running and CP a little less. I also think CP adjust to deep ball better than HP does.

One of my biggest concearns with Harvin, other than the behavior and drug issues, is the contact issue. As much as I enjoy his fearless play, I would prefer to see him take less hits. As i menetioned in the cons, Harvin missed more game times than his player stats indicate. There were many times where he missed a quarter after a bruising collision. I could live with a couple yards less but being available vs. his disregard for his health. I would prefer that he would show more control and do it when it mattered most in the game or possibly save it for the playoffs. Trust me on this, many of the hawks fans will come to the same conclusion. Yes, we do have AD who lead the league with an amazing 1019 yards after contact-300 to 400 more yards than the nearest competitor. Maybe being away from the league leader in yards after contact will tamper his drive to seek contact.

I do not think that CP will be a bust. Because at the very least, he will be a top returner and run the gadget plays (short screens, reverses, and handoffs). Second, if you watch the highlights of CP, you will notice that many of the very same plays that Harvin ran under musgrave, the TNV ran. So the Percy Package will become the Patterson package (keep your minds out of the gutter). So, CP will be productive but it comes down to the how much. when players can change direction at speed, thy have a high degree of success at the pro level IMOP

BTW, initial reports out of our OTAs gave very positive reviews about CP. The coaches said he was farther along then they initially thought he would be and Jennings said he was impressed with CPs ability to create seperation.

I think, when you look at both are teams, that this could be a win win situation. The hawks fans feel he might be the final piece for a SB run that begins now and the vikings, despite going 10-6, are replenishing the roster and in a more building mode not a tweeking one.

It will be an interesting comparison thoghout the years. But the guy you guys need to worry about is Tavon Austin. He is on another level. However, his avoidance of hits is to the point of giving up 5-10 yards in an effort to go out of bounce. I expect a lot of trash talk from seattle about this aspect of tavon's play.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/55356/sport-science-cordarrelle-patterson

Congrats on your superbowl win. I've checked back in her a couple of times as a lurker and noticed the same type of threads about Harvin that fellow Viking fans had.

Do you think I nailed this thread or was i off?