Offensive Coordinator replacement for 2016

[DavidSeven]

Sherman got assigned to AJ Green because Green was torching Cary Williams on simple go-routes, not because they were confusing us. That was a talent-based decision, not a scheme-based one.

On both Eifert TDs, Kam did his job. The deep coverage (likely Cary Williams again) failed to pick up the TE in their zone.

I would love to see what this offense would look like with AJ Green, Tyler Eifert, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Gio Bernard, and, hell, 2015 Dalton at QB. I bet it looks a lot different.

Pointed this out several times, but watch the Eifert catch at the SEA 20 -- biggest catch of the game. Every route is covered and our pass rush is getting home. The only difference between this play and the play we failed on to end the game is that the QB got the ball out and a blanketed receiver made a play. There was absolutely nothing fancy about it. No convoluted route concepts, no screens, no picks. Simply a ball thrown and caught.

 

[kearly]

Sherman got assigned to AJ Green because Green was torching Cary Williams on simple go-routes, not because they were confusing us. That was a talent-based decision, not a scheme-based one.

On both Eifert TDs, Kam did his job. The deep coverage (likely Cary Williams again) failed to pick up the TE in their zone.

I would love to see what this offense would look like with AJ Green, Tyler Eifert, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Gio Bernard, and, hell, 2015 Dalton at QB. I bet it looks a lot different.

Pointed this out several times, but watch the Eifert catch at the SEA 20 -- biggest catch of the game. Every route is covered and our pass rush is getting home. The only difference between this play and the play we failed on to end the game is that the QB got the ball out and a blanketed receiver made a play. There was absolutely nothing fancy about it. No convoluted route concepts, no screens, no picks. Simply a ball thrown and caught.

Nobody is arguing that execution doesn't matter, rather they are arguing that execution can't be an excuse for everything especially with talents like Lynch, Wilson, Baldwin, Lockett, and Graham on the offense.

It also feels that defensive coordinators feel more prepared for Bevell than the other way around most games, IMO.

Also, I don't blame Kam for either of those TDs, but I agree with Hasselbeck that Kam did looked confused on a few plays. Overall the defense played really well though, and I'm pissed that anyone could put this loss on the D when the offense went punt-punt-punt-punt-punt-punt with just 2 total first downs in the 4th quarter and OT when even an 8 play drive might have salted the game away.

 

[DavidSeven]

Or having Jimmy Graham pass blocking on a crucial 3rd and 4 to put the game away?

This illustrates my point, though. If you watch the full coach's copy, you can see Graham was originally lined up in the slot. Russell calls an audible and gestures to Graham to have him move inline and pass block. Why did he make that decision? I'm not sure. Maybe he had a good reason, but there is no way to know that was Bevell's call. Based on the footage, it looks pretty clear that Russell audibled out of the original formation.

However, once someone points out that "Jimmy was pass blocking on 3rd down", it gets picked up by the entire forum and we all scapegoat the playcaller. Watching what actually happened on that play reveals something different.

So what about all the other times Jimmy Graham is pass blocking on 3rd downs? I've seen it several times this season. The simple fact is that Seattle traded for Jimmy Graham only to use him like Zach Miller. I liked the Graham trade because I thought even Bevell wouldn't be that dumb, but I was wrong.

The number of actual plays that he is pass blocking versus running routes is not that different than what he was doing in New Orleans, though. If there are numbers that suggest differently, I am more than willing to change my tune on that. We're ultimately talking about a handful of plays here.

That said, is he an ideal fit as an inline TE in this offense? No. But I've been saying that for a while. Is he a good fit for a permanent slot or split-end receiver? Again, my opinion on that, based on how our QB likes to throw, is no. He can't scramble nor challenge the defense vertically.

I hope this acquisition ends up working out, but I've been among the biggest skeptics since the day it was announced.

 

[Sarlacc83]

Or having Jimmy Graham pass blocking on a crucial 3rd and 4 to put the game away?

This illustrates my point, though. If you watch the full coach's copy, you can see Graham was originally lined up in the slot. Russell calls an audible and gestures to Graham to have him move inline and pass block. Why did he make that decision? I'm not sure. Maybe he had a good reason, but there is no way to know that was Bevell's call. Based on the footage, it looks pretty clear that Russell audibled out of the original formation.

However, once someone points out that "Jimmy was pass blocking on 3rd down", it gets picked up by the entire forum and we all scapegoat the playcaller. Watching what actually happened on that play reveals something different.

Fair enough, but I've seen Jimmy Graham pass blocking on 3rd downs several times this year. The simple fact is that Seattle traded for Jimmy Graham only to use him like Zach Miller. I liked the Graham trade because I thought even Bevell wouldn't be that dumb, but I was wrong.

Everyone assumes it's Bevell who wants to use Graham in the way they are. Yet, it could just as easily be Pete who wants to change Graham to a "full" TE just to prove he can do it. And if Pete doesn't want Graham in-line he has the final say-so - which lends credence to the decision being his.

 

[kearly]

The number of actual plays that he is pass blocking versus running routes is not that different than what he was doing in New Orleans, though. If there are numbers that suggest differently, I am more than willing to change my tune on that. We're ultimately talking about a handful of plays here.

That said, is he an ideal fit as an inline TE in this offense? No. But I've been saying that for a while. Is he a good fit for a permanent slot or split-end receiver? Again, my opinion on that, based on how our QB likes to throw, is no. He can't scramble nor challenge the defense vertically.

I hope this acquisition ends up working out, but I've been among the biggest skeptics since the day it was announced.

It's more than blocking usage, it's routes and targets. I don't care what the blocking numbers say, he is not being used like he was in New Orleans.

As said, I liked the Graham trade because I thought Bevell and Pete would bend things and adapt for him. Maybe they still will, but they haven't yet. This surprised me because Bevell and Pete made major concessions on offense to adapt for Wilson, Lynch, and even Harvin, but haven't done the same for Graham. I thought for sure they would because only an idiot would trade for Graham and use him in a JAG kind of role. But it's still early, maybe I am being too impatient. Still, it pisses me off, especially with Miller being released and not replaced with like kind.

As far as blocking goes, don't get me wrong, I am okay with Graham pass blocking if it's part of a max protect 7 pass blocker situation with a bunch of receivers going deep on 1st or 2nd down (he's probably our best pass blocking TE, sadly enough). But on 3rd and manageable he should be running a route every single time, and if he's 1 on 1 the ball needs to be going to him more than occasionally.

 

[kearly]

Everyone assumes it's Bevell who wants to use Graham in the way they are. Yet, it could just as easily be Pete who wants to change Graham to a "full" TE just to prove he can do it. And if Pete doesn't want Graham in-line he has the final say-so - which lends credence to the decision being his.

I've always gotten the impression from Pete that he lets his OC run the offense, based on the fact that the offense changed so distinctly from Bates to Bevell. I think he also lets the DC run things more than most of us here give credit for, because to anyone paying attention you could feel a significant change in the defense's style and tendencies from Bradley to Quinn to Richard.

That said I do agree that Pete could very well be contributing to the problem. After all, he loves simplicity and he was the impetus for the Harvin trade, which was the epitome of pounding a square peg into a round hole. That he's tolerated Bevell this long either implies incompetence or endorsement, and the second option strikes me as being far more likely. That's why I think Bevell is here for the long haul, unfortunately.

 

[DavidSeven]

Don't get me wrong, I am okay with Graham pass blocking if it's part of a max protect 7 pass blocker situation with a bunch of receivers going deep on 1st or 2nd down. But on 3rd and manageable he should be running a route every single time, and if he's 1 on 1 the ball needs to be going to him more than occasionally.

Completely agree. But again, how can we say how much of that is on Bevell and how much is on Russell? There are plays that are clearly designed to go to him, but for whatever reason, the ball doesn't come out.

I think Pete said on his Monday morning show that Russell missed Graham on two late third downs. And on another key 3rd down, Russ clearly audibles for Graham to protect.

 

[kearly]

Don't get me wrong, I am okay with Graham pass blocking if it's part of a max protect 7 pass blocker situation with a bunch of receivers going deep on 1st or 2nd down. But on 3rd and manageable he should be running a route every single time, and if he's 1 on 1 the ball needs to be going to him more than occasionally.

Completely agree. But again, how can we say how much of that is on Bevell and how much is on Russell? There are plays that are clearly designed to go to him, but for whatever reason, the ball doesn't come out.

I think Pete said on his Monday morning show that Russell missed Graham on two late third downs. And on another key 3rd down, Russ clearly audibles for Graham to protect.

Some of it is on Russ. When he audibles Graham into 3rd and 4 pass protection. Some of it is on Bevell. For all the other times it happens. I think it's worthy of criticism for both. Sometimes it's a matter of the defense taking it away. But absolving Bevell of his responsibility rings hollow to me.

The fact that Pete has to make excuses and explanations almost every week is telling.

In fairness to you, I think Russell is one of the most challenging QBs in the league to design around. I do not blame EVERYTHING on Bevell. That said, I think Bevell does suffer from being way less smart than he thinks he is as evidenced by all the stuff he does that is supposed to look smart but is rarely football smart. I used to be a Bevell supporter but the more I learn about the game the more I see Bevell as a hindrance. Again, I don't blame everything on him across the board, but I do think that the fingerprints he leaves on the offense are shit-stained ones. I would love to see Seattle try another OC and see how that guy does with Russell's development. I don't think it could be much worse, but there's a chance it could be much better.

The frustration we've felt on offense isn't just going away if we get even better players or if those players start executing better. Or maybe it will, but it will be an off year kind of thing, like Jeff Fisher making the playoffs. Blaming the players for not playing up to the game plan is what Jim Mora did. I want an OC who creates quality, not an OC who depends on his players to make him look good. And after four years I'm totally convinced that Bevell is the same guy now that he'll always be and as long as he's here, the offense will frustrate us.

(And FWIW, I am also frustrated with Cable, but I'm still in wait-and-see mode with him a bit. I think if Pete was as good at hiring offensive coaches as he was defensive coaches the Seahawks would be football gods.)

 

[kf3339]

Everyone assumes it's Bevell who wants to use Graham in the way they are. Yet, it could just as easily be Pete who wants to change Graham to a "full" TE just to prove he can do it. And if Pete doesn't want Graham in-line he has the final say-so - which lends credence to the decision being his.

I've always gotten the impression from Pete that he lets his OC run the offense, based on the fact that the offense changed so distinctly from Bates to Bevell. I think he also lets the DC run things more than most of us here give credit for, because to anyone paying attention you could feel a significant change in the defense's style and tendencies from Bradley to Quinn to Richard.

That said I do agree that Pete could very well be contributing to the problem. After all, he loves simplicity and he was the impetus for the Harvin trade, which was the epitome of pounding a square peg into a round hole. That he's tolerated Bevell this long either implies incompetence or endorsement, and the second option strikes me as being far more likely. That's why I think Bevell is here for the long haul, unfortunately.

I hope you are wrong about Bevell because I can't stomach much more of his mediocre play calling.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I am not clear the objective some have in defending Bevell.

There is nothing to defend, this year his results are terrible. To me, it is an intent to tug at an emotional string.

Personally, not trying to insult Sioux, but I do not think the poster has the capacity to make an assessment. I could not tell you the reason why, whether lack of acumen, intelligence, a need for emotional response, some emotional tie to Bevell or even a personal connection that to Bevell that is not disclosed - there is too much defense of the non-defensible there. So either the inability to acknowledge Bevell's failures is willful, or there is something preventing it - either way it removes any reason to acknowledge the defenses.

But I think most are clear that defending repeated weaknesses and issues damages credibility.

The biggest problem I have with Bevell is not that he is just not exceptional if not below average, but that he refuses to acknowledge where he fails or falls short. It is also the reason I am certain he will never be an effective head coach unless he changes that.

Good leaders admit their failures and learn from them, and they credit their successes to those that helped make them possible. You notice Pete does that? He credits his assistants and players for his successes and when his team fails? He takes ownership of that failure, and then looks to improve on that missed step.

Bevell is reminds me of a less noxious Ty Willingham in that he is quick to blame others, shirks responsibility, hides from people want to hold him accountable, but is all too eager to jump on the stage or stand on the table and claim responsibility for success - often when he has contributed little to it.

Even worse, he isn't even an exceptional expert as far as subject matter. He just hitched himself to the right wagon (which I suppose you COULD call a skill but still...).

That is not to say he cannot fix those shortcomings but to do so he has to admit to them before he can work on fixing them. However, it is clear that Bevell with THIS group of personnel* is a liability, not a benefit.


*Yes the personnel group is challenging (OL, scrambling QB, etc.) but there are coordinators that could do a better job. And if you want to give Bevell credit for the rushing game you have to blame him for the passing - either way, the measuring stick is scoring and his offenses are not getting it done.

 

[mrt144]

So you have never watched a game and thought there were bad calls by the OC? Because it is impossible to know? Gregg Knapp was good and just had bad players?

Those questions are hyperbole, I am guessing you have had some OC's you watch and wonder what they were thinking.

I do slip into this mode of thinking on occasion, but 9 times out of 10, I am more likely to wonder why a QB made a bad decision, why an o-lineman keeps losing his matchup, why a receiver can't threaten a defense, etc. I think you can really only judge an OC on the body of work, because no one knows where any specific play call came from, whether it was an audible or came from the head coach or a position coach. Hell, Mike Holmgren said he'd have his position coaches call entire series for him when he wasn't feeling it. Yet we want to pretend that good play calls are the holy grail of effective football.

That said, if the offense is consistently performing poorly and that is proven by the numbers, then ultimately the OC takes the heat for that. Just like a mid-level manager takes the heat for a failing division he oversees. But no one has statistical support for this over Bevell's tenure. It's all "gut feeling" that the offense could be than the top-10 standing it's consistently found itself in over the last three years, despite having a quarterback who anyone can see is somewhat limited and having almost no resources devoted anywhere on this offense.

They're not the holy grail, they're simply one of the easiest things to retool during a season rather than player personnel at starting positions, position coaches and the OC himself. It's the starting point in an ongoing conversation in improvement.

Yes, unwarranted speculation into what if's are madness, but so is ignoring what your peers are doing with the talent they have.

 

[DavidSeven]

The Rams, Broncos, Niners and Bears all changed play callers this past offseason. All of them are at the bottom of the league in offense and doing worse than Seattle.

It isn't a magic elixir.

 

[kearly]

I think if Pete decides that Bevell is here long term, then he needs to get to work at rebuilding the offense to what it was in 2012. That being, a very good run blocking line that is decent in protection, 1-2 TEs who can block well, a consistently competent fullback (Coleman is finally showing some signs this year), and a RB who can legitimately replace the physicality and quality of Marshawn Lynch.

Simply put, when Bevell thinks he has to get clever, that's when he's at his worst. But if you just want him to call obvious plays and have those plays work, Bevell can succeed with that. But you need a consistently elite running game to pull that off. This would also benefit Wilson.

If things continue the way they have, my guess is that this is exactly what will happen. Seattle will trade Graham and make a few other moves to free cap space, then sign several 'value' free agents at OL this offseason. Cable is spotty at best with developing OL, but his track record with vets is solid. Blocking TEs and FBs tend to be cheap. It's replacing Lynch that's the tough part, but that said I'm far from convinced that Lynch is done.

 

[Siouxhawk]

I am not clear the objective some have in defending Bevell.

There is nothing to defend, this year his results are terrible. To me, it is an intent to tug at an emotional string.

Personally, not trying to insult Sioux, but I do not think the poster has the capacity to make an assessment. I could not tell you the reason why, whether lack of acumen, intelligence, a need for emotional response, some emotional tie to Bevell or even a personal connection that to Bevell that is not disclosed - there is too much defense of the non-defensible there. So either the inability to acknowledge Bevell's failures is willful, or there is something preventing it - either way it removes any reason to acknowledge the defenses.

But I think most are clear that defending repeated weaknesses and issues damages credibility.

The biggest problem I have with Bevell is not that he is just not exceptional if not below average, but that he refuses to acknowledge where he fails or falls short. It is also the reason I am certain he will never be an effective head coach unless he changes that.

Good leaders admit their failures and learn from them, and they credit their successes to those that helped make them possible. You notice Pete does that? He credits his assistants and players for his successes and when his team fails? He takes ownership of that failure, and then looks to improve on that missed step.

Bevell is reminds me of a less noxious Ty Willingham in that he is quick to blame others, shirks responsibility, hides from people want to hold him accountable, but is all too eager to jump on the stage or stand on the table and claim responsibility for success - often when he has contributed little to it.

Even worse, he isn't even an exceptional expert as far as subject matter. He just hitched himself to the right wagon (which I suppose you COULD call a skill but still...).

That is not to say he cannot fix those shortcomings but to do so he has to admit to them before he can work on fixing them. However, it is clear that Bevell with THIS group of personnel* is a liability, not a benefit.


*Yes the personnel group is challenging (OL, scrambling QB, etc.) but there are coordinators that could do a better job. And if you want to give Bevell credit for the rushing game you have to blame him for the passing - either way, the measuring stick is scoring and his offenses are not getting it done.

You never answered me. What is your favorite team to root for?

 

[kearly]

The Rams, Broncos, Niners and Bears all changed play callers this past offseason. All of them are at the bottom of the league in offense and doing worse than Seattle.

It isn't a magic elixir.

I agree. It's not a magic elixir, it's a roll of the dice. Just like any coaching hire.

That said, I would probably discount the Broncos, Niners, and Bears from the equation here as those three were more than just an isolated OC change, they were totally new regimes. Pete didn't turn the offense around dramatically in his first five games, I wouldn't expect those regimes to either.

Cignetti is a good example of an OC not really changing the results much, but for the record he wasn't an outside hire. He was promoted from within the organization. And as said, it's still early to judge him, only 5 games in.

 

[dopeboy206]

When was the last time an NFL OC got fired in the middle of a season? Just wondering.

The Ravens did it and won the Super Bowl that year.

Their first or second SB?

 

[Siouxhawk]

One other thing no one gives Bev credit for is making halftime adjustments. The Hawks were likely the best at doing this a season ago. And I anticipate that will continue in the near future as we hit a more favorable span of the schedule.

The overall hindrance, however, has been the breakdown of the offensive line. Those problems began to rear their head again in the fourth quarter and overtime and our offense hit a snag. We were able to get off the quick outs, but not enough to consistently move the chains. It's funny that I saw someone clamoring for more bubble screens. Haha. But I guess it makes sense since the Walking Dead do travel in packs, but really have no sense of direction.

 

[mrt144]

The Rams, Broncos, Niners and Bears all changed play callers this past offseason. All of them are at the bottom of the league in offense and doing worse than Seattle.

It isn't a magic elixir.

Most of us have seen department managers come and go at our jobs and a department not improve one iota for it. What I am suggesting is a change to SOPs as a first step in remediating a moribund offense.

 

[kearly]

One thing I will say in Bevell's defense is that player chemistry matters. I think if Hass were still here, Graham would be averaging 10+ catches a game because Hass LOVES throwing contested passes to big targets. Anyone who watched Thursday Night Football last week got the latest reminder of that. When BMW came here in 2010, he had a career boon with Hasselbeck, then collapsed the very next season with Tjack.

Russ is a very good QB, but he has trust issues with anyone not named Jermaine Kearse. Throwing fades and jump balls just isn't what Russ likes to do. When Wilson is at his best as a passer he's finding guys like Baldwin and Richardson with quick hitters on his first read. Maybe the FO is still 'feeling out' what kind of pass catcher Wilson gels with.

Actually, that isn't really a defense of Bevell more than it is a statement about how all sorts of things factor into the offense. Bevell is hindering the offense, but other factors are hindering it as well.

 

[seahawksny]

If they even consider sarkisian, I'm done with Nfl