Now that we know their teams, which QB

[Palmegranite]

Lets wait till we see how they are used before we drive a stake thru their heart, odds on the assessment is correct, but then again Wilson would have failed in Cleveland..........

Yeah, dissenting opinion here. I don't believe this for one minute. He's the outlier; the one QB in the last generation that would have turned around literally every single average to bad NFL team in the first season he played with them.


Brady, Rogers, the bros Manning, may all have failed in Cleveland. But no way Russell Wilson.

And I think Tyrod Taylor will likely start, and have a modicum of success in Cleveland. Rookie will watch and learn.

 

[chris98251]

Lets wait till we see how they are used before we drive a stake thru their heart, odds on the assessment is correct, but then again Wilson would have failed in Cleveland..........

Yeah, dissenting opinion here. I don't believe this for one minute. He's the outlier; the one QB in the last generation that would have turned around literally every single average to bad NFL team in the first season he played with them.


Brady, Rogers, the bros Manning, may all have failed in Cleveland. But no way Russell Wilson.

And I think Tyrod Taylor will likely start, and have a modicum of success in Cleveland. Rookie will watch and learn.

Drops Mic !

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

I've said it a couple of times, but the NYG won the draft. Kyle Lauletta will spend some time learning from Eli and become a very productive QB if given the right opportunity.

However, as for immediate starters? Josh Allen is on a rising team in Buffalo and will be an immediate success.

 

[toffee]

When it comes to perfect situation, I vote for Alex McGough. 7th rounder, no pressure. A mentor that plays same style. Perfect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Popeyejones]

I've seen the Rosen = Jay Cutler comparison multiple times. What's the deal with that?

It’s a misapplied dig on Rosen’s personality, not really at all about comping them as QBs.

 

[SanDiego49er]

Baker Mayfield - It's really hard to succeed with Cleveland. They just fail forever. He is accurate. But I'm not really sure about him at #1 overall. That's really high for Mayfield. But it's Cleveland. They do strange things.

Sam Darnold - He has a huge upside. He is spectacular throwing on the run. Just in the elite category with that. In the pocket he is pretty solid with some inconsistency. I don't think he is a sure thing. But his upside is really big IMO.

Josh Allen - 6'5" 237 lbs. with a rocket arm. He runs around pretty good and is a pretty good athlete too. There is no doubt he has the highest upside. A lot of his accuracy issues IMO are a result of playing on Wyoming. Which is just not the most talent around him. Having said that he has some accuracy issues and does very inconsistent things and makes some mistakes. He is not really ready and will need to grow and learn. He could bust for sure. But his upside is huge if he gets it.

Josh Rosen - From a mechanics and pocket presence standpoint I think he is the most pro ready. I would say he has a high floor but not as high of a ceiling as some of the other players. But I think he can be an effective pro in the right system.

Lamar Jackson - He is athletic and runs around really well but he gets injured a lot. Much like RG3 and Kaepernick I think he will get hurt and not turn out well. His game IMO doesn't translate well to the pros. I don't expect him to do great. That doesn't mean he can't do well for a few games or even 1 season. But I think when they get tape on him and figure him out it will be harder for him like the two I mentioned.

I don't know if there are any sure things here. I think the highest floor is Rosen. You know what you are getting there. The highest upside is Josh Allen followed closely by Sam Darnold. Baker Mayfield is smaller than what I would like for a #1 pick and runs around a bit and may get hurt. He is accurate as a thrower though. I just don't like him as a #1 overall pick. But it's the Browns and they often do strange things in the Draft.

Anyway all these predictions are obviously way too soon. You have to see them play a little for it to play out. Probably 1 will surpise, 1 will disappoint and some will be in between just looking at the averages.

 

[purpleneer]

It's all about the team management for all of them. I think as much as it looks like the QB is almost the only piece that matters, there's enough variation in the performance of even the top QB's to show that the whole thing matters and more QB's are at the mercy of their situation than people think.
Some of the narratives on each of these rookies are just ridiculous arguments and lazy analysis at best.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

It's all about the team management for all of them. I think as much as it looks like the QB is almost the only piece that matters, there's enough variation in the performance of even the top QB's to show that the whole thing matters and more QB's are at the mercy of their situation than people think.
Some of the narratives on each of these rookies are just ridiculous arguments and lazy analysis at best.

Sioux? Is that you?

 

[purpleneer]

It's all about the team management for all of them. I think as much as it looks like the QB is almost the only piece that matters, there's enough variation in the performance of even the top QB's to show that the whole thing matters and more QB's are at the mercy of their situation than people think.
Some of the narratives on each of these rookies are just ridiculous arguments and lazy analysis at best.

Sioux? Is that you?

LOL.
My feelings on some guys based almost purely on very limited tape viewing goes:
Allen
Darnold
Rosen
Jackson
Mayfield
Buffalo and NYJ are situations I'm not sure about, but could hurt or help their guys. Baltimore and Arizona are probably good for their guys. Cleveland fired the wrong guy and picked the wrong guy; they were looking like they had a chance to change their identity and took a step back.

 

[chris98251]

It's all about the team management for all of them. I think as much as it looks like the QB is almost the only piece that matters, there's enough variation in the performance of even the top QB's to show that the whole thing matters and more QB's are at the mercy of their situation than people think.
Some of the narratives on each of these rookies are just ridiculous arguments and lazy analysis at best.

Sioux? Is that you?

Nah Siouxie would have said if they bring in TJack and Bevell it would fix their issues.

 

[SanDiego49er]

It's all about the team management for all of them. I think as much as it looks like the QB is almost the only piece that matters, there's enough variation in the performance of even the top QB's to show that the whole thing matters and more QB's are at the mercy of their situation than people think.
Some of the narratives on each of these rookies are just ridiculous arguments and lazy analysis at best.

Sioux? Is that you?

LOL.
My feelings on some guys based almost purely on very limited tape viewing goes:
Allen
Darnold
Rosen
Jackson
Mayfield
Buffalo and NYJ are situations I'm not sure about, but could hurt or help their guys. Baltimore and Arizona are probably good for their guys. Cleveland fired the wrong guy and picked the wrong guy; they were looking like they had a chance to change their identity and took a step back.

Don't they always do that? I think that is why they pick in the top 3 - 5 every year it seems. They always win the draft in Cleveland. At least they have that to look forward to.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

It's all about the team management for all of them. I think as much as it looks like the QB is almost the only piece that matters, there's enough variation in the performance of even the top QB's to show that the whole thing matters and more QB's are at the mercy of their situation than people think.
Some of the narratives on each of these rookies are just ridiculous arguments and lazy analysis at best.

Sioux? Is that you?

LOL.
My feelings on some guys based almost purely on very limited tape viewing goes:
Allen
Darnold
Rosen
Jackson
Mayfield
Buffalo and NYJ are situations I'm not sure about, but could hurt or help their guys. Baltimore and Arizona are probably good for their guys. Cleveland fired the wrong guy and picked the wrong guy; they were looking like they had a chance to change their identity and took a step back.

I agree with your ranking, but I'd probably move Rosen up one. He reminds me A LOT of Eli. Buffalo has built a solid defense and they are piecing together the offense. My fear is that Allen will start too soon. I'd keep him off of the field until after their Bye week. Then again, maybe there's a reason I'm a mechanic and not a football coach.

 

[Smellyman]

Mayfield can thank RW success to being number one, but he still has a lot of detractors. If he was 6'3 he'd be consensus #1 with no questions asked if all you did was look at their game films.

 

[purpleneer]

I agree with your ranking, but I'd probably move Rosen up one. He reminds me A LOT of Eli. Buffalo has built a solid defense and they are piecing together the offense. My fear is that Allen will start too soon. I'd keep him off of the field until after their Bye week. Then again, maybe there's a reason I'm a mechanic and not a football coach.

I think the starting too soon issue is handled terribly most of the time. Coaches try to "help" a young QB by leaning on a run game and using "safe" throws, but make themselves predictable and make the usually easy throws more risky. Organizations judge too quickly and also misplace blame/credit while just plain being too impatient and overvaluing a system, trying to change the player to fit it rather than adapting it.

 

[SanDiego49er]

Mayfield can thank RW success to being number one, but he still has a lot of detractors. If he was 6'3 he'd be consensus #1 with no questions asked if all you did was look at their game films.

Maybe so. But other than Russell Wilson and Drew Brees there are not a lot of 6'0" and under QB's who are great QB's. It's no the prototype of great success for QB's in the NFL. Most of the real good ones are bigger and taller and have a higher release. NFL Linemen are big and tall with long arms. It's hard to throw it over them if you are too short. Wilson uses mobility to run around and find open throwing lanes. Brees is a master of shifting around within the pocket to find a small crack or opening to have a tiny throwing lane. But it's not ordinary for guys to have success who are real short.

 

[chris98251]

Mayfield can thank RW success to being number one, but he still has a lot of detractors. If he was 6'3 he'd be consensus #1 with no questions asked if all you did was look at their game films.

Maybe so. But other than Russell Wilson and Drew Brees there are not a lot of 6'0" and under QB's who are great QB's. It's no the prototype of great success for QB's in the NFL. Most of the real good ones are bigger and taller and have a higher release. NFL Linemen are big and tall with long arms. It's hard to throw it over them if you are too short. Wilson uses mobility to run around and find open throwing lanes. Brees is a master of shifting around within the pocket to find a small crack or opening to have a tiny throwing lane. But it's not ordinary for guys to have success who are real short.

Flutie managed pretty good.

Also the stigma prevents players from even getting a chance based on the exact things so called experts say, we listened to the experts for months about Wilson, Pete had the balls to give him a chance and to follow his performances into the starting position. Several have posted his Pocket performance and it's as good or better then many Skyscraper QB's.

Also as a 49ers fan you should have witnessed it several time already.

 

[SanDiego49er]

Mayfield can thank RW success to being number one, but he still has a lot of detractors. If he was 6'3 he'd be consensus #1 with no questions asked if all you did was look at their game films.

Maybe so. But other than Russell Wilson and Drew Brees there are not a lot of 6'0" and under QB's who are great QB's. It's no the prototype of great success for QB's in the NFL. Most of the real good ones are bigger and taller and have a higher release. NFL Linemen are big and tall with long arms. It's hard to throw it over them if you are too short. Wilson uses mobility to run around and find open throwing lanes. Brees is a master of shifting around within the pocket to find a small crack or opening to have a tiny throwing lane. But it's not ordinary for guys to have success who are real short.

Flutie managed pretty good.

Also the stigma prevents players from even getting a chance based on the exact things so called experts say, we listened to the experts for months about Wilson, Pete had the balls to give him a chance and to follow his performances into the starting position. Several have posted his Pocket performance and it's as good or better then many Skyscraper QB's.

Also as a 49ers fan you should have witnessed it several time already.

Flutie was not a long term starter in the league. He did start sometimes. He also spent long periods of time being a backup in the NFL. He was on the Chargers and he was a backup for a pretty long time. He was a good college player though. But to call him a great pro I think is saying too much.

I know what Russell Wilson is. I went to University of Wisconsin. He was a Wisconsin Badger. I'm a fan of him personally. I know who he is. He is accurate from the pocket and mobile and accurate throwing on the run. But I think that is unique to him for his size. Because not too many people are who are like 5'10" or whatever he really is. He throws a good accurate ball from the pocket and is good throwing on the run too. But I think he is the exception rather than the rule.

Can Mayfield be good? Who knows? He was accurate in college. The Browns have such a history of failure I think it's hard to imagine him having a lot of help around him. But we will have to wait and see what happens. You have to give him some time.

 

[Smellyman]

Mayfield can thank RW success to being number one, but he still has a lot of detractors. If he was 6'3 he'd be consensus #1 with no questions asked if all you did was look at their game films.

Maybe so. But other than Russell Wilson and Drew Brees there are not a lot of 6'0" and under QB's who are great QB's. It's no the prototype of great success for QB's in the NFL. Most of the real good ones are bigger and taller and have a higher release. NFL Linemen are big and tall with long arms. It's hard to throw it over them if you are too short. Wilson uses mobility to run around and find open throwing lanes. Brees is a master of shifting around within the pocket to find a small crack or opening to have a tiny throwing lane. But it's not ordinary for guys to have success who are real short.

Flutie managed pretty good.

Also the stigma prevents players from even getting a chance based on the exact things so called experts say, we listened to the experts for months about Wilson, Pete had the balls to give him a chance and to follow his performances into the starting position. Several have posted his Pocket performance and it's as good or better then many Skyscraper QB's.

Also as a 49ers fan you should have witnessed it several time already.

Flutie was not a long term starter in the league. He did start sometimes. He also spent long periods of time being a backup in the NFL. He was on the Chargers and he was a backup for a pretty long time. He was a good college player though. But to call him a great pro I think is saying too much.

I know what Russell Wilson is. I went to University of Wisconsin. He was a Wisconsin Badger. I'm a fan of him personally. I know who he is. He is accurate from the pocket and mobile and accurate throwing on the run. But I think that is unique to him for his size. Because not too many people are who are like 5'10" or whatever he really is. He throws a good accurate ball from the pocket and is good throwing on the run too. But I think he is the exception rather than the rule.

Can Mayfield be good? Who knows? He was accurate in college. The Browns have such a history of failure I think it's hard to imagine him having a lot of help around him. But we will have to wait and see what happens. You have to give him some time.

Mayfield was THE MOST ACCURATE qb in college with a phenomenal passer rating. Just like Russell Wilson.

Do you think Mayfield played with small oline and dlines in front of him for 4 years? Troy Aikman has said at 6'4 he can't see over lineman. So unless you are 6'8 nobody can. Maybe we need even taller QBs!

Or as Chris already pointed out short QBs just never get the opportunity.

Also, you might want to check out how badly Flutie was screwed. All he did was win, but dangit, he was just too short

[youtube]Ukq0W1ABJo4[/youtube]

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Maybe so. But other than Russell Wilson and Drew Brees there are not a lot of 6'0" and under QB's who are great QB's. It's no the prototype of great success for QB's in the NFL. Most of the real good ones are bigger and taller and have a higher release. NFL Linemen are big and tall with long arms. It's hard to throw it over them if you are too short. Wilson uses mobility to run around and find open throwing lanes. Brees is a master of shifting around within the pocket to find a small crack or opening to have a tiny throwing lane. But it's not ordinary for guys to have success who are real short.

Flutie managed pretty good.

Also the stigma prevents players from even getting a chance based on the exact things so called experts say, we listened to the experts for months about Wilson, Pete had the balls to give him a chance and to follow his performances into the starting position. Several have posted his Pocket performance and it's as good or better then many Skyscraper QB's.

Also as a 49ers fan you should have witnessed it several time already.

Flutie was not a long term starter in the league. He did start sometimes. He also spent long periods of time being a backup in the NFL. He was on the Chargers and he was a backup for a pretty long time. He was a good college player though. But to call him a great pro I think is saying too much.

I know what Russell Wilson is. I went to University of Wisconsin. He was a Wisconsin Badger. I'm a fan of him personally. I know who he is. He is accurate from the pocket and mobile and accurate throwing on the run. But I think that is unique to him for his size. Because not too many people are who are like 5'10" or whatever he really is. He throws a good accurate ball from the pocket and is good throwing on the run too. But I think he is the exception rather than the rule.

Can Mayfield be good? Who knows? He was accurate in college. The Browns have such a history of failure I think it's hard to imagine him having a lot of help around him. But we will have to wait and see what happens. You have to give him some time.

Mayfield was THE MOST ACCURATE qb in college with a phenomenal passer rating. Just like Russell Wilson.

Do you think Mayfield played with small oline and dlines in front of him for 4 years? Troy Aikman has said at 6'4 he can't see over lineman. So unless you are 6'8 nobody can. Maybe we need even taller QBs!

Or as Chris already pointed out short QBs just never get the opportunity.

Also, you might want to check out how badly Flutie was screwed. All he did was win, but dangit, he was just too short

[youtube]Ukq0W1ABJo4[/youtube]

BUT nobody ever doubted RWs character.

 

[purpleneer]

Mayfield was THE MOST ACCURATE qb in college with a phenomenal passer rating. Just like Russell Wilson.

Do you think Mayfield played with small oline and dlines in front of him for 4 years? Troy Aikman has said at 6'4 he can't see over lineman. So unless you are 6'8 nobody can. Maybe we need even taller QBs!

Or as Chris already pointed out short QBs just never get the opportunity.

Also, you might want to check out how badly Flutie was screwed. All he did was win, but dangit, he was just too short

[youtube]Ukq0W1ABJo4[/youtube]

Your bolded part is one of my pet peeves. Completion percentage is not the be-all-end-all expression of accuracy that almost everyone treats it like.
That said, you're right about the opportunity issue; QBs without the first-round tools just don't get the same chance to show and develop. It's an issue that also skews the data on players by round drafted.
For my view though, Mayfield could be 6'4" and I wouldn't grade him him any higher. I think he uses his shortness as a tool and I see decisions and throws that are as bad as Allen's worst. He has benefited a ton from both relative talent around him and a coach and system that maximize what he can do far more than what most college players get. He has a great feel for the RPO game, but won't find that nearly as easy in the NFL and options for him will unravel.