Minn QB Kirk Cousins: Leader of Men or Just Another Stiff?

[olyfan63]

KIRK COUSINS WINS A BIG GAME, ON THE ROAD!!
Even outduels Drew Brees.
It was even Cousins MAKING THE PLAYS to win this game, as opposed to game-manager duty while Dalvin Cook and the D handle business.

 

[olyfan63]

Welp, he finally won a big game.

Cousins seems to perform much better with a legit running game. Darndest thing.

Uncle Si, how is it going over in the Twin Cities?
THEY LIKE THAT??!!
Is this going to change the narrative from "Cousins is a bum, he can't win a big game" to "Cousins is a bum, he's only ever won ONE big game"?

Not gloating, just amused. I don't really have a dog in this hunt other than my belief, from seeing Wilson and Cousins battles in college, and how MSU rallied around Cousins, that Cousins has leadership qualities that translate to the NFL, IF he has an otherwise sound team around him, and competent coaches and coordinator.

I will say, the body language of the Vikings players towards Cousins in the post-game locker room, says that is a team that likes, respects, and believes in their QB. But that's obvious confirmation bias, and cherry picking on my part, in a moment of success.

 

[justafan]

He played good. Every QB plays better with a running game.

 

[knownone]

So, what does this put Cousins at 6-28 against teams with a winning record?

He played a pretty good game against a good team. Hopefully, he can channel this performance into a win against the Niners so we have a shot at a home playoff game.

 

[olyfan63]

So, what does this put Cousins at 6-28 against teams with a winning record?

He played a pretty good game against a good team. Hopefully, he can channel this performance into a win against the Niners so we have a shot at a home playoff game.

I think this makes Cousins 1-0 in road playoff games. The NFL is a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately league.

OMG, WTF will happen to the Cousins-can't-win-big-games narrative if he beats the Niners next week?
"Kirk Cousins won his second straight road playoff game on Sunday, making him 2-0 in road playoff games for his career"

Uncle Si, you are accusing ME of "moving the goalposts"? Exactly how?
What I see is you brought the word "ELITE" into the conversation, which IS "moving the goalposts" when the question I asked was about Cousins LEADERSHIP and ability to inspire and elevate the play of the whole team. You know, like Russell Wilson does. ELITE, well let's save that for guys like Patrick Mahomes and IMO Deshaun Watson, and maybe a couple others, with that level of physical talent. Cousins will never have the arm talent or running talent of either. Then there have been guys like Jay Cutler who have an ELITE arm but not much else.

Back to leadership, and how the team feels about Cousins...
Cousins made three throws in overtime that displayed the skill that led to the Vikings signing him — three throws that gave the Vikings a 26-20 victory in the first round of the playoffs at the Superdome.
“That’s him,’’ running back Dalvin Cook said. “That’s our guy. That’s our quarterback. The type of guy he is, we love him so much.’’
source: http://www.startribune.com/from-now-on- ... 566737142/

Yes, I have a fascination with Leadership and its effect on organizations. Slightly off-topic digression for a paragraphy or so here... We had an unconventional gem of a football coach leader here in the Pac NW, a gentleman named Frosty Westering, who I also find fascinating. He led the Pacific Lutheran University football team to four National Championships. (Mix of NAIA, DIII I think) Anyway, I recall reading an article that talked about his team's primary motivation for winning playoff games. The players primary motivation, when asked? To have the honor and privilege of spending another week as part of the team, with the guys and staff they'd grown close to as brothers, in an environment they loved. Really. Just that. That really made me stop in my tracks, and think. So counter to the numerous abusive Marine DI coaches I had when growing up. Yet highly successful. Then it turns out Frosty was a Marine DI himself. What?? Anyone curious can google Frosty Westering and find lots. One starting point: https://www.si.com/vault/2000/08/14/286 ... out-of-you

FWIW, Gardner Minshew II is another NFL QB I perceive as having leadership qualities, from having seen him play in college. But it's a bit early. Cousins is interesting because of the apparent gap between his leadership qualities and the results of his teams. Was it Cousins holding them back? Or was it Cousins elevating the teams results to a level above the actual talent level (Redskins), leading to losses in games where the team talent discrepancy was too much for his QB play to overcome, particularly when combined with organizational dysfunction? (Redskins again)

So, Cousins performed in a way that brought his team a win, and certainly has Dalvin Cook's endorsement. Should be an interesting matchup with the 49ers at Levi this coming week. I do not have a prediction on that game, but I will be rooting for the Vikings, primarily for a possible NFCCG at the CLink. Statistically, Cousins and Garropolo are similar, but in my book, Cousins would have the edge because of his less-frequent turnovers, picks in particular. See https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/stats/j ... ousins.php One clear motivational advantage for JimmyG - he can hook his teammates up with prawn stars, while Cousins seems like a good-two-shoes, and I think he's married and has kids and boring stuff like that. Advantage: JimmyG.

 

[SanDiego49er]

I really thought I would never see him win a big game. And I mean never. So I have to say congratulations to him and the Vikings. They played really well and deserved the victory over New Orleans.

 

[IndyHawk]

Welp, he finally won a big game.

Cousins seems to perform much better with a legit running game. Darndest thing.

Uncle Si, how is it going over in the Twin Cities?
THEY LIKE THAT??!!
Is this going to change the narrative from "Cousins is a bum, he can't win a big game" to "Cousins is a bum, he's only ever won ONE big game"?

Not gloating, just amused. I don't really have a dog in this hunt other than my belief, from seeing Wilson and Cousins battles in college, and how MSU rallied around Cousins, that Cousins has leadership qualities that translate to the NFL, IF he has an otherwise sound team around him, and competent coaches and coordinator.

I will say, the body language of the Vikings players towards Cousins in the post-game locker room, says that is a team that likes, respects, and believes in their QB. But that's obvious confirmation bias, and cherry picking on my part, in a moment of success.

You and your Cousins thing ..
John?Is that you? :sarcasm_on:
I think your a Vikings fan anyway in my opinion.

 

[olyfan63]

You and your Cousins thing ..
John?Is that you? :sarcasm_on:
I think your a Vikings fan anyway in my opinion.

John63 is that you? Or maybe Anthony! Trying to "Always Compete" on behalf of Russell? Or even, gasp, Tokadub? :sarcasm_off:
C'mon, Russell has the whole Hawks main forum. Really? All that is about as silly as me accusing you of being primarily an Indy Fan, just pissed because Luck retired.

Anyway, if you hate Cousins, indifferent toward him, whatever, please chime in with some stuff related to the thread. Aren't you better than that? Most of us try to be, on this board. It's what makes things more interesting here than other boards. How about some actual football-related content instead of silly personal pissing?

FWIW, My ex was born in the Twin Cities and her parents are big Viking fans. Me, mostly indifferent, unless the Vikes can do something for the Hawks, like beat Green Bay. The Vikings organization has done a nice job the past few years, from what I've seen.

Next season, I'll no doubt start a similar Gardner Minshew II thread. Then you can accuse me of being a Jags fan if you're so inclined.

I did run across this:

I guess I'm wired differently.
I wanted the 3 seed and the Vikings..
Why be scared?It's Kirk Freaking Cousins!
Rain hurts all stats including Kirks.
Besides a 3 seed can turn into the highest
but you all assume 1-2 are going to win.

So what's your beef with Cousins? Tell us why he sucks, even after making big plays to win a road playoff game. No doubt, to some people, Cousins would be fingernails on a chalkboard.

 

[Maulbert]

You and your Cousins thing ..
John?Is that you? :sarcasm_on:
I think your a Vikings fan anyway in my opinion.

John63 is that you? Or maybe Anthony! Trying to "Always Compete" on behalf of Russell? Or even, gasp, Tokadub? :sarcasm_off:
C'mon, Russell has the whole Hawks main forum. Really? All that is about as silly as me accusing you of being primarily an Indy Fan, just pissed because Luck retired.

Anyway, if you hate Cousins, indifferent toward him, whatever, please chime in with some stuff related to the thread. Aren't you better than that? Most of us try to be, on this board. It's what makes things more interesting here than other boards. How about some actual football-related content instead of silly personal pissing?

FWIW, My ex was born in the Twin Cities and her parents are big Viking fans. Me, mostly indifferent, unless the Vikes can do something for the Hawks, like beat Green Bay. The Vikings organization has done a nice job the past few years, from what I've seen.

Next season, I'll no doubt start a similar Gardner Minshew II thread. Then you can accuse me of being a Jags fan if you're so inclined.

I did run across this:

I guess I'm wired differently.
I wanted the 3 seed and the Vikings..
Why be scared?It's Kirk Freaking Cousins!
Rain hurts all stats including Kirks.
Besides a 3 seed can turn into the highest
but you all assume 1-2 are going to win.

So what's your beef with Cousins? Tell us why he sucks, even after making big plays to win a road playoff game. No doubt, to some people, Cousins would be fingernails on a chalkboard.

I don't think anyone here has a beef with Cousins. I think most people here don't think much about him when he isn't playing the Hawks. More important, why are you so obsessed with him? There isn't a single other QB outside the NFC West with a thread devoted to him. Most of the people here seem to think Cousins is just a guy, and you act like they're making personal attacks. If I'm honest, I couldn't give two shits about Cousins. I don't hate him. That requires more investment.

So I ask, why do you love him so much? You care at least 10× more about him than anyone else here.

 

[olyfan63]

I don't think anyone here has a beef with Cousins. I think most people here don't think much about him when he isn't playing the Hawks. More important, why are you so obsessed with him?
-snip-
Most of the people here seem to think Cousins is just a guy, and you act like they're making personal attacks. If I'm honest, I couldn't give two $h!t about Cousins. I don't hate him. That requires more investment.

So I ask, why do you love him so much? You care at least 10× more about him than anyone else here.

Fair question. Why did I choose Kirk Cousins to focus on? :?: You and others, of course, know about the Adopt-A-Rookie program on Seahawks.NET, where we choose a rookie each year to focus on and follow in-depth during the course of the season. I decided this year to also choose one "opponent"/non-Seahawks topic as a study for the season, to stick with and learn. I chose Cousins this year* as my 2019-20 Adopt-Another-NFL-Team's-Player. Maybe other good choices could be guys like Carson Wentz, or ex-Seahawk Frank Clark, or even TJ Watt. Why? Because it's interesting and I figured I'd learn something new. Before this season, I never really read or posted in the NFL NATION forum. Turns out, there's lots of good stuff in here, for learning more and understanding the NFL game that much better.

The question I've asked is, If Cousins has such strong leadership qualities, why hasn't Kirk Cousins done better in the NFL in "big games"? As it turned out, a few posters really wanted to turn the question into, "Is Kirk Cousins Elite?", which is silly to me, as he doesn't have any elite physical tools, and no SB rings. He's closer to Dave Krieg than to DeShaun Watson. So I've tried to bring things back to the "Leadership" question.

So, Kirk Cousins, why is Cousins interesting to follow? Short version is the parallel paths of Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins going back to their college rivalry, Wisconsin and MSU, the tale of two QBs. Of particular interest to me was the unusual intensity with which the MSU players supported Kirk Cousins as the leader of the team, which came through in a number of media articles at the time.

Cousins is also interesting because he's been an underdog a lot in the NFL, 4th round pick, and nothing has been handed to him. He has beaten out Heisman winner Robert Griffin III and others, but he's also been benched at least a couple times during his Redskins years. Each time he's worked his way back to starting, and then, eventually, to excelling as a starter. I confess to a fondness for underdogs.

A number of people on the board seem to be invested in the "Kirk Cousins can't win big games" narrative. Well, he actually has won a number of big games in the NFL, just not "big enough" games. And he's been particularly cursed in Monday night games, apparently. (I generally only watch Seahawks MNF games) That "Cousins always loses in big games" narrative seemed like a real thing after the Vikings lost to Green Bay at home a few weeks back, when they still had a chance to win the division if they beat the Packers. They lost to the Packers of course; narrative confirmed. But then Cousins unexpectedly smashed that narrative to bits with his first playoff win on Sunday, on the road, over the #2 seed Saints.

If people choose to hassle me over my "love" for another team's player, fine, but please be so kind as to also include some ACTUAL FOOTBALL CONTENT in the process of hassling me, preferably that includes some analysis, stats, etc. that is useful for showing why my chosen player sucks, will always suck, etc., Also, please DO stop back to GLOAT from time to time when they DO suck, e.g., Cousins throws 4 picks in a loss, and sneak in a teeny bit of actual football content, a few stats, an interview with former HS coach about what a bum the player is, how he'll always be a bum, etc. just a teensy bit of plausible denial, to thinly disguise the gloating. :twisted:

Next season, I expect to choose Gardner Minshew II, as my Adopt-Another-NFL-Team's-Player, unless something unforeseen aces him out, and to create and update a thread over the course of the season. I hope you and others will stop by and hassle me about that, and GLOAT when my player has a crap game.

And remember, Kirk Cousins has yet another *truly* BIG GAME coming up, this Saturday! Another chance to work the "Cousins always fails in BIG GAMES!" narrative. Even better, if he sucks and the Vikes lose, a chance to come back here and GLOAT!!

P.S. As you point out, I may have gotten too emotionally invested at times. I'll work on that. The point is to learn and have a little fun along the way. I need to remember that a season-long thread on another team's player may not be something people are used to seeing here.

:irishdrinkers:

 

[Sports Hernia]

You didn't really think Cousins was going to win that game vs Green Bay did you? I knew he wouldn't. I have never seen him win a big game in my life. NEVER. I mean he may have some out there that I didn't see but they are few and far between. 0 - 9 on MNF is incredible. It's stunning to be that bad. You would think you would win one by just getting lucky. He is like 0 - 100 in big games, prime time games, SNF, MNF, playoff atmosphere, really important match ups. I mean I NEVER see him win anything big. I can't believe people think this is a "good QB" based on stats. If you can't win big games EVER you are NOT GOOD period.

:34853_doh:

I was cautiously optimistic, especially if Dalvin Cook was playing . Kirk, give us some kind of sign that things are different now! So, without Cook, Kirk buddy, it's all you! This is your chance! Elite QBs can win games anyway even when their team is missing a weapon or two.

Even the early game returns were positive. Minny gets a turnover giving them the ball 10 yards from paydirt. Then they settle for a FG??!!! WTF is this schit?? Another turnover, and Cousins gets a TD pass and now it's 10-3. Then another GB turnover. No points from that, Vikings offense fails to cash in. OK, so 3 gift wrapped turnovers, for a total of 10 Minnesota points?

Minny's leading rusher had 28 yards on 10 carries. So clearly Minnesota is *screwed* without their Dalvin Cook running game. Cousins is not able to carry the team without a running game.

Minnesota's O-Line had trouble with the Packers' D-Line, 5 sacks on Cousins. Cousins repeatedly took drive-killing sacks, while looking deep downfield, including some dumb sacks he ran himself into. Marginal pocket awareness. What we Seahawks fans call "Hero Ball" when Russell Wilson does this.

MY Verdict: Kirk Cousins is a better than average STIFF. He could not elevate his team to a W at home, even when spotted 3 turnovers.

Alternate view: With Dalvin Cook and a running game, Cousins and the Vikes score at least 24 points in this game, and the Vikings probably win. The Vikings held Cook out for the playoffs, to try to get him healthy. Cousins and the Vikings could be dangerous in the playoffs with a healthy Dalvin Cook.

Looking forward: Next week's game is pretty much meaningless for the Vikes. Playoffs. If Cousins can lead his team to a playoff win, it will be time to revisit this.

I hope your buddy beats the Niners next weekend. 8)

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Happy for the guy, he FINALLY won a big game. Seems like a good dude too. Hopefully he proves me and everyone else wrong again on Saturday :2thumbs:

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

People are supposed to drop info/insight on other teams in the NFL Nation. And I think it's pretty impressive that Olyfan is texting back and forth with an NFL quarterback as he said in his OP. If a QB bothered to give me that time of day, I'd certainly want to write about it.

It's not like the Nation forum just exists to talk 49ers or even divisional rivals.

 

[Uncle Si]

I am surrounded by Vikings fans. The consensus on Sunday was this:

Kirk Cousins didn't blow it. This does not make him anything more, just doesn't make him anything less. One of my friends put it succintly:

"We have gotten so used to him blowing it, that when he plays average and the team wins, we immediately want to make him a Hall of Famer"


Despite what Cousins' biggest fan says on here (and no, I don't think he texts with Cousins), he has not won "several big games." There is a reason that his own fan base are speculative and cautious of him, the organization has not offered him an extension even though he has a year left on his contract, and there was a very real possibility that had they lost this game, he and Zimmer both would have been gone next year.

So here we are, the Kirk Cousins era has begun. He's now "not blowing it"... be interesting to see if he can carry a team to a big win now

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And back to back big wins at that. I suspect the Vikes will continue to pound the rock all day long.

 

[olyfan63]

People are supposed to drop info/insight on other teams in the NFL Nation. And I think it's pretty impressive that Olyfan is texting back and forth with an NFL quarterback as he said in his OP. If a QB bothered to give me that time of day, I'd certainly want to write about it.

It's not like the Nation forum just exists to talk 49ers or even divisional rivals.

Just to be clear, the texting every week with Kirk I mentioned is a tongue-in-cheek storytelling device not, something that actually happens IRL. I suppose he has a Twitter I could follow and drop hints or inspiration for him. I think of it like, what would his high school coach tell him, what would one of his high school or MSU college teammates who knows him say to him, to help him focus and prepare.

I've been on Seahawks.NET for a few years, and it's only in the last year I realized how much cool stuff and analysis and excellent posters hang out here in the NFL Nation forum. We do have some 49er posters who share some great information and insights, and things they share often help me understand Seahawks players and schemes, and matchups with other teams.

In following a small handful of players in a bit more depth, I think you (at least in my case) learn a bit more. A couple interesting things with Cousins, is that he was also an excellent baseball player, as a pitcher and 3rd baseman. At MSU, Cousins was maybe the 4th recruiting choice for Mark Dantonio as a QB, and only offered a scholarship when the other 3 guys Dantonio wanted signed elsewhere. Then Cousins spent a year backing up Brian Hoyer before winning the starting job. So if my criteria was to choose an underdog who was handed nothing and worked through a lot of challenges, Cousins definitely fits the bill. So does Russell Wilson; one major difference is that Russell has a way of making things almost look easy, but Russell has had to go the underdog route himself in so many different ways. For example, Russell beat out big-bucks free agent signing Matt Flynn in Russell's first training camp, as a rookie. Cousins didn't beat out Robert Griffin III until the next season, and only after he got a break in Griffin getting injured and losing some of his physical gifts.

 

[olyfan63]

I am surrounded by Vikings fans. The consensus on Sunday was this:

Kirk Cousins didn't blow it. This does not make him anything more, just doesn't make him anything less. One of my friends put it succintly:

"We have gotten so used to him blowing it, that when he plays average and the team wins, we immediately want to make him a Hall of Famer"

Despite what Cousins' biggest fan says on here (and no, I don't think he texts with Cousins), he has not won "several big games." There is a reason that his own fan base are speculative and cautious of him, the organization has not offered him an extension even though he has a year left on his contract, and there was a very real possibility that had they lost this game, he and Zimmer both would have been gone next year.

So here we are, the Kirk Cousins era has begun. He's now "not blowing it"... be interesting to see if he can carry a team to a big win now

Thank you for the Twin Cities perspective, appreciated. Athletically, Cousins is JAG. I see him more like a tall Dave Krieg with bigger hands and less prone to fumble when hit. He does have a nice deep ball, like that key throw to Thielen. IMO his biggest asset is his mind and preparation, like on the winning TD, seeing cover-0, *instantly* knowing his matchups and where to go to get the best one, and making an accurate throw that gave his guy a good chance.

It's hard to imagine that a guy like Zimmer could be tossed out by a fickle ownership group, but then we have regular "Fire Pete!" threads here on .NET. IMO that would be more a matter of a Blair Witch hangover costing him his job.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

Oly, just keep it coming. The focus of this subforum is after all what other teams do. Not just our "favorite" rivals, but all teams. I always think it interesting when any player is featured in depth, and in this case, it's been especially relevant since our game with them, and now having them decide the NFCCG matchup.

 

[Uncle Si]

I am surrounded by Vikings fans. The consensus on Sunday was this:

Kirk Cousins didn't blow it. This does not make him anything more, just doesn't make him anything less. One of my friends put it succintly:

"We have gotten so used to him blowing it, that when he plays average and the team wins, we immediately want to make him a Hall of Famer"

Despite what Cousins' biggest fan says on here (and no, I don't think he texts with Cousins), he has not won "several big games." There is a reason that his own fan base are speculative and cautious of him, the organization has not offered him an extension even though he has a year left on his contract, and there was a very real possibility that had they lost this game, he and Zimmer both would have been gone next year.

So here we are, the Kirk Cousins era has begun. He's now "not blowing it"... be interesting to see if he can carry a team to a big win now

Thank you for the Twin Cities perspective, appreciated. Athletically, Cousins is JAG. I see him more like a tall Dave Krieg with bigger hands and less prone to fumble when hit. He does have a nice deep ball, like that key throw to Thielen. IMO his biggest asset is his mind and preparation, like on the winning TD, seeing cover-0, *instantly* knowing his matchups and where to go to get the best one, and making an accurate throw that gave his guy a good chance.

It's hard to imagine that a guy like Zimmer could be tossed out by a fickle ownership group, but then we have regular "Fire Pete!" threads here on .NET. IMO that would be more a matter of a Blair Witch hangover costing him his job.

They know they have a Super Bowl caliber team, paid money for what should be a top 5 QB, brought in a terrific OC and had him work as an associate to the current one, and found the best RB in the league in the draft.

Missing the playoffs 2 years in a row would've been the end of both (not that they were very close). Losing in the first round wouldve led to a continued conversation about both.

Maybe because the Saints were 13-3, they get the benefit of the doubt. No idea. But would not suggest the ownership group as "fickle." They have put the fans here through a lot.

 

[Uncle Si]

Well...

Which one is he today?