Max Unger and 1st for Jimmy Graham and 4th round pick

[Yxes1122]

I don't know how Graham can be our 31, which still leaves us with the net loss of a center. I see it as Unger for Graham, and a 4th for a 1st.

Truth is, I don't have a huge problem with the thinking behind the trade. What I hate is all the revising going on around here though. Unger all the sudden got shitty, and Graham lost his warts. The hole at center will be easy to fill, CUZ CABLE! and Bevell is going to be good in the red zone, CUZ GRAHAM! There is a thread filled with predictions of 800 to 1000 yards and 10-14 TDs. Never mind that Zach Miller averaged 56 passes caught per year in Oakland, and 25 in Seattle. Hell, there are predictions that he will learn to block now. Like Helfet and Wilson did, I guess.

Netters gonna net. You don't need to hide behind that to say you don't like the trade.

If 2013 and 2014 never happened, I would probably feel the exact same way you do about this swap. But as things stand, I think Unger was probably one more injury away from being cut.

It's not a hate/love the trade issue for me. It's about my list of concerns. Which grew. O-line instability with potentially two very inexperienced players at LG and C is a concern. Our OC not being able to maximize his weapons is a concern. I can't project what will happen nearly so well as I can see what has already happened. The facts say that Percy got twice as many yards per catch in New York as here. Miller caught less than half as many passes in Seattle as Oakland. Rice caught way less in Seattle, and Tate caught 99 balls after leaving our offense. History suggests thinking Graham will do anything close to what he did in a pass happy offense in NO is a pipe dream. Which dramatically affects his value. Pass catchers in Seattle simply do not have the value here they have elsewhere. Unless they make a big change to the offense, which when tried last year was an abysmal failure.

This is exactly where I fall on this trade. Time and time again, Seattle has tried to inject some star receiving power into this offense and time and time again their efforts have failed. It feels like we are treating the symptoms of the issue and not the cause. What is being said about Graham has the same excitement behind it as the hype around Percy. But at this point, when it comes to our passing offense, I'm skeptical that our offense can ever reach a point where it justifies high investment in pass catchers.

I'm not saying that Seattle should stop trying to improve the passing offense. But I don't think getting another big name is the answer. I'm hopeful and believe me when I say I want to see this succeed. And I do believe Graham is a better receiving talent for 2015 than any we'd get in this draft. But history just isn't on this team's side when it comes to pass catchers.

 

[theincrediblesok]

Maybe the Saints had an offer from another team offering their second round pick, so if the Seahawks really wanted him they had to give up their first round pick. It seems that you think John Schneider is too stupid to have tried what you are suggesting. Do you really believe that there wasn't a team offering their second round pick for Jimmy Graham? Every GM makes mistakes, but I believe that our GM deserves a bit more credit than to think he just lazily goes about making trades. I would think by now he would have earned a little more respect from you.

No, I'm not hacking on John Schneider for it. I don't think he's too stupid to have tried what I'm suggesting. He is in fact quite a brilliant strategist, and I've said so many times myself. There may also have been another team that raised the stakes. I'm not saying he was stupid to make the move--not by any stretch of the imagination. I am saying it's potentially a lot more to pay than many here are thinking. I am saying that we're gonna pay the piper on the offensive line now, and that doing so with an already league-bad offensive line could be disastrous. I am saying that whatever our long-term strategy was with Max Unger, we have created a much bigger liability from an already-established problem area in return for getting a great set of hands.

Of course, we could draft the offensive line equivalents of Sherman and Maxwell and Chancellor this go-'round. Haven't yet done so in four years, but it could happen.

Here's the other thing, we won't know how good another player is until the starter goes out. You think all of a sudden we knew Sherman and Maxwell was good. If it wasn't for Trufant /Thurmond or Browner getting injured we would of never seen how good Sherman, Maxwell and Lane were playing. Real game experiences is what our O-line needs. You can see last year that we didn't start well after Unger left but the line started really coming together by the end of the season. I can see the same thing this year for our line, starts slow but start rolling once some rookies get some game time.

 

[kearly]

I'm not saying that Seattle should stop trying to improve the passing offense. But I don't think getting another big name is the answer. I'm hopeful and believe me when I say I want to see this succeed. And I do believe Graham is a better receiving talent for 2015 than any we'd get in this draft. But history just isn't on this team's side when it comes to pass catchers.

Graham takes care of the need for a post-up guy, and if Matthews pans out we are set in that role. We still need a kickass deep threat through. Right now, Kearse is the only above average deep threat on the team. I still covet Devin Smith, though I don't think we'd have any prayer of getting him now.

 

[hawkfan68]

The perception Graham is soft is way overblown. He's plenty tough. He uses his stiff arm effectively and runs through plenty of tackles to prove his toughness. He was soft against the Seahawks (who arguably is the most physical team in the NFL). Seahawks have made quite a number of players look soft. Can't hold that against Graham. Besides he won't be facing the Seahawk defense on Sunday for the foreseeable future. He adds the things that are needed on this team, a big target, good route runner, and makes catches. Plus he's a proven veteran.

 

[kearly]

I think Graham is a bully type. He talks big and he will beat people up, but if he gets punched in the nose, he runs away squealing. It's not hard to see why the Hawks D disrespects a guy like that. A bit of a fake tough guy.

That said, there are only a small number of teams in the NFL that can expose this side of Graham. And the worst of them was just removed as a threat.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

Unger is out because he couldn't stay healthy and he was costing the team significant money. Unger isn't suddenly anything, he hasn't been healthy since 2012. When healthy he's good, and he'll be good for the Saints if he's healthy for them. But given that Unger has been injured for three out of Pete's five years here, I think he ran out of rope.

Fair point. Of course, previous injury does not guarantee future injury just as previous health does not guarantee future health. He may have run out of rope, but he was one of our better linemen. Hard to see him running out of rope when so many other linemen had so little rope to begin with.

Adding a small handful of sacks over a season is just not that big a deal. As long as it is just a few. Which IMO, is what I expect to happen. Seattle's sack rate next year will be worse than 2014's, but it will be close.

Just because Wilson hasn't had a sack that injured him and caused significant play time lost doesn't mean he has some magical "injury-avoidance" gene. One sack where Wilson leaves the field hobbling or carried off and this place will explode with people screaming at how we haven't addressed our offensive line and now they've killed our franchise quarterback. This is my worst fear for the team, and I see nothing but a draft full of mostly low-round picks as the answer. So far, of course.

I don't measure a player's value by yards, but by contribution per play, and ability to impact a defense. LeVeon Bell had more yards than Lynch last year. Who cares. Graham won't put up video game numbers, but he will have a profound impact on the offense in the areas where Seattle needed help the most.

Pete isn't about racking up yards, he's about racking up wins. Yet he still paid well for a yardage king. That should tell you that Pete thinks Graham is going to help this team win.

We're agreed there. With the caveat that Graham will need the yards to really help this team win. Otherwise we'll just rack up a bunch of third-and-longs and punts like we've done on offense for too many drives the past few years.

This is less a hack on Graham, which I think is a solid addition, but rather just being worried we overpaid to the extent it will hurt us in other areas we can't afford to be hurt more in.

 

[seahawk12thman]

As far as Grahams toughness we will find out. There is no where to run or hide. He is going to be facing the LOB everyday and they will try to punk him the first couple days of practice. Perhaps he has been babied but there is a warrior underneath or perhaps he is soft. He will have to fight his way through practice, if he competes, nobody can stop him period. I wouldn't be surprised to see him be the best tight end in football or a locker room cancer; I don't think there will be an in between.

 

[BlackandGolden]

The worst? So you follow GMs of all teams that well? You're FOS. Loomis does very well.

Excuse me? They are in the worst salary cap situation in the NFL after a 7-9 season, this immediately qualifies him as a candidate for the worst GM this year. He is managing the cap similar to what we saw from the TR years here in Seattle.

A salary cap situation so bad that they had to dump their All Pro tight end that they just signed to a huge deal, and in the process piss off their Hall of Fame franchise QB.

A GM so full of hubris that he deliberately ignored warnings from the NFL and the Owner of the team -- and got his coach, himself, and several players suspended and hit with a giant black eye, and cost the Saints probably 2 extra years of being a Superbowl contender. That is on him, it is a GM's job to appease the league and make sure his coaches are under control and following the rules and by failing to do that by getting on top of the situation, he tarnished the reputation of the franchise AND screwed over several of his players in the process. Not the kind of boss I would want watching my back!

You do realize that if Loomis had done his job, you might actually have 2 Superbowl rings from Brees prime, instead of just 1? (or at least an extra trip).

He reminds me of Bobby Beathard, a guy with an eye for talent, but who could never keep his ego in check, and who constantly struggled with the salary cap situation in the modern NFL age.

You can struggle with the salary cap but still can field a winning team with several playoff seasons.

 

[netskier]

I have read that Graham and Gronk are already consider to be the two best tight ends in history, and both are still in their prime.

Gronk is considered to be the better because of his blocking, but Graham is the better receiver.

It remains to be seen if Pete can direct Bevell to use Graham as a receiver in a way that doesn't injure him. Sort of like using greyhounds to fight pitbulls instead of running past them.

No's Concern about Graham's injury fragility contributed to their willingness to trade him.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

Aw crap. Crap, crap, crap. I knew I was right to be worried! Skip Bayless loves this trade.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RealSkipBayless/status/575750914243342336[/tweet]

 

[Hawkscanner]

It's not a hate/love the trade issue for me. It's about my list of concerns. Which grew. O-line instability with potentially two very inexperienced players at LG and C is a concern. Our OC not being able to maximize his weapons is a concern. I can't project what will happen nearly so well as I can see what has already happened. The facts say that Percy got twice as many yards per catch in New York as here. Miller caught less than half as many passes in Seattle as Oakland. Rice caught way less in Seattle, and Tate caught 99 balls after leaving our offense. History suggests thinking Graham will do anything close to what he did in a pass happy offense in NO is a pipe dream. Which dramatically affects his value. Pass catchers in Seattle simply do not have the value here they have elsewhere. Unless they make a big change to the offense, which when tried last year was an abysmal failure.

Scott,

I hear you and there's a good sized piece of me that agrees with everything you're saying. I recognize all of that along with the past criticisms of the Irvin, Bennett, and the Legion of Boom calling Graham "soft" That said, I find myself conflicted because there's another side of me that's looking at this thing from every angle and sees another side to this deal.

As I said earlier, I think one thing that's got to be factored in is that this move is not just about the here and now -- it's about the future as well. I've got a couple of different thoughts ...

1) Gather Ye Rosebuds While Ye May ...

Sure we are a run first team RIGHT NOW, but for how much longer? How much longer is Marshawn Lynch honestly going to continue to truly be Beast Mode? 1 to 2 years perhaps? Yes, I know he keeps himself in incredible shape, but the facts are he turns 29 next month and with the way he runs, the truth is we're very much on borrowed time here in Seattle. The clock is going to strike midnight and the coach turn back in to a pumpkin at some point. We saw first hand with Shaun Alexander that the line between "awesome" and "awful" isn't a mile -- it's razor thin -- and once RB's hit that line, those days of dominance are generally done. Nobody knows when exactly it's going to happen but when it does, this offense could find itself looking fairly pedestrian real quick this team fails to diversify, evolve, and grow.

Russell Wilson (not Marshawn Lynch) is the future of this team and barring catastrophic injury to either party or a Percy Harvin-esque blow out and escort out of town, I would say the Wilson to Graham connection is one that should be in place for at least the next 5-7 years or so. Wilson has got to have more weapons around him or he's going to get killed.

In the Super Bowl, we all saw what Russell Wilson can do with a tall receiver who can go up for the jump ball. Chris Matthews performance in the SB ... coupled with Gronkowski's performance on the other side were shining examples of what elite height (coupled with elite speed and athleticism in Gronkowski's case) can do for a QB. And in Jimmy Graham, Russell Wilson now has a guy who brings those same basic elements Gronkowski does to this offense.

2) Gentleman, Start Your Engines? ...

The point that you raise about Bevell's seeming inability to maximize the weapons he has at his disposal is certainly a valid one -- in terms of his time in Seattle, that is. As crazy as it may sound, I'm not totally writing off the possibility that we could experience a bit of an offensive boom here in Seattle. The one shred of hope I'm holding on to is the 2009 Vikings. In 2009, Darrell Bevell was named Offensive Coordinator of the Vikings. The team went 12-4 that year and lost the NFC Championship Game 31-28 in OT to the Saints (the eventual Super Bowl winners that year). Here are some of the offensive numbers of that 2009 Vikings Squad ...

2009 Minnesota Vikings (Offensive Statistics) ...

6,074 Total Yards ... 5th Most in the NFL
29.4 Points/Game Average ... 2nd Most in the NFL
4,156 Passing Yards ... 8th Most in the NFL
34 Passing TD's ... Tied for #1 in the NFL
1,918 Rushing Yards ... 13th Most in the NFL
19 Rushing TD's ... Tied for 6th Most in the NFL (Miami and Baltimore tied for #1 with 22 Rushing TD's)

Brett Favre ...363 Comp... 531 Att... 68.4% Pass Comp... 4,202 Pass Yds... 33 TD... 7 INT... 107.2 QB Rating
Sidney Rice ... 83 Rec ... 1,312 Yards ... 8 TD's
Percy Harvin ... 60 Rec ... 790 Yards ... 6 TD's
Visanthe Shiancoe ... 56 Rec ... 560 Yards ... 11 TD's

Adrian Peterson ... 314 Rush Att ... 1,383 Rush Yds ... 4.4 Yds/Rush ... 18 Rushing TD's

So, it HAS happened before that a Bevell Offense has managed to generate yahtzee like offensive numbers.

As I said, I'm not saying I don't have my reservations -- I most certainly do. I'm simply choosing to keep an open mind right now. I'm very curious to see what the final product will ultimately look like on the field.

 

[theincrediblesok]

I have read that Graham and Gronk are already consider to be the two best tight ends in history, and both are still in their prime.

Gronk is considered to be the better because of his blocking, but Graham is the better receiver.

It remains to be seen if Pete can direct Bevell to use Graham as a receiver in a way that doesn't injure him. Sort of like using greyhounds to fight pitbulls instead of running past them.

No's Concern about Graham's injury fragility contributed to their willingness to trade him.

We tried that with Harvin, trying to play nothing but bubble screens worrying more about his injury rather than throwing him any ball over 10 yards. Use Jimmy as he should be used.

 

[netskier]

He has been playing injured for two years I think. I suggest running him deep and or to the outside, and not to the inside much at all, at least until he fully recovers from his injuries. He is essentially undefendable everywhere on the field, so why not maximize his value for the season by minimizing his probability of injury per play?

 

[Hawks46]

Not many teams in the NFL are power-running teams, therefore not may teams in the NFL will select run blockers. They'll fall in the draft into our waiting hands.

That may be the case, but it's not very comforting when you look at the position the past few years. So many of those run blockers have fallen into our waiting hands in the draft that we're blowing up the line yet again and starting over.

A tall, pass-catching TE was definitely a need. Jimmy Graham is definitely someone who can fit that need. Ain't much good when Russell is scrambling too much to even pass to him.

He may be just what the doctor ordered, but one thing's for sure, here's a statement I don't want to see this next year from anyone who's fangirling over this trade right now:

"What good is our 6'7" TE if Russell can't even get him the ball before being sacked!"

Go back and look at Graham's highlights. There's plenty of them where Brees is hitting Graham on a slant in under 2 seconds. Literally, the ball is hiked, Brees gets it, looks and fires that quickly. It's Tom Brady and Peyton Manning quick. That's what Harvin was supposed to bring us, he gets it with instant separation while Graham gets it with size and body positioning. It's why Manning and Brady are so hard to sack when their offense runs right.

It's what we've been missing Russ's entire career here; a guy that you can get the ball to quickly to beat an overload blitz or pass pro breakdown.

Hand wringing over Unger really makes no sense either. Let's say he was significantly better in pass pro and run blocking than his backups. It didn't do any good in the 13 games he's missed in the last 2 years. I'm honestly worried he'll pass the physical.

Graham does a lot of things for us, all of which were major weaknesses for the Seahawks. Interior OL has been a weakness all last year. PFF grades out Sweezy, Unger and Carpenter all negative for pass protection. Russ is used to it, and we worked around it. Graham adds much more than he detracts, and I think he adds more than we lose with Unger. You could literally argue that Graham can upgrade the pass protection by giving Russ an instant outlet.

 

[LickMyNuts]

I have read that Graham and Gronk are already consider to be the two best tight ends in history, and both are still in their prime.

Gronk is considered to be the better because of his blocking, but Graham is the better receiver.

It remains to be seen if Pete can direct Bevell to use Graham as a receiver in a way that doesn't injure him. Sort of like using greyhounds to fight pitbulls instead of running past them.

No's Concern about Graham's injury fragility contributed to their willingness to trade him.

Ever heard of Tony Gonzalez?

 

[Hawks46]

I don't know how Graham can be our 31, which still leaves us with the net loss of a center. I see it as Unger for Graham, and a 4th for a 1st.

Truth is, I don't have a huge problem with the thinking behind the trade. What I hate is all the revising going on around here though. Unger all the sudden got shitty, and Graham lost his warts. The hole at center will be easy to fill, CUZ CABLE! and Bevell is going to be good in the red zone, CUZ GRAHAM! There is a thread filled with predictions of 800 to 1000 yards and 10-14 TDs. Never mind that Zach Miller averaged 56 passes caught per year in Oakland, and 25 in Seattle. Hell, there are predictions that he will learn to block now. Like Helfet and Wilson did, I guess.

Netters gonna net. You don't need to hide behind that to say you don't like the trade.

If 2013 and 2014 never happened, I would probably feel the exact same way you do about this swap. But as things stand, I think Unger was probably one more injury away from being cut.

It's not a hate/love the trade issue for me. It's about my list of concerns. Which grew. O-line instability with potentially two very inexperienced players at LG and C is a concern. Our OC not being able to maximize his weapons is a concern. I can't project what will happen nearly so well as I can see what has already happened. The facts say that Percy got twice as many yards per catch in New York as here. Miller caught less than half as many passes in Seattle as Oakland. Rice caught way less in Seattle, and Tate caught 99 balls after leaving our offense. History suggests thinking Graham will do anything close to what he did in a pass happy offense in NO is a pipe dream. Which dramatically affects his value. Pass catchers in Seattle simply do not have the value here they have elsewhere. Unless they make a big change to the offense, which when tried last year was an abysmal failure.

I agree with everything you said Scotte. Seriously, WRs wither here. Thing is, we throw the ball roughly 20 times a game. If having a large, elite target like Graham that creates physical mismatches can Wilson's completion % from mid 60's to 70% (which doesn't seem unrealistic), that's 14 completions per game.

It doesn't seem unrealistic to me that Graham won't get 5-7 catches per game for 50-70 yards and 10 TDs for the season. If that's his average per game you're looking at 80-112 rec, 800-1120 yards and the aforementioned 10 TDs for the season. Does that seem worth our 1st rounder ? Incidentally, that's what Graham got last year (80 rec for 885 yds and 10 TDs) on a hurt foot for most of the season, with an OL that was every bit as bad in pass pro as ours was, behind which was a QB with a quicker trigger but far less mobile.

It doesn't seem all that far fetched to me to see Graham getting 60-70 receptions for 1000 yards and 10 TDs. That's the bottom of his average in NO. True, they passed a lot more, but we've proven that we don't need volume to be efficient in our offense. We did lead the league last year in explosive plays. Which means the yardage I theorized above isn't unreasonable as he average 10 yards per reception on a hurt foot last year.

 

[ShermanIsland]

Love this trade. Tough to get superstar weapons like this. TD city!

 

[bigskydoc]

Let me get this straight... We just picked up the second best TE in the game, a top ten receiver, in exchange for the worst pick of the 1st round. At the same time we picked up an early 4th round pick for our second weakest remaining offensive lineman, a guy who was on the cusp of getting cut... and people are unhappy about this????

Unger hasn't played at a pro-bowl level for the last two years. He was a respected leader, but he physically isn't our best option at center. That's before we even begin to consider his terrible cost to production ratio. As far as value going into next year I would rank the line Okung >> Sweezy = Britt > Unger > Bailey. The same people who claim that our offensive line is so terrible are the same people claiming it will be difficult to find superior replacements. Cognitive disconnect? I have said for quite some time that we have an average to slightly above average line in pass pro and a elite line in run blocking. I see no problem finding a replacement player of equal quality.

I am so incredibly happy about this deal. This is exactly what we needed for Russ to progress as an elite QB. Graham is a big bodied, elite target for our soon to be highest paid player, a guy who Russ can trust to get the ball on plays where he needs to dump it off on a 2-3 second drop back. He is going to open up the field for the rest of our receivers, and for the dual headed rushing attack.

Love this trade. Love this signing. If it weren't for the fact that the Saints have to shed contracts like a $20 stripper shedding clothes, I would call this highway robbery.





- bsd RPA

 

[Grahamhawker]

Let me get this straight... We just picked up the second best TE in the game, a top ten receiver, in exchange for the worst pick of the 1st round. At the same time we picked up an early 4th round pick for our second weakest remaining offensive lineman, a guy who was on the cusp of getting cut... and people are unhappy about this????

Unger hasn't played at a pro-bowl level for the last two years. He was a respected leader, but he physically isn't our best option at center. That's before we even begin to consider his terrible cost to production ratio. As far as value going into next year I would rank the line Okung >> Sweezy = Britt > Unger > Bailey. The same people who claim that our offensive line is so terrible are the same people claiming it will be difficult to find superior replacements. Cognitive disconnect? I have said for quite some time that we have an average to slightly above average line in pass pro and a elite line in run blocking. I see no problem finding a replacement player of equal quality.

I am so incredibly happy about this deal. This is exactly what we needed for Russ to progress as an elite QB. Graham is a big bodied, elite target for our soon to be highest paid player, a guy who Russ can trust to get the ball on plays where he needs to dump it off on a 2-3 second drop back. He is going to open up the field for the rest of our receivers, and for the dual headed rushing attack.

Love this trade. Love this signing. If it weren't for the fact that the Saints have to shed contracts like a $20 stripper shedding clothes, I would call this highway robbery.





- bsd RPA

Glad I'm not the only one who sees it this way.

Yep, that's pretty much the situation.

It's Jimmy Freakin' Graham!

XOXO Chris Farley

 

[VancitySeahawk]

Green Bay, NE and the Colts did pretty well this year with mid/late and underrated rookie centers.


It is a lot easier to find a good center than it is to find one of the best receiving TEs of all time.