Max Kellerman on Seahawks

[Sgt. Largent]

Or do we just blame Pete every year we don't win a SB. It's a lazy argument and doesn't take into account other factors that are very important, most importantly Russell himself. I don't love what Pete and John did from 2014-2019 personnel and drafting wise, but if we're saying Russell's career has been wasted, then some of that blame needs to fall on Russell.

We can argue about percentage of blame, but for me it's at least 50%. Dude stunk for most of the 2nd half of the season last year, including an abysmal four game stretch where he turned the ball over six times........AFTER Pete supposedly "let Russ cook."

Another thing that needs to be noted. How many times in Wilsons tenure has he pulled Carrolls butt out of the fire with his 4th quarter heroics? You know, when Carrolls game plan gets thrown out the window because it has to in order to win? How many times?

Fool me once,,shame on you. Fool me twice,,shame on me. Fool somebody over and over,,they are just being blind. Carroll blinds a lot of fans.

You never answered my question.

How far into the playoffs do the Hawks need to go with Russell for you to stop blaming Pete for being the most successful coach in franchise history making the playoffs ever year in the toughest division in football.

The problem isn't Pete, it's unrealistic fans like you that assume just because their team has a top 5-10 QB that somehow gives them automatic entrance into a decade of Superbowl berths.

The league is rigged, rigged to not allow this. So replace Pete with any coach of your choosing, and it's probably not going to be better for Russell. In fact, it'd probably be worse.

 

[John63]

Or do we just blame Pete every year we don't win a SB. It's a lazy argument and doesn't take into account other factors that are very important, most importantly Russell himself. I don't love what Pete and John did from 2014-2019 personnel and drafting wise, but if we're saying Russell's career has been wasted, then some of that blame needs to fall on Russell.

We can argue about percentage of blame, but for me it's at least 50%. Dude stunk for most of the 2nd half of the season last year, including an abysmal four game stretch where he turned the ball over six times........AFTER Pete supposedly "let Russ cook."

Another thing that needs to be noted. How many times in Wilsons tenure has he pulled Carrolls butt out of the fire with his 4th quarter heroics? You know, when Carrolls game plan gets thrown out the window because it has to in order to win? How many times?

Fool me once,,shame on you. Fool me twice,,shame on me. Fool somebody over and over,,they are just being blind. Carroll blinds a lot of fans.

You never answered my question.

How far into the playoffs do the Hawks need to go with Russell for you to stop blaming Pete for being the most successful coach in franchise history making the playoffs ever year in the toughest division in football.

The problem isn't Pete, it's unrealistic fans like you that assume just because their team has a top 5-10 QB that somehow gives them automatic entrance into a decade of Superbowl berths.

The league is rigged, rigged to not allow this. So replace Pete with any coach of your choosing, and it's probably not going to be better for Russell. In fact, it'd probably be worse.

I agree somewhat to your premise, however the reality is PC, like Wilson, like every player on this team as fault in some of our shortcomings. I do not agree that a different coach would result sin the same or worse results. PC wants to run his system regardless of the talent, Most good Coaches mold a system to suite the talent. PC my his own words admits he is not a offensive guru, and every OC he has selected were run first OCs, and most of the olnne he has gotten have been known to run blockers and weak pass blockers. What would have happened if we had an offensive minded coach or an OC given 100% autonomy, and they focused on pass blockers. KC saw their oline pass blocking was bad just this past year adn they addressed it asap. We have had a bad pass blocking oline since PC has been here and other than Brown and the new guy they got all the o lineman our known run blockers and weak pass blockers. Worse we continue to run the run and chunk pass play offense. Hopefully that will change this year. Maybe PC has learned finally.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Or do we just blame Pete every year we don't win a SB. It's a lazy argument and doesn't take into account other factors that are very important, most importantly Russell himself. I don't love what Pete and John did from 2014-2019 personnel and drafting wise, but if we're saying Russell's career has been wasted, then some of that blame needs to fall on Russell.

We can argue about percentage of blame, but for me it's at least 50%. Dude stunk for most of the 2nd half of the season last year, including an abysmal four game stretch where he turned the ball over six times........AFTER Pete supposedly "let Russ cook."

Another thing that needs to be noted. How many times in Wilsons tenure has he pulled Carrolls butt out of the fire with his 4th quarter heroics? You know, when Carrolls game plan gets thrown out the window because it has to in order to win? How many times?

Fool me once,,shame on you. Fool me twice,,shame on me. Fool somebody over and over,,they are just being blind. Carroll blinds a lot of fans.

You never answered my question.

How far into the playoffs do the Hawks need to go with Russell for you to stop blaming Pete for being the most successful coach in franchise history making the playoffs ever year in the toughest division in football.

The problem isn't Pete, it's unrealistic fans like you that assume just because their team has a top 5-10 QB that somehow gives them automatic entrance into a decade of Superbowl berths.

The league is rigged, rigged to not allow this. So replace Pete with any coach of your choosing, and it's probably not going to be better for Russell. In fact, it'd probably be worse.

With a top 5 QB like Wilson, you should be able to get past the 2nd round at least once in awhile. Seattle cant. You like to mention Pete being the most successful coach in Seattles history, but refuse to acknowledge that Wilson is the reason why. Petes NFL record without Russ speaks for itself.

The problem is Pete. He gets outcoached so often that it should be clearly evident to everybody. How or why people cant see that or refuse to admit it is baffling. As for Wilsons results without Pete,,,,,we'll see soon enough.

 

[Ad Hawk]

For any coach to have success over the long-haul, he needs a very good quarterback.

To win successfully in and throughout the post-season, you need a stacked team, healthy depth, and the stars to align, along with your QB.

These PC vs. RW arguments are interesting at times, but rather useless in proving anything beyond the fact that some opinions on here are deeply held, and won't change even with strong evidence.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Or do we just blame Pete every year we don't win a SB. It's a lazy argument and doesn't take into account other factors that are very important, most importantly Russell himself. I don't love what Pete and John did from 2014-2019 personnel and drafting wise, but if we're saying Russell's career has been wasted, then some of that blame needs to fall on Russell.

We can argue about percentage of blame, but for me it's at least 50%. Dude stunk for most of the 2nd half of the season last year, including an abysmal four game stretch where he turned the ball over six times........AFTER Pete supposedly "let Russ cook."

Another thing that needs to be noted. How many times in Wilsons tenure has he pulled Carrolls butt out of the fire with his 4th quarter heroics? You know, when Carrolls game plan gets thrown out the window because it has to in order to win? How many times?

Fool me once,,shame on you. Fool me twice,,shame on me. Fool somebody over and over,,they are just being blind. Carroll blinds a lot of fans.

You never answered my question.

How far into the playoffs do the Hawks need to go with Russell for you to stop blaming Pete for being the most successful coach in franchise history making the playoffs ever year in the toughest division in football.

The problem isn't Pete, it's unrealistic fans like you that assume just because their team has a top 5-10 QB that somehow gives them automatic entrance into a decade of Superbowl berths.

The league is rigged, rigged to not allow this. So replace Pete with any coach of your choosing, and it's probably not going to be better for Russell. In fact, it'd probably be worse.

With a top 5 QB like Wilson, you should be able to get past the 2nd round at least once in awhile. Seattle cant. You like to mention Pete being the most successful coach in Seattles history, but refuse to acknowledge that Wilson is the reason why. Petes NFL record without Russ speaks for itself.

The problem is Pete. He gets outcoached so often that it should be clearly evident to everybody. How or why people cant see that or refuse to admit it is baffling. As for Wilsons results without Pete,,,,,we'll see soon enough.

Pete is the reason we won a SB, and went to another, not Russell. Russell was a game manager in those early days. Pete built that defense, Pete created that culture from the ground up. Pete's molded the organization into one of the most enviable and most copied in the entire league.

Is Pete responsible for the roster building and coaching failures since 2015? Yep, he's mainly to blame. But to say Russell's the reason for Pete's success isn't being honest to this conversation. Pete and John are the ones who gave a 5'10 3rd round QB a chance to become the QB Russell's become.

I don't compartmentalize success like you, it's a group effort....and so is failure.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

They don't come close to a Super Bowl without Russell. Period.

 

[John63]

They don't come close to a Super Bowl without Russell. Period.

agreed

PC record as HC without Wilson 480% with only 1 winning season. This includes 2 years with a top defense and run game
PC record with Wilson 681% this includes never having a losing record and 5 years without a top defense and 3 of those 5 without a d top defense or running game to include a year were the Qb accounted for 81% of the total offensive yards and 97% of the offensive TDs and was our leading rusher,

 

[SoulfishHawk]

They won as a team. It wasn't just Russ, it wasn't just the D and Running Game. It was ALL OF IT.
But to act like this team is even a playoff contender w/out Russ is beyond stupid. And people have been doing it for years. :yawn:

 

[Atradees]

The drafting has become so poor we are trading all our picks for free agents. The staff is becoming desperate. Everyone must know its win right now or its time to rebuild. Not signing a guy we went all in with doesn't help(Adams). Not resigning the LT. Handing out huge deals to wide receivers.....one year contracts and reclamation gimmicks are becoming the norm. AND its not panning out these reclamation players.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Another thing that needs to be noted. How many times in Wilsons tenure has he pulled Carrolls butt out of the fire with his 4th quarter heroics? You know, when Carrolls game plan gets thrown out the window because it has to in order to win? How many times?

Fool me once,,shame on you. Fool me twice,,shame on me. Fool somebody over and over,,they are just being blind. Carroll blinds a lot of fans.

You never answered my question.

How far into the playoffs do the Hawks need to go with Russell for you to stop blaming Pete for being the most successful coach in franchise history making the playoffs ever year in the toughest division in football.

The problem isn't Pete, it's unrealistic fans like you that assume just because their team has a top 5-10 QB that somehow gives them automatic entrance into a decade of Superbowl berths.

The league is rigged, rigged to not allow this. So replace Pete with any coach of your choosing, and it's probably not going to be better for Russell. In fact, it'd probably be worse.

With a top 5 QB like Wilson, you should be able to get past the 2nd round at least once in awhile. Seattle cant. You like to mention Pete being the most successful coach in Seattles history, but refuse to acknowledge that Wilson is the reason why. Petes NFL record without Russ speaks for itself.

The problem is Pete. He gets outcoached so often that it should be clearly evident to everybody. How or why people cant see that or refuse to admit it is baffling. As for Wilsons results without Pete,,,,,we'll see soon enough.

Pete is the reason we won a SB, and went to another, not Russell. Russell was a game manager in those early days. Pete built that defense, Pete created that culture from the ground up. Pete's molded the organization into one of the most enviable and most copied in the entire league.

Is Pete responsible for the roster building and coaching failures since 2015? Yep, he's mainly to blame. But to say Russell's the reason for Pete's success isn't being honest to this conversation. Pete and John are the ones who gave a 5'10 3rd round QB a chance to become the QB Russell's become.

I don't compartmentalize success like you, it's a group effort....and so is failure.

I give Pete all the credit in the world for poaching those college players and building a great defense. Lets face it, that defense was so good that it allowed Pete to coach the way he wanted to and they still won. The problem is that Pete was the reason why that defense disbanded too. Won a Super Bowl one year and lost the locker room the next.

You are even admitting that its on Pete since 2015 so not sure why we are having this argument. Yes, Pete built a roster and won a Super Bowl, but since then, Wilson has been carrying this team. Again, Pete won one Super Bowl (with a loaded roster) so fans give him an automatic pass. Well its been 7 years now. How many more years of early playoff exits do you need before admitting Carroll might not be that genius head coach you think he is?

 

[John63]

Another thing that needs to be noted. How many times in Wilsons tenure has he pulled Carrolls butt out of the fire with his 4th quarter heroics? You know, when Carrolls game plan gets thrown out the window because it has to in order to win? How many times?

Fool me once,,shame on you. Fool me twice,,shame on me. Fool somebody over and over,,they are just being blind. Carroll blinds a lot of fans.

You never answered my question.

How far into the playoffs do the Hawks need to go with Russell for you to stop blaming Pete for being the most successful coach in franchise history making the playoffs ever year in the toughest division in football.

The problem isn't Pete, it's unrealistic fans like you that assume just because their team has a top 5-10 QB that somehow gives them automatic entrance into a decade of Superbowl berths.

The league is rigged, rigged to not allow this. So replace Pete with any coach of your choosing, and it's probably not going to be better for Russell. In fact, it'd probably be worse.

With a top 5 QB like Wilson, you should be able to get past the 2nd round at least once in awhile. Seattle cant. You like to mention Pete being the most successful coach in Seattles history, but refuse to acknowledge that Wilson is the reason why. Petes NFL record without Russ speaks for itself.

The problem is Pete. He gets outcoached so often that it should be clearly evident to everybody. How or why people cant see that or refuse to admit it is baffling. As for Wilsons results without Pete,,,,,we'll see soon enough.

Pete is the reason we won a SB, and went to another, not Russell. Russell was a game manager in those early days. Pete built that defense, Pete created that culture from the ground up. Pete's molded the organization into one of the most enviable and most copied in the entire league.

Is Pete responsible for the roster building and coaching failures since 2015? Yep, he's mainly to blame. But to say Russell's the reason for Pete's success isn't being honest to this conversation. Pete and John are the ones who gave a 5'10 3rd round QB a chance to become the QB Russell's become.

I don't compartmentalize success like you, it's a group effort....and so is failure.

Okay so PC is totally responsible for the SB but only mainly for everything else.

So what happened in 2011, he had the #1 scoring defense, and the #4 rushing offense and yet 7-9, They get Wilson and well you know they were 1 defensive breakdown from the SB

Lets look at that your game manager who was top 10 in tds, top 10 in Qb rating, top 10 QBR, top 5 in YPA hmm don't know many game managers that had very little to do with an SB run in a season with those stats. he had to bring the Hawks back 4 times to win the SB year and let's not forget the SF game to even get us into the SB. Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble but the FACTS show he was much more than a game manager and without him, we don't even get to the Sb. Oh by the way your 2nd leading rusher the Sb year was Wilson. To help you more Wilson accounted for 69% of the total offensive Yards, and 66% of the TDs. So lets compare

Brady the supposed GOAT that same year he accounted for 68% of the total yards and 55% of totla TDs but wait he is the GOAT and yet Wilson accounted for more yards and tds but... like I said your wrong the FACTS show it.

 

[knownone]

You never answered my question.

How far into the playoffs do the Hawks need to go with Russell for you to stop blaming Pete for being the most successful coach in franchise history making the playoffs ever year in the toughest division in football.

The problem isn't Pete, it's unrealistic fans like you that assume just because their team has a top 5-10 QB that somehow gives them automatic entrance into a decade of Superbowl berths.

The league is rigged, rigged to not allow this. So replace Pete with any coach of your choosing, and it's probably not going to be better for Russell. In fact, it'd probably be worse.

With a top 5 QB like Wilson, you should be able to get past the 2nd round at least once in awhile. Seattle cant. You like to mention Pete being the most successful coach in Seattles history, but refuse to acknowledge that Wilson is the reason why. Petes NFL record without Russ speaks for itself.

The problem is Pete. He gets outcoached so often that it should be clearly evident to everybody. How or why people cant see that or refuse to admit it is baffling. As for Wilsons results without Pete,,,,,we'll see soon enough.

Pete is the reason we won a SB, and went to another, not Russell. Russell was a game manager in those early days. Pete built that defense, Pete created that culture from the ground up. Pete's molded the organization into one of the most enviable and most copied in the entire league.

Is Pete responsible for the roster building and coaching failures since 2015? Yep, he's mainly to blame. But to say Russell's the reason for Pete's success isn't being honest to this conversation. Pete and John are the ones who gave a 5'10 3rd round QB a chance to become the QB Russell's become.

I don't compartmentalize success like you, it's a group effort....and so is failure.

Okay so PC is totally responsible for the SB but only mainly for everything else.

So what happened in 2011, he had the #1 scoring defense, and the #4 rushing offense and yet 7-9, They get Wilson and well you know they were 1 defensive breakdown from the SB

Lets look at that your game manager who was top 10 in tds, top 10 in Qb rating, top 10 QBR, top 5 in YPA hmm don't know many game managers that had very little to do with an SB run in a season with those stats. he had to bring the Hawks back 4 times to win the SB year and let's not forget the SF game to even get us into the SB. Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble but the FACTS show he was much more than a game manager and without him, we don't even get to the Sb. Oh by the way your 2nd leading rusher the Sb year was Wilson. To help you more Wilson accounted for 69% of the total offensive Yards, and 66% of the TDs. So lets compare

Brady the supposed GOAT that same year he accounted for 68% of the total yards and 55% of totla TDs but wait he is the GOAT and yet Wilson accounted for more yards and tds but... like I said your wrong the FACTS show it.

2011 actually disproves your point. Sherman, Chancellor, Browner, KJ, and Baldwin were either rookies or making their first starts. They were 2-6 to start the season. Then Sherman got settled in as a starter, and they finished the season 5-3. T-Jack played 10 games the season with a torn pec, and they were 16 total points away from going 12-4 that year. This is with Whitehurst losing the most boring game in NFL history against Cleveland.

I love Russ. But there is no question that team makes the playoffs with a semi-competent QB. I'm not going to say they win a Superbowl without him, but it takes some serious revisionist history to think that Pete and the LOB don't do damage without him. That's the greatest defense of the modern era and the second-best RB of his generation. They are winning games.

 

[John63]

With a top 5 QB like Wilson, you should be able to get past the 2nd round at least once in awhile. Seattle cant. You like to mention Pete being the most successful coach in Seattles history, but refuse to acknowledge that Wilson is the reason why. Petes NFL record without Russ speaks for itself.

The problem is Pete. He gets outcoached so often that it should be clearly evident to everybody. How or why people cant see that or refuse to admit it is baffling. As for Wilsons results without Pete,,,,,we'll see soon enough.

Pete is the reason we won a SB, and went to another, not Russell. Russell was a game manager in those early days. Pete built that defense, Pete created that culture from the ground up. Pete's molded the organization into one of the most enviable and most copied in the entire league.

Is Pete responsible for the roster building and coaching failures since 2015? Yep, he's mainly to blame. But to say Russell's the reason for Pete's success isn't being honest to this conversation. Pete and John are the ones who gave a 5'10 3rd round QB a chance to become the QB Russell's become.

I don't compartmentalize success like you, it's a group effort....and so is failure.

Okay so PC is totally responsible for the SB but only mainly for everything else.

So what happened in 2011, he had the #1 scoring defense, and the #4 rushing offense and yet 7-9, They get Wilson and well you know they were 1 defensive breakdown from the SB

Lets look at that your game manager who was top 10 in tds, top 10 in Qb rating, top 10 QBR, top 5 in YPA hmm don't know many game managers that had very little to do with an SB run in a season with those stats. he had to bring the Hawks back 4 times to win the SB year and let's not forget the SF game to even get us into the SB. Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble but the FACTS show he was much more than a game manager and without him, we don't even get to the Sb. Oh by the way your 2nd leading rusher the Sb year was Wilson. To help you more Wilson accounted for 69% of the total offensive Yards, and 66% of the TDs. So lets compare

Brady the supposed GOAT that same year he accounted for 68% of the total yards and 55% of totla TDs but wait he is the GOAT and yet Wilson accounted for more yards and tds but... like I said your wrong the FACTS show it.

2011 actually disproves your point. Sherman, Chancellor, Browner, KJ, and Baldwin were either rookies or making their first starts. They were 2-6 to start the season. Then Sherman got settled in as a starter, and they finished the season 5-3. T-Jack played 10 games the season with a torn pec, and they were 16 total points away from going 12-4 that year. This is with Whitehurst losing the most boring game in NFL history against Cleveland.

I love Russ. But there is no question that team makes the playoffs with a semi-competent QB. I'm not going to say they win a Superbowl without him, but it takes some serious revisionist history to think that Pete and the LOB don't do damage without him. That's the greatest defense of the modern era and the second-best RB of his generation. They are winning games.

That they had the year before and went 7-9. They had a top 10 scoring defense in 2011 and the 4th best rush game so my point stands. One of the biggest difference from 2011 to 2012 was the extra 7 points a game they scored on offense. As well as the extra 800 yards rushing 500 of which was by Wilson.. As to the injury etc that's part of the game. Baltimore won an SB with a great run and defense and a qb that was not even avg. And again Wilson won 4 games in the 4th qtr and ot our sb year. A competent qb would have done as just a competent qb does not bring teams back like that.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

You are even admitting that its on Pete since 2015 so not sure why we are having this argument. Yes, Pete built a roster and won a Super Bowl, but since then, Wilson has been carrying this team. Again, Pete won one Super Bowl (with a loaded roster) so fans give him an automatic pass. Well its been 7 years now. How many more years of early playoff exits do you need before admitting Carroll might not be that genius head coach you think he is?

How much longer am I willing to wait? I'm willing to wait to see if the combo of Pete, John and Russell can get back to another SB, and I think we're on the right track.

The draft and player acquisition has been much better the past 2-3 years, and the Waldron hiring is a signal that Pete knows he needs to change his offensive philosophies. All good signs.

Now if after the next 2-3 years Russell's gone and the marriage of Pete and John sour and break up? Then I'm with you, it's time for a change.

 

[jlwaters1]

So did the Colts with Manning and the Dolphins Marino. That's how the NFL works sometimes. Aside from Tom Brady, a case could be made that every NFL team in the free agency era has wasted their star QB's prime.

So did the Packer's with Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. This is the norm not the exception.

 

[pittpnthrs]

You are even admitting that its on Pete since 2015 so not sure why we are having this argument. Yes, Pete built a roster and won a Super Bowl, but since then, Wilson has been carrying this team. Again, Pete won one Super Bowl (with a loaded roster) so fans give him an automatic pass. Well its been 7 years now. How many more years of early playoff exits do you need before admitting Carroll might not be that genius head coach you think he is?

How much longer am I willing to wait? I'm willing to wait to see if the combo of Pete, John and Russell can get back to another SB, and I think we're on the right track.

The draft and player acquisition has been much better the past 2-3 years, and the Waldron hiring is a signal that Pete knows he needs to change his offensive philosophies. All good signs.

Now if after the next 2-3 years Russell's gone and the marriage of Pete and John sour and break up? Then I'm with you, it's time for a change.

I hear you and thats all great. I just dont agree with any of it. Waldron is an unknown and will be the 4th OC under Pete (the other 3 didnt leave for brighter pastures, they were all fired) and people feel he's going to be some kind of savior for some reason. Its common knowledge that at some point in the season, after Russ throws a couple picks in a game like every NFL QB in the league, Petes going to revert the offense back to 'Pete Ball' nullifying any changes made, thus I dont feel Waldron is going to be the huge factor everybody feels he will be. Plus he's a protege of McVay who coaches a conference rival. Hard to think that McVay wont recognize or know everything Waldrons trying to do. Students dont usually beat the teachers.

I feel the time for change was 2-3 years ago., not 2-3 years to come.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

You are even admitting that its on Pete since 2015 so not sure why we are having this argument. Yes, Pete built a roster and won a Super Bowl, but since then, Wilson has been carrying this team. Again, Pete won one Super Bowl (with a loaded roster) so fans give him an automatic pass. Well its been 7 years now. How many more years of early playoff exits do you need before admitting Carroll might not be that genius head coach you think he is?

How much longer am I willing to wait? I'm willing to wait to see if the combo of Pete, John and Russell can get back to another SB, and I think we're on the right track.

The draft and player acquisition has been much better the past 2-3 years, and the Waldron hiring is a signal that Pete knows he needs to change his offensive philosophies. All good signs.

Now if after the next 2-3 years Russell's gone and the marriage of Pete and John sour and break up? Then I'm with you, it's time for a change.

I hear you and thats all great. I just dont agree with any of it. Waldron is an unknown and will be the 4th OC under Pete (the other 3 didnt leave for brighter pastures, they were all fired) and people feel he's going to be some kind of savior for some reason. Its common knowledge that at some point in the season, after Russ throws a couple picks in a game like every NFL QB in the league, Petes going to revert the offense back to 'Pete Ball' nullifying any changes made, thus I dont feel Waldron is going to be the huge factor everybody feels he will be. Plus he's a protege of McVay who coaches a conference rival. Hard to think that McVay wont recognize or know everything Waldrons trying to do. Students dont usually beat the teachers.

I feel the time for change was 2-3 years ago., not 2-3 years to come.

I'm down for this conversation.

So who was available 2-3 years ago that if you were Jody Allen after firing Pete and John, you would have hired as your new GM/coach combo?

Also, can you tell me any coach and GM that were fired after having as much success as Pete and John making the playoffs and winning divisions? I can't think of any.

 

[John63]

You are even admitting that its on Pete since 2015 so not sure why we are having this argument. Yes, Pete built a roster and won a Super Bowl, but since then, Wilson has been carrying this team. Again, Pete won one Super Bowl (with a loaded roster) so fans give him an automatic pass. Well its been 7 years now. How many more years of early playoff exits do you need before admitting Carroll might not be that genius head coach you think he is?

How much longer am I willing to wait? I'm willing to wait to see if the combo of Pete, John and Russell can get back to another SB, and I think we're on the right track.

The draft and player acquisition has been much better the past 2-3 years, and the Waldron hiring is a signal that Pete knows he needs to change his offensive philosophies. All good signs.

Now if after the next 2-3 years Russell's gone and the marriage of Pete and John sour and break up? Then I'm with you, it's time for a change.

I hear you and thats all great. I just dont agree with any of it. Waldron is an unknown and will be the 4th OC under Pete (the other 3 didnt leave for brighter pastures, they were all fired) and people feel he's going to be some kind of savior for some reason. Its common knowledge that at some point in the season, after Russ throws a couple picks in a game like every NFL QB in the league, Petes going to revert the offense back to 'Pete Ball' nullifying any changes made, thus I dont feel Waldron is going to be the huge factor everybody feels he will be. Plus he's a protege of McVay who coaches a conference rival. Hard to think that McVay wont recognize or know everything Waldrons trying to do. Students dont usually beat the teachers.

I feel the time for change was 2-3 years ago., not 2-3 years to come.

I totally agree this is a big year if PC goes back to Pete ball as soon as there is a bad game then we will not get any place. What's interesting is when Pete ball has a bad game his answer is to go further down the Pete ball trail. this will be an interesting year for PC.

 

[knownone]

Pete is the reason we won a SB, and went to another, not Russell. Russell was a game manager in those early days. Pete built that defense, Pete created that culture from the ground up. Pete's molded the organization into one of the most enviable and most copied in the entire league.

Is Pete responsible for the roster building and coaching failures since 2015? Yep, he's mainly to blame. But to say Russell's the reason for Pete's success isn't being honest to this conversation. Pete and John are the ones who gave a 5'10 3rd round QB a chance to become the QB Russell's become.

I don't compartmentalize success like you, it's a group effort....and so is failure.

Okay so PC is totally responsible for the SB but only mainly for everything else.

So what happened in 2011, he had the #1 scoring defense, and the #4 rushing offense and yet 7-9, They get Wilson and well you know they were 1 defensive breakdown from the SB

Lets look at that your game manager who was top 10 in tds, top 10 in Qb rating, top 10 QBR, top 5 in YPA hmm don't know many game managers that had very little to do with an SB run in a season with those stats. he had to bring the Hawks back 4 times to win the SB year and let's not forget the SF game to even get us into the SB. Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble but the FACTS show he was much more than a game manager and without him, we don't even get to the Sb. Oh by the way your 2nd leading rusher the Sb year was Wilson. To help you more Wilson accounted for 69% of the total offensive Yards, and 66% of the TDs. So lets compare

Brady the supposed GOAT that same year he accounted for 68% of the total yards and 55% of totla TDs but wait he is the GOAT and yet Wilson accounted for more yards and tds but... like I said your wrong the FACTS show it.

2011 actually disproves your point. Sherman, Chancellor, Browner, KJ, and Baldwin were either rookies or making their first starts. They were 2-6 to start the season. Then Sherman got settled in as a starter, and they finished the season 5-3. T-Jack played 10 games the season with a torn pec, and they were 16 total points away from going 12-4 that year. This is with Whitehurst losing the most boring game in NFL history against Cleveland.

I love Russ. But there is no question that team makes the playoffs with a semi-competent QB. I'm not going to say they win a Superbowl without him, but it takes some serious revisionist history to think that Pete and the LOB don't do damage without him. That's the greatest defense of the modern era and the second-best RB of his generation. They are winning games.

That they had the year before and went 7-9. They had a top 10 scoring defense in 2011 and the 4th best rush game so my point stands. One of the biggest difference from 2011 to 2012 was the extra 7 points a game they scored on offense. As well as the extra 800 yards rushing 500 of which was by Wilson.. As to the injury etc that's part of the game. Baltimore won an SB with a great run and defense and a qb that was not even avg. And again Wilson won 4 games in the 4th qtr and ot our sb year. A competent qb would have done as just a competent qb does not bring teams back like that.

Wait, what point still stands? I just explained why that team finished 7-9. If T-Jack doesn't get injured, and Sherman starts the season, they were most likely a playoff team in 2011. If injuries are "part of the game," we could apply your argument to the 2017 Seahawks as a negative against Russ. That team was objectively better than 2011 and missed the playoffs because of injuries.

Baltimore did not win a Superbowl when their best players on defense were rookies and first-year starters. It's also worth noting that Russell inherited a better defense than the one we had in 2011, and the difference between the two is not even close statistically. Seriously, the 2013 defense technically had 6 different starters than the 2011 defense, and that includes names like Wagner, Bennett, Avril, Irvin, Maxwell, etc.

Game-winning drives are a meaningless indicator. For example, Jared Goff, Baker Mayfield, Case Keenum, Andy Dalton, Blake Bortles, Derrick Carr, Eli Manning, Marcus Mariota, etc., all had 4 of them in one season. Are they competent?

 

[John63]

Okay so PC is totally responsible for the SB but only mainly for everything else.

So what happened in 2011, he had the #1 scoring defense, and the #4 rushing offense and yet 7-9, They get Wilson and well you know they were 1 defensive breakdown from the SB

Lets look at that your game manager who was top 10 in tds, top 10 in Qb rating, top 10 QBR, top 5 in YPA hmm don't know many game managers that had very little to do with an SB run in a season with those stats. he had to bring the Hawks back 4 times to win the SB year and let's not forget the SF game to even get us into the SB. Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble but the FACTS show he was much more than a game manager and without him, we don't even get to the Sb. Oh by the way your 2nd leading rusher the Sb year was Wilson. To help you more Wilson accounted for 69% of the total offensive Yards, and 66% of the TDs. So lets compare

Brady the supposed GOAT that same year he accounted for 68% of the total yards and 55% of totla TDs but wait he is the GOAT and yet Wilson accounted for more yards and tds but... like I said your wrong the FACTS show it.

2011 actually disproves your point. Sherman, Chancellor, Browner, KJ, and Baldwin were either rookies or making their first starts. They were 2-6 to start the season. Then Sherman got settled in as a starter, and they finished the season 5-3. T-Jack played 10 games the season with a torn pec, and they were 16 total points away from going 12-4 that year. This is with Whitehurst losing the most boring game in NFL history against Cleveland.

I love Russ. But there is no question that team makes the playoffs with a semi-competent QB. I'm not going to say they win a Superbowl without him, but it takes some serious revisionist history to think that Pete and the LOB don't do damage without him. That's the greatest defense of the modern era and the second-best RB of his generation. They are winning games.

That they had the year before and went 7-9. They had a top 10 scoring defense in 2011 and the 4th best rush game so my point stands. One of the biggest difference from 2011 to 2012 was the extra 7 points a game they scored on offense. As well as the extra 800 yards rushing 500 of which was by Wilson.. As to the injury etc that's part of the game. Baltimore won an SB with a great run and defense and a qb that was not even avg. And again Wilson won 4 games in the 4th qtr and ot our sb year. A competent qb would have done as just a competent qb does not bring teams back like that.

Wait, what point still stands? I just explained why that team finished 7-9. If T-Jack doesn't get injured, and Sherman starts the season, they were most likely a playoff team in 2011. If injuries are "part of the game," we could apply your argument to the 2017 Seahawks as a negative against Russ. That team was objectively better than 2011 and missed the playoffs because of injuries.

Baltimore did not win a Superbowl when their best players on defense were rookies and first-year starters. It's also worth noting that Russell inherited a better defense than the one we had in 2011, and the difference between the two is not even close statistically. Seriously, the 2013 defense technically had 6 different starters than the 2011 defense, and that includes names like Wagner, Bennett, Avril, Irvin, Maxwell, etc.

Game-winning drives are a meaningless indicator. For example, Jared Goff, Baker Mayfield, Case Keenum, Andy Dalton, Blake Bortles, Derrick Carr, Eli Manning, Marcus Mariota, etc., all had 4 of them in one season. Are they competent?

No you just explained why the Seahawks dealt with the same issues every team does called injuries. amazing though how other coaches figure it out. again they had a top 10 run game and scoring defense that year. According to some on this board any Qb could have gotten us to the sb the year Wilson did with a top scoring defense and run game so the same holds true for the year before when they had the same thing. FYi 2011 Jackson played 15 of the 16 games.

So simple 2011 top 10 scoring defense, top 10 run game starting Qb played 15 of 16 games, and they were 7-9.
2012 top 10 scoring defense, top 10 run game different Qb 12-4 and 30 seconds and defensive let down form the SB. My point still stands thanks for playing. As to you dismissing facts that prove my point I get it, its easier to try to dismiss the facts than admit your wrong.