Mariners Offseason Thread 2014-2015

[Sports Hernia]

He doesnt like to overspend, but just signed a player to $250 million contract. Cant make it up (almost as good as "Good position players= Chone Figgins").

Yes every 5-6 years we open up the wallet and go crazy on ONE free agent.

But we needed 2-3 bats last year, not one. If you're gonna sign Cano, why the hell wouldn't you give Nelson Cruz the extra 1-2M he was looking for or the two year deal Morales wanted?

It's the little things like this that drive me F'ing crazy as an M's fan. It's like the FO doesn't even care about competing for a World Series, they just want to placate the masses and be ALMOST competitive.

IMO this club won't ever turn the corner until there's new ownership and the tweedle dee and tweedle dumb duo of Lincoln and Armstrong are finally gone.

I agree for the most part. ......FYI though, Armstromg is gone, Howie is still there though.

Unfortunately Lincoln is the main problem.

Yes, that is a huge problem.

 

[Uncle Si]

He doesnt like to overspend, but just signed a player to $250 million contract. Cant make it up (almost as good as "Good position players= Chone Figgins").

Yes every 5-6 years we open up the wallet and go crazy on ONE free agent.

But we needed 2-3 bats last year, not one. If you're gonna sign Cano, why the hell wouldn't you give Nelson Cruz the extra 1-2M he was looking for or the two year deal Morales wanted?

It's the little things like this that drive me F'ing crazy as an M's fan. It's like the FO doesn't even care about competing for a World Series, they just want to placate the masses and be ALMOST competitive.

IMO this club won't ever turn the corner until there's new ownership and the tweedle dee and tweedle dumb duo of Lincoln and Armstrong are finally gone.

Here we go again with the Lincoln/Armstrong shout. I guess its simple. Why didnt we sign Cruz? Because Nelso Cruz was coming off a decent year, was asking for a multi year deal and just came off a recent steroid suspension. Theres a good chance that he wanted a one year deal in a hitters park. He went from 27 HRs to 40. I'd say it worked for him. Not every free agent decision comes down to the team (these guys do make up their own minds).

The idea they dont care is ridiculous. Baseball is about timing, and without Nelson Cruz they had one of the biggest turnarounds in the league last year and missed the playoffs by a game. they've managed to keep the best baseball pitcher in the AL on the roster, have kept him happy (seemingly) and their plan for surrounding him with players is coming to fruition.

This is what drives me crazy about baseball fans. the notion that it can all happen at once. It took that Royals roster 6-8 years to finally come good. Giants and Cardinals build through their systems and sprinkle in free agents as they go. The Yankees and Red Sox, with all of their spending, still relied on farm system players to become super stars, then paid them. The Ms have been waiting for their younger players to come good. they've kept Felix, added Cano, are actively looking to add to that, have Paxton, Walker, Ackely, Miller, Seager, Zunino all finally at the MLB level.

The M's are finally geared up for what could be a great season, and people are whining they didnt sign Billy Butler (with his .270 avg and 9 HRs last year)

Shocker

 

[dumbrabbit]

Cano should be the only exception to the M's policy of overspending. He's worth every penny of it. And it paid off last year, and they have him for 9 more years. It's a bold move that will slowly change M's fans stance on it.

He doesn't spend a whole lot often, but when he does, he knows what he's buying.

You realize that Nelson Cruz was under PED scrutiny right? M's ownership didn't want a guy like him, so they stayed true to their player PED policy.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Cano should be the only exception to the M's policy of overspending. He's worth every penny of it. And it paid off last year, and they have him for 9 more years. It's a bold move that will slowly change M's fans stance on it.

He doesn't spend a whole lot often, but when he does, he knows what he's buying.

You realize that Nelson Cruz was under PED scrutiny right? M's ownership didn't want a guy like him, so they stayed true to their player PED policy.

Regardless until Lincoln is gone this team will never be more then "but we almost got there" except by pure dumb luck.

 

[Uncle Si]

Cano should be the only exception to the M's policy of overspending. He's worth every penny of it. And it paid off last year, and they have him for 9 more years. It's a bold move that will slowly change M's fans stance on it.

He doesn't spend a whole lot often, but when he does, he knows what he's buying.

You realize that Nelson Cruz was under PED scrutiny right? M's ownership didn't want a guy like him, so they stayed true to their player PED policy.

Regardless until Lincoln is gone this team will never be more then "but we almost got there" except by pure dumb luck.

really?

Im not a fan of Lincoln, but for the love of all...

1 game. we missed the playoffs by one game

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Cano should be the only exception to the M's policy of overspending. He's worth every penny of it. And it paid off last year, and they have him for 9 more years. It's a bold move that will slowly change M's fans stance on it.

He doesn't spend a whole lot often, but when he does, he knows what he's buying.

You realize that Nelson Cruz was under PED scrutiny right? M's ownership didn't want a guy like him, so they stayed true to their player PED policy.

Regardless until Lincoln is gone this team will never be more then "but we almost got there" except by pure dumb luck.

really?

Im not a fan of Lincoln, but for the love of all...

1 game. we missed the playoffs by one game

Not a fan at all I have met and talked with him and he really is at the root of all the problems the Mariners have at the organizational level. They flat out need 1-2 legitimate bats to be relevant and not depend on their pitching staff to have career years to still lose the division by 10 games. Just like last year, and year before, and before that....

I seriously don't care how they do it whether it be trade or FA or Oujia Board they need to get somebody that can hit.

 

[Uncle Si]

Cano should be the only exception to the M's policy of overspending. He's worth every penny of it. And it paid off last year, and they have him for 9 more years. It's a bold move that will slowly change M's fans stance on it.

He doesn't spend a whole lot often, but when he does, he knows what he's buying.

You realize that Nelson Cruz was under PED scrutiny right? M's ownership didn't want a guy like him, so they stayed true to their player PED policy.

Regardless until Lincoln is gone this team will never be more then "but we almost got there" except by pure dumb luck.

really?

Im not a fan of Lincoln, but for the love of all...

1 game. we missed the playoffs by one game

Not a fan at all I have met and talked with him and he really is at the root of all the problems the Mariners have at the organizational level. They flat out need 1-2 legitimate bats to be relevant and not depend on their pitching staff to have career years to still lose the division by 10 games. Just like last year, and year before, and before that....

I seriously don't care how they do it whether it be trade or FA or Oujia Board they need to get somebody that can hit.

agreed absolutely on what they need. (id say another starting pitcher as well). People underscore the Hart and Morrison signings last year only because they didnt work out. (LoMo was OK). Hart was supposedly a big signing. He just went limp.

Im still holding out that the actions and reactions this team have demonstrated the last 4 years were building to this (albeit a year late).

the next 2-3 weeks will be telling

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

I refuse to believe they won't try everything but I've been through this song and dance since 2001. But with the changed dynamics they have a chance to build something special because they really are so close. And you're right the next 2-3 weeks will say it all.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

He doesn't spend a whole lot often, but when he does, he knows what he's buying..

How can you say this with a straight face?

Milton Bradley, Chone Figgins, Corey Hart, trading Cliff Lee for Justin freakin' Smoak.

Which I don't even care that much about when it comes to Jack, because his expertise was suppose to be rebuilding our farm system........which he's failed at. Other than Seager what position player has lived up to his potential?

When the M's went to Japan two years ago to start the year and Yamauchi couldn't even be bothered with seeing his OWN team, that told me everything I needed to know. Until this teams gets an owner who's passionate about winning, then the M's will continue to struggle be competitive (along with Lincoln and Armstrong leaving).

 

[Uncle Si]

He doesn't spend a whole lot often, but when he does, he knows what he's buying..

How can you say this with a straight face?

Milton Bradley, Chone Figgins, Corey Hart, trading Cliff Lee for Justin freakin' Smoak.

Which I don't even care that much about when it comes to Jack, because his expertise was suppose to be rebuilding our farm system........which he's failed at. Other than Seager what position player has lived up to his potential?

When the M's went to Japan two years ago to start the year and Yamauchi couldn't even be bothered with seeing his OWN team, that told me everything I needed to know. Until this teams gets an owner who's passionate about winning, then the M's will continue to struggle be competitive (along with Lincoln and Armstrong leaving).

You can look through every organizations dealings and find a pillow full of bad moves to cry into. Remember, he also put together the 118 win season, Ichiro!, brought in Beltre and Sexson, kept Felix, somehow managed to get Lee and now has Cano. He also helped build Safeco and keep the Mariners here. Whine on about "passion". I dont see a lack of it. not the best at putting things together. but he's signed off on alot more than casual M's fans give him credit for.
(and Hart was a good move at the time... he ended up sucking. I bet you wanted Josh Hamilton.)

To your other question, Miller and Zunino were both legitimate field players last year at their positions and are 1-2 years in. Ackely is an above replacement level player.

I mean I'm just as bored of the dismal seasons as anyone. I've been going to games since Jose and Julio Cruz manned the infield. If we fail to make any concerted improvements in the next few weeks than sure, i'll be upset. But some acceptance of what this team has built on over the last couple years needs to be take into account, instead of the return to the simplicity of "Lincoln/Shultz" moaning

(essentially I'm just arguing for hope)

 

[dumbrabbit]

Did I say he's a perfect GM? No. But he's learned from previous mistakes like Bradley, Figgins. Also some of it is luck, they were great signings on paper that just didn't pan out. If Cano didn't pan out last year Z would have been fired. Why didn't they fire Z after Figgins, Bradley, etc?

 

[hawkfan68]

It's not about how much money is spent, the problem is who it's being spent on. A lot of teams spend less than M's yet get more out of the players they acquire than the Ms do. That's the problem. Ownership is not making player acquisition decisions. That lies right with Jack Z and his precedessors. They need to scout better, get more players who have an impact (Cano). That's where the problem lies. Removing Lincoln doesn't solve the real issue. They are willing to spend money but spending it on the Hart, Morrison, Ryan, Gillespie, Denorfia, Smoak, and Montero's of the world etc is not going to get it done. If the A's, Royals, Giants, Nationals, Orioles, and Pirates can do it with less money spent...why not the Mariners?

In short, what I am saying is the Mariners spend money for 1 top guy and 10 average fringe guys when all they have to do is spend on two top guys, which may be cheaper in the long run and probably get a greater benefit. Instead of getting a top guy and surrounding him with average to below average supporting cast. Then trying to spend again to cover up the misses they made. See the pattern. The M's have had a hitting each season for the past several seasons. That issue hasn't changed much and is still a priority this offseason. Most likely, it will be the same issue next offeseason too....

 

[HawkFan72]

It's not about how much money is spent, the problem is who it's being spent on. A lot of teams spend less than M's yet get more out of the players they acquire than the Ms do. That's the problem. Ownership is not making player acquisition decisions. That lies right with Jack Z and his precedessors. They need to scout better, get more players who have an impact (Cano). That's where the problem lies. Removing Lincoln doesn't solve the real issue.

But Lincoln has to APPROVE all acquisitions. The coach and GM can want to sign a guy, and Lincoln can say "no".

And that is exactly what has happened throughout the years. The coach and GM have to settle on different players because Lincoln didn't want to spend the coin and/or resources on the guys that the coach and GM really wanted.

Which is why the Mariners FO is a mess. Lincoln meddles too much. The stories you hear are true.

 

[Uncle Si]

It's not about how much money is spent, the problem is who it's being spent on. A lot of teams spend less than M's yet get more out of the players they acquire than the Ms do. That's the problem. Ownership is not making player acquisition decisions. That lies right with Jack Z and his precedessors. They need to scout better, get more players who have an impact (Cano). That's where the problem lies. Removing Lincoln doesn't solve the real issue.

But Lincoln has to APPROVE all acquisitions. The coach and GM can want to sign a guy, and Lincoln can say "no".

And that is exactly what has happened throughout the years. The coach and GM have to settle on different players because Lincoln didn't want to spend the coin and/or resources on the guys that the coach and GM really wanted.

Which is why the Mariners FO is a mess. Lincoln meddles too much. The stories you hear are true.

Name that time when Lincoln said "No."... You will find that over the course of Jack Z's tenure he has been given near full control to get what he wants. On Hamilton, he chose a better team. For others (like Prince, and apparently V-Mart), they have a reasonable range.

Every organization works that way, by the way.


Such is the hyperbole when discussing the Ms. What team hits on all their free agents? seriously. these guys arent perfect, but for the last 5 years have been in planning mode. They are now exactly where they want the club to be. Lets see if they make the final push

 

[hawkfan68]

It's not about how much money is spent, the problem is who it's being spent on. A lot of teams spend less than M's yet get more out of the players they acquire than the Ms do. That's the problem. Ownership is not making player acquisition decisions. That lies right with Jack Z and his precedessors. They need to scout better, get more players who have an impact (Cano). That's where the problem lies. Removing Lincoln doesn't solve the real issue.

But Lincoln has to APPROVE all acquisitions. The coach and GM can want to sign a guy, and Lincoln can say "no".

And that is exactly what has happened throughout the years. The coach and GM have to settle on different players because Lincoln didn't want to spend the coin and/or resources on the guys that the coach and GM really wanted.

Which is why the Mariners FO is a mess. Lincoln meddles too much. The stories you hear are true.

Name that time when Lincoln said "No."... You will find that over the course of Jack Z's tenure he has been given near full control to get what he wants. On Hamilton, he chose a better team. For others (like Prince, and apparently V-Mart), they have a reasonable range.

Every organization works that way, by the way.


Such is the hyperbole when discussing the Ms. What team hits on all their free agents? seriously. these guys arent perfect, but for the last 5 years have been in planning mode. They are now exactly where they want the club to be. Lets see if they make the final push

I agree with you that no team hits on all their free agents. However the amount of misses the Mariners have had with free agents is appalling.

 

[Uncle Si]

i wouldnt say appalling. I mean in general we havent really overpaid for a bust. Chone Figgins is really the only one thats close, and that deal SHOULD have worked.

Weve definately brought in some players who just havent worked out. But it hasnt been devastating to the payroll. think of the contracts Josh Hamilton, Pujols, Fielder are all sitting on at the moment, for the very little production they bring. The M's would be crippled to have that much invested in a player and have him suck. This is where the notion that they cant land top tier FAs comes from. They go in for them, but only up to a certain price. They viewed Hamilton and Fielder with some reservation. They did not with Cano (or Felix)

Now, in trade, the Adam Jones and Michael Pineda trade will always bother me. I didnt think Montero was ever as highly rated as the Yankees made him out to be, and Pineda was already proving it in the majors. I understand the Lee for Smoak deal (as Lee was due a huge payday, and Smoak was supposed to be the real deal. I suppose Montero was too.) Jones couldve changed this franchise's last 5 years

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Name that time when Lincoln said "No."... You will find that over the course of Jack Z's tenure he has been given near full control to get what he wants. On Hamilton, he chose a better team. For others (like Prince, and apparently V-Mart), they have a reasonable range.

Every organization works that way, by the way.

Jack has been given full autonomy to rebuild the farm system, but you're wrong about free agents. He himself has said it's a group effort with free agents and trades.

This is one of the reasons Pat Gillick left, he wanted more power and control over spending, and was tired of having to answer to Lincoln and Armstrong, the needless middle men between team operations and ownership.

Like I said, this is a dysfunctionally structured organization, and until those bozos leave and we get an owner who cares about winning more than the bottom line, we will continue to be average.

 

[Uncle Si]

Name that time when Lincoln said "No."... You will find that over the course of Jack Z's tenure he has been given near full control to get what he wants. On Hamilton, he chose a better team. For others (like Prince, and apparently V-Mart), they have a reasonable range.

Every organization works that way, by the way.

Jack has been given full autonomy to rebuild the farm system, but you're wrong about free agents. He himself has said it's a group effort with free agents and trades.

This is one of the reasons Pat Gillick left, he wanted more power and control over spending, and was tired of having to answer to Lincoln and Armstrong, the needless middle men between team operations and ownership.

Like I said, this is a dysfunctionally structured organization, and until those bozos leave and we get an owner who cares about winning more than the bottom line, we will continue to be average.

Jack has a lot more control than just the head of a "group effort".. this isnt a secret.

this "dysfunctionally structured organization" is run like just about every other MLB team, with a GM, a manager and an ownership group.

Im not defending Lincoln here, as he's made plenty of mistakes. but the notion that he's at fault for a decade of struggles despite helping make some rather good moves after helping putting together a tremendous decade of baseball in Seattle (including their first playoff appearance and a 118 win season) is borderline naive (to be nice)

I get it, you want an owner like Paul Allen. I do too. But what we do have gets a lot more undeserved criticism than whats real. not caring about winning more than the bottom line after resigning Felix and signing Cano is the perfect statement on how you see things being done. just... well whatever.

 

[HawkFan72]

But Lincoln has to APPROVE all acquisitions. The coach and GM can want to sign a guy, and Lincoln can say "no".

And that is exactly what has happened throughout the years. The coach and GM have to settle on different players because Lincoln didn't want to spend the coin and/or resources on the guys that the coach and GM really wanted.

Which is why the Mariners FO is a mess. Lincoln meddles too much. The stories you hear are true.

Name that time when Lincoln said "No."... You will find that over the course of Jack Z's tenure he has been given near full control to get what he wants. On Hamilton, he chose a better team. For others (like Prince, and apparently V-Mart), they have a reasonable range.

Every organization works that way, by the way.


Such is the hyperbole when discussing the Ms. What team hits on all their free agents? seriously. these guys arent perfect, but for the last 5 years have been in planning mode. They are now exactly where they want the club to be. Lets see if they make the final push

I'm not even just talking about Z's tenure.

Back during the 2001, 116 win season, Lou Pinella went to Lincoln before the trade deadline and said "This team is special. We need one more hitter in this lineup. If you let us acquire one more hitter at the trade deadline, I'll pretty much guarantee you a World Series".

Lincoln said no, he wanted to stand pat and not spend any more, and we all know what happened in the playoffs.

There's your one time, since you asked for one. Lincoln doesn't really care about Winning a World Series. It's his 2nd priority (if even that high).

 

[Uncle Si]

But Lincoln has to APPROVE all acquisitions. The coach and GM can want to sign a guy, and Lincoln can say "no".

And that is exactly what has happened throughout the years. The coach and GM have to settle on different players because Lincoln didn't want to spend the coin and/or resources on the guys that the coach and GM really wanted.

Which is why the Mariners FO is a mess. Lincoln meddles too much. The stories you hear are true.

Name that time when Lincoln said "No."... You will find that over the course of Jack Z's tenure he has been given near full control to get what he wants. On Hamilton, he chose a better team. For others (like Prince, and apparently V-Mart), they have a reasonable range.

Every organization works that way, by the way.


Such is the hyperbole when discussing the Ms. What team hits on all their free agents? seriously. these guys arent perfect, but for the last 5 years have been in planning mode. They are now exactly where they want the club to be. Lets see if they make the final push

I'm not even just talking about Z's tenure.

Back during the 2001, 116 win season, Lou Pinella went to Lincoln before the trade deadline and said "This team is special. We need one more hitter in this lineup. If you let us acquire one more hitter at the trade deadline, I'll pretty much guarantee you a World Series".

Lincoln said no, he wanted to stand pat and not spend any more, and we all know what happened in the playoffs.

There's your one time, since you asked for one. Lincoln doesn't really care about Winning a World Series. It's his 2nd priority.

he didnt care about winning a world series, but helped put together a 116 win team? He was part of the reason that team was littered with All-Stars. He had just helped the city build a brand new ball park to win a 116 games in. (and host the all-star game littered with Mariners that same year)

Lou mismanaged that team in the playoffs (game 6 in NY the coup de grace, and seriously Lou, you won 116 games, have 8 all stars but need more?). but that one hitter (who was to be off the bench, not a starter by the way) did not keep the team that won 116 games from reaching the world series.

FFS... think about what youre saying. or even look back at the 1990s.

im actually defending Lincoln, who I think gets far more wrong than right, such is the ridiculousness of some of these statements.