Looking Back In Hindsight...

Hawker8989

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Would the Seahawks have been better off losing the NFCCG five years ago? Boswell catches that onside kick. Packers go to the SB.The organization could've chalked it up to a bad day. It happens. There wouldn't have been one singular play that people couldn't get over. Instead, they won the game in dramatic fashion. Off to the SB. Packers left heartbroken. But in a cruel twist of fate, our Hawks would suffer what the Packers felt x 10 two weeks later.

I bring this up because this team has never been a serious SB contender since that faithful day in Glendale, Arizona. Sure, we made the postseason. But did anyone seriously think we were one of the best teams? Even this year felt like smoke and mirrors. Things have never been the same since. And maybe it's on Sherman and company for not getting over it.

Is this a legit thought? Or, do you always prefer to see your team get to a SB. Results be damn.
 

sutz

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I think we need to let go of SB49. :229031_shrug:
 

TreeRon

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CXLIX will fans still be talking about this?
 

Torc

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I wouldn't trade the memory of Erin's failure. It just about balances out my disappointment with the result of the super bowl. :)
 

BubbaGump

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I agree with Sutz, need to let it go. I’m grateful for all the memories the Hawks have given me.
 

BASF

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It is weird that people can not let it go. Yes, Pete wanted the pass play but it was Bevell that chose to run that particular play which was the stupidest possible play call he could have made. Now, if they had designed a different route out of that formation, like one step inside then an out along the goal line, that play would have scored without being touched. However, Bevell was not smart enough to do such a thing and we all know the result. I wanted him fired just as much as anyone as soon as the dust settled, because it was a poor decision, but losing some of the players who were not going to allow Russ to become the true leader of this team is a positive result as far as I am concerned.
 

olyfan63

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We had to pay Russ, and could no longer afford an extra $10-25Million per year of talent.
We had Richard Sherman on a rookie contract. Bobby Wagner too.
Jeremy Lane on a cheap rookie contract.
Brandon Browner cheap also.
Kam was on his 2nd contract, but still affordable for the talent and impact.
We had Earl Thomas on a cheap rookie contract through 2013.
Even a guy like Walter Thurman, who was good when healthy, and cheap.
So the entire Legion of Boom, basically on the cheap.
We had a cheap, mostly-shit O-Line that could run-block but not so much on pass-blocking. Remember Bowie and Bailey? We had Okung healthy and effective a couple of those years. We had Max Unger.
Russell was young enough and fast enough to escape from opponent pass rushes.
We had Marshawn in his prime. We had Russell and the Read-Option as a legitimate threat that created more opportunity for Marshawn. We had the speedy Bruce Irvin on a rookie contract. KJ was cheap too, at that time. It just goes on and on, plenty I've missed I'm sure.

I don't have the patience to tally it up here, but we may have been as much as +$40M or more to the good compared to most other teams, with all our cheap young talent. Maybe someone has a payroll-to-DVOA chart for the offense and defense for the 2012, 2013, 2014 seasons.

With that margin, could afford free agents like Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, Chris Clemons, proven vets on prove-it deals.
We then proceeded to piss away a good chunk of that margin with the Percy Harvin fiasco, the Jimmy Graham mostly-waste, and then kept around an underperforming Tom Cable. We had guys like Sherm and Kam get injured and had a lot of our salary cap tied up in broken-down players.

This team just hasn't been physically talented enough in key areas for a long time, because we don't have so many players widely outperforming their contracts like in the 2012-2014 heyday.

As a wide receiver, would you rather go up against Richard Sherman and Brandon Browner, and worry about getting de-cleated by Kam Chancellor, and not be able to get deep on Earl Thomas? It sounds a bit easier and less dangerous if you are instead matching up with Shaq Griffin, Tre Flowers, Bradley McDougald, and Tedric Thompson. (Pre-Diggs)

Recall that Pete is in many ways, a college coach at heart. We seem poised to have a wave of young talent for cheap and cap to bring in talented free agents. The next couple years is shaping up to be another golden era of Seahawks success, with another Owl, if Pete and John play it right. We hit on DK. We've got Russell with a few more prime years. DK. Chances are good we'll sign Clowney for a couple more years. You absolutely KNOW that Pete and John won't make any more trades as boneheaded as Percy Harvin, or draft picks as stupid as Malik McDowell. They'll make mistakes, sure, but smaller ones, from bad luck, not from bad player evaluations. (Harvin and McDowell were preventable mistakes IMO, and Pete/John have learned the key lessons) We have some young O-Line talent that is going to keep improving. (Phil Haynes, Anthony Simmons, others) We have some young D-Line talent that is due to truly develop, and Pete will get more in FA. Yes, there are holes.

We can have discussions about the post-2014 years, Pete "losing the team", locker room division, etc., but the reality is the 2012-2014 Seahawks teams had a ton of guys outplaying their contract$ by wide margins. We haven't had that outplaying-the-contract situation so much since 2014. We are poised to have that again next year and the couple years after, if Pete and John play their cards right.

If Russell doesn't throw the pick on the goal line in SB49, and we win, I think the years after that are still roughly about the same. The same forces that knocked the team down a peg were still in play. At best, maybe we make it to the NFCCG one more time, from attracting free agents who bet on the Seahawks being their best shot to get a ring.

How many more plays did we need, this year, to get to the Owl? Well, we needed 6 more inches on one play, and to actually show up for AZ at home. We needed a Malik Turner catch instead of a drop. We needed Russell or a RB or TE to see the unblocked GB blitzer on 3rd down, and slow him down. We were 3 or 4 higher-quality players and a few depth players short of having a 2013-like year, and a trip to the Owl. We have a better overall coaching staff now than in 2014, but significantly less overall talent. Solari > Bevell, Schotty > Bevell. Kris Richard > I-don't-know-who-it-even-is. (But Norton < Quinn)

It wasn't the SB49 loss psychodrama, it was the fundamental structure of the team, salary to talent/value that has kept us down a notch or two from the glory years, more pretenders than contenders. Rams did their version of that this year, and it wasn't pretty for them. Still, a couple key injuries, and we might well be in this year's NFCCG. Chris Carson, Will Dissly, Penny, untimely Brown injury, etc.
 

Mad Dog

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Winning NFCCG's is far more important to me than SB victories. My 3 favourite sports experiences in life were the 3 NFCCG we won at CLink. Why? I'm a STH and this is what you pay those yearly seat fees for. That chance to attend and win the conference championship game in your house with all the 12's around you. That feeling is surreal and far better than attending a SB with it's corporate neutrality.

So I imagine if you are a fan that only watches the Hawks from your couch, you might feel that way. But to me I wouldn't trade that wild Sunday at Clink for a SB XLIX victory. I was at XLIX and the vibe even when we were looking like we might win was never that exciting. Being surrounded by a bunch of suits and fans of Packers and Steelers means there is no one to celebrate or commiserate with.
 

bmorepunk

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sutz":2rc6ydjr said:
I think we need to let go of SB49. :229031_shrug:

I wasn't even that mad at the time. If they hadn't won the year before? Would have been terrible. But it really wasn't the end of the world in football terms. It's wild to me that it still tugs at the very fabric of some people's being and they seem to think about it constantly.

I guess what OP is doing is some kind of fan defense mechanism. They're trying to tie the end of that SB and the team's performance since then with magical causality. It's an extension of losing on that play in the first place, but even more complicated. People have posted here endlessly about how Carroll "lost the team" or it "broke the team" or whatever that they lost that way. It's possible, but it's also possible that the team was just going to change anyway, and it's actually really, really hard to make it to a Super Bowl and win it and people were taking that for granted. They're like conspiracy theories; they're simplified explanations to complex things.
 

SeAhAwKeR4life

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sutz":13otvj8x said:
I think we need to let go of SB49. :229031_shrug:


It never bothered me that bad. Hell I am SO over that. So we lost to the Pats, who hasn't? Brady, much as I hate him is a GREAT, that's not arguable.

It's XL still chaps my hyde. That team EARNED it and had it stolen. Matt Hasselbeck and that team was ROBBED for Bettis and NFL profits. They steered that game, IDGAF if you think I'm wrong, I'll go to my grave believing that they did. :34853_doh:
 
OP
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Hawker8989

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olyfan63":mdxt5xnr said:
We had to pay Russ, and could no longer afford an extra $10-25Million per year of talent.
We had Richard Sherman on a rookie contract. Bobby Wagner too.
Jeremy Lane on a cheap rookie contract.
Brandon Browner cheap also.
Kam was on his 2nd contract, but still affordable for the talent and impact.
We had Earl Thomas on a cheap rookie contract through 2013.
Even a guy like Walter Thurman, who was good when healthy, and cheap.
So the entire Legion of Boom, basically on the cheap.
We had a cheap, $h!t O-Line that could run-block but not so much on pass-blocking. Remember Bowie and Bailey? We had Okung healthy and effective a couple of those years. We had Max Unger.
Russell was young enough and fast enough to escape from opponent pass rushes.
We had Marshawn in his prime. We had Russell and the Read-Option as a legitimate threat that created more opportunity for Marshawn. We had the speedy Bruce Irvin on a rookie contract. KJ was cheap too, at that time. It just goes on and on, plenty I've missed I'm sure.

I don't have the patience to tally it up here, but we may have been as much as +$40M or more to the good compared to most other teams, with all our cheap young talent. Maybe someone has a payroll-to-DVOA chart for the offense and defense for the 2012, 2013, 2014 seasons.

With that margin, could afford free agents like Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, Chris Clemons, proven vets on prove-it deals.
We then proceeded to piss away a good chunk of that margin with the Percy Harvin fiasco, the Jimmy Graham mostly-waste, and then kept around an underperforming Tom Cable. We had guys like Sherm and Kam get injured and had a lot of our salary cap tied up in broken-down players.

This team just hasn't been physically talented enough in key areas for a long time, because we don't have so many players widely outperforming their contracts like in the 2012-2014 heyday.

As a wide receiver, would you rather go up against Richard Sherman and Brandon Browner, and worry about getting de-cleated by Kam Chancellor, and not be able to get deep on Earl Thomas? It sounds a bit easier and less dangerous if you are instead matching up with Shaq Griffin, Tre Flowers, Bradley McDougald, and Tedric Thompson. (Pre-Diggs)

Recall that Pete is in many ways, a college coach at heart. We seem poised to have a wave of young talent for cheap and cap to bring in talented free agents. The next couple years is shaping up to be another golden era of Seahawks success, with another Owl, if Pete and John play it right. We hit on DK. We've got Russell with a few more prime years. DK. Chances are good we'll sign Clowney for a couple more years. You absolutely KNOW that Pete and John won't make any more trades as boneheaded as Percy Harvin, or draft picks as stupid as Malik McDowell. They'll make mistakes, sure, but smaller ones, from bad luck, not from bad player evaluations. (Harvin and McDowell were preventable mistakes IMO, and Pete/John have learned the key lessons) We have some young O-Line talent that is going to keep improving. (Phil Haynes, Anthony Simmons, others) We have some young D-Line talent that is due to truly develop, and Pete will get more in FA. Yes, there are holes.

We can have discussions about the post-2014 years, Pete "losing the team", locker room division, etc., but the reality is the 2012-2014 Seahawks teams had a ton of guys outplaying their contract$ by wide margins. We haven't had that outplaying-the-contract situation so much since 2014. We are poised to have that again next year and the couple years after, if Pete and John play their cards right.

If Russell doesn't throw the pick on the goal line in SB49, and we win, I think the years after that are still roughly about the same. The same forces that knocked the team down a peg were still in play. At best, maybe we make it to the NFCCG one more time, from attracting free agents who bet on the Seahawks being their best shot to get a ring.

How many more plays did we need, this year, to get to the Owl? Well, we needed 6 more inches on one play, and to actually show up for AZ at home. We needed a Malik Turner catch instead of a drop. We needed Russell or a RB or TE to see the unblocked GB blitzer on 3rd down, and slow him down. We were 3 or 4 higher-quality players and a few depth players short of having a 2013-like year, and a trip to the Owl. We have a better overall coaching staff now than in 2014, but significantly less overall talent. Solari > Bevell, Schotty > Bevell. Kris Richard > I-don't-know-who-it-even-is. (But Norton < Quinn)

It wasn't the SB49 loss psychodrama, it was the fundamental structure of the team, salary to talent/value that has kept us down a notch or two from the glory years, more pretenders than contenders. Rams did their version of that this year, and it wasn't pretty for them. Still, a couple key injuries, and we might well be in this year's NFCCG. Chris Carson, Will Dissly, Penny, untimely Brown injury, etc.

In otherwords, you think we still see these results even with a repeat? That's the answer I was looking for. I never thought it out like this.
 

12AngryHawks

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Well, if they weren't serious contenders because players like Sherman, Thomas, and Bennett couldn't get over XLIX, then that's on them, not on the team. If so, Pete was right for letting them leave.

I think Quinn leaving had a bigger impact than some of us think, not only was he a great DC, I think he did a better job of controlling his players than Richard or Norton.
 

SantaClaraHawk

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12AngryHawks":3rfdrx8o said:
Well, if they weren't serious contenders because players like Sherman, Thomas, and Bennett couldn't get over XLIX, then that's on them, not on the team. If so, Pete was right for letting them leave.

I think Quinn leaving had a bigger impact than some of us think, not only was he a great DC, I think he did a better job of controlling his players than Richard or Norton.

Quinn had a huge impact on D performance. The behavioral breakdown stuff, the underperformance all happened after he headed to ATL.
 

rcaido

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greatest comeback game of all time. i still watch it, glad to have that in my memory.

this was karma for the fail marry crap
 

FalconsFanNW

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SantaClaraHawk":2v5nfytk said:
12AngryHawks":2v5nfytk said:
Well, if they weren't serious contenders because players like Sherman, Thomas, and Bennett couldn't get over XLIX, then that's on them, not on the team. If so, Pete was right for letting them leave.

I think Quinn leaving had a bigger impact than some of us think, not only was he a great DC, I think he did a better job of controlling his players than Richard or Norton.

Quinn had a huge impact on D performance. The behavioral breakdown stuff, the underperformance all happened after he headed to ATL.

Ha! It's just too bad his huge impact hasn't rubbed off in Atlanta.

14th
27th
8th
25th
23rd

His only top 10 defense was the year after they blew LI.

The Falcons turnaround from 1-7 to finish 7-9 this season was after he removed himself from calling the defense which was a huge mistake to begin with. Still 1-7 was inexcusable.

After 5 years I'm still not sold on Quinn... although LI falls on Shanahan's shoulders IMO Quinn should have stepped up as the HC.
 
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