Investing in O-Line

[McGruff]

Really don't understand our philosophy in regards to spending money on our offense. We pay guys like Graham, Baldwin and Kearse then can't even get them the ball because our line is so bad. It would seem the most logical way to build the team would be to provide Russ with a serviceable line that would allow us to run the ball and then in-turn open up the passing game. Really hope the spending strategy for our offense changes.

I hink the strategy is to pay players who are good at hat they do, regardless of position. WE have invested fairly significant capital into the line, it just hasn't developed into the kind of quality you give 2nd contracts to.

If you dont have an example to prove the rule vis a vis O line it raises the question to me at least, what does a 2nd contract o lineman drafted in seattle play like to warrant it? Isnt Okung the only one during the JSPC tenure to get one or did Unger? Also who drafted Okung?

Unger got a 2nd contract. OKUNG was drafted by Pete and john. Okung didn't get a 2nd contract due to injuries.

Here's the Seahawks rule. ELITE players get elite contracts. Every one else gets low contracts. They will not pay mid level contracts to mid level players, because they believe they can get mid level play from rookie contract players.

And 90% of the time it has worked in spades. Literally the ONLY area it hasn't has been the oline.

I am the last person to criticize coaches, but I think it's time we take a on hard look at Tom Cable. THE league lover him, but I'm starting to wonder why?

 

[sdog1981]

Really don't understand our philosophy in regards to spending money on our offense. We pay guys like Graham, Baldwin and Kearse then can't even get them the ball because our line is so bad. It would seem the most logical way to build the team would be to provide Russ with a serviceable line that would allow us to run the ball and then in-turn open up the passing game. Really hope the spending strategy for our offense changes.

I hink the strategy is to pay players who are good at hat they do, regardless of position. WE have invested fairly significant capital into the line, it just hasn't developed into the kind of quality you give 2nd contracts to.

If you dont have an example to prove the rule vis a vis O line it raises the question to me at least, what does a 2nd contract o lineman drafted in seattle play like to warrant it? Isnt Okung the only one during the JSPC tenure to get one or did Unger? Also who drafted Okung?

Unger got a 2nd contract. OKUNG was drafted by Pete and john. Okung didn't get a 2nd contract due to injuries.

Here's the Seahawks rule. ELITE players get elite contracts. Every one else gets low contracts. They will not pay mid level contracts to mid level players, because they believe they can get mid level play from rookie contract players.

And 90% of the time it has worked in spades. Literally the ONLY area it hasn't has been the oline.

I am the last person to criticize coaches, but I think it's time we take a on hard look at Tom Cable. THE league lover him, but I'm starting to wonder why?

Check out my draft pick chart I posted.

 

[mrt144]

So all those draft picks and not even 1 worth retaining on any basis for more than the first contract.

Either they dont care about OL too much as it factors on salary and are taking a calculated risk it can be worked around almost like a dump stat in an RPG or they are incapable of giving long term development more than cursory lip service because they are too cheap to actually keep an asset.

As a pure hypothetical, how elite would an OL be for the hawks to get a 2nd contract and do you think theyd take it over an udfa?

 

[McGruff]

So all those draft picks and not even 1 worth retaining on any basis for more than the first contract.

Either they dont care about OL too much as it factors on salary and are taking a calculated risk it can be worked around almost like a dump stat in an RPG or they are incapable of giving long term development more than cursory lip service because they are too cheap to actually keep an asset.

As a pure hypothetical, how elite would an OL be for the hawks to get a 2nd contract and do you think theyd take it over an udfa?

Unger was considered top 3 at his position at the I'm he resigned.

In general, Seahawks reward top 5 to top 10 at heir position with 2nd contracts. THERE are exceptions (Kearse) but they are rare.

The Seahawks simply don't give out mid level contracts.

 

[McGruff]

So all those draft picks and not even 1 worth retaining on any basis for more than the first contract.

Either they dont care about OL too much as it factors on salary and are taking a calculated risk it can be worked around almost like a dump stat in an RPG or they are incapable of giving long term development more than cursory lip service because they are too cheap to actually keep an asset.

As a pure hypothetical, how elite would an OL be for the hawks to get a 2nd contract and do you think theyd take it over an udfa?

Skip the hypothetical. Would you take James Carpenter and JR Sweezy and Brock Coyle, or Mark Glowinski and Germaine Ifedi and Bobby Wagner? BECUASE those are the kind of choices a GM has to make. TWO averge players or one elite one?

 

[mrt144]

So all those draft picks and not even 1 worth retaining on any basis for more than the first contract.

Either they dont care about OL too much as it factors on salary and are taking a calculated risk it can be worked around almost like a dump stat in an RPG or they are incapable of giving long term development more than cursory lip service because they are too cheap to actually keep an asset.

As a pure hypothetical, how elite would an OL be for the hawks to get a 2nd contract and do you think theyd take it over an udfa?

Skip the hypothetical. Would you take James Carpenter and JR Sweezy and Brock Coyle, or Mark Glowinski and Germaine Ifedi and Bobby Wagner? BECUASE those are the kind of choices a GM has to make. TWO averge players or one elite one?

Since they've never had anyone considered elite at OL bar Unger who they didn't draft, I think the hypothetical can be explored.

Would they keep Walter Jones on the basis of being elite even if it precluded other parts of the team, especially if this stand in for Walter Jones played like peak Walter Jones from day 1? I don't think they would. But they seem to have taken that mentality to the extreme which is "If we aren't searching for the next Walter Jones and wouldn't even sign the next Walter Jones if we had him, lets go to the ultimate cost savings route which is some draft picks, some UDFAs and bad FAs with no market."

Lets go even further. If the Seahawks drafted an O Lineman that through his effort alone produced at least 10 points per game what would his 2nd contract salary be worth and would the Seahawks pony up?

And for you guys and gals that are gamers, you know this strategy by heart - min/max. It's effective but it's brittle because eventually you'll happen across a baddie who actually, yes, does require a charisma roll.

 

[McGruff]

They absolutely would. Guaranteed. They will pay elite layers elite money regardless of position.

 

[mrt144]

They absolutely would. Guaranteed. They will pay elite layers elite money regardless of position.

Sad we'll never know.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

I'm old enough to remember us investing heavily in O-line last draft. Problem is, when you're investing in all newbies along the line, "development" isn't enough to protect the quarterback while they mature, gel, develop, whatever.

 

[cheese22]

I was hoping that instead of re-signing Kearse, they would put that money towards a FA lineman.

 

[justafan]

So all those draft picks and not even 1 worth retaining on any basis for more than the first contract.

Either they dont care about OL too much as it factors on salary and are taking a calculated risk it can be worked around almost like a dump stat in an RPG or they are incapable of giving long term development more than cursory lip service because they are too cheap to actually keep an asset.

As a pure hypothetical, how elite would an OL be for the hawks to get a 2nd contract and do you think theyd take it over an udfa?

Skip the hypothetical. Would you take James Carpenter and JR Sweezy and Brock Coyle, or Mark Glowinski and Germaine Ifedi and Bobby Wagner? BECUASE those are the kind of choices a GM has to make. TWO averge players or one elite one?

But that wasnt the reality of the choice they made.They chose a player like Harvin and spent the same amount of money that keeping Breno and Carp would have cost.They chose Graham and his contract over Unger and a 1st round pick and .Not the best 3 Olineman but better than we have.
It turned us into a soft offensive team.

We won a the Superbowl with a good Oline.We wont win another with this level of play from the Oline.

As far as Cable look at his career and try to see where he really earned the guru status.Wilson and BeastMode made his lines look better than they have been here.

 

[Skansi82]

I get frustrated with our O line too, but more than any other position I feel like the market drives prices up, which drives ROI down. Shown below are the cap numbers for some of the players we let walk, or didn't lock up with a second contract.

Carpenter: $3.15 mill. Is he better than Glow, who is making $611k and has upside?

Sweezy: $9.5 mill, currently on PUP. Turned into a stud run blocker, but not worth $9.5mill

Breno: $5.6 mill. Would gladly pay him that to replace Gilliam, but he's currently on the PUP

Unger: $4.3 ($7.4/$8 mill next two years) Britt is making $942k, and we have Jimmy.

Okung: $5.2 mill. ($11.7/$11.2 next two years) Healthy so far, a lot to commit for someone with his injury history.

In hindsight it would be great to have Breno and Okung right now, but Carrol/Schneider took a risk and only time will tell if it bites them in the arse.

 

[McGruff]

So all those draft picks and not even 1 worth retaining on any basis for more than the first contract.

Either they dont care about OL too much as it factors on salary and are taking a calculated risk it can be worked around almost like a dump stat in an RPG or they are incapable of giving long term development more than cursory lip service because they are too cheap to actually keep an asset.

As a pure hypothetical, how elite would an OL be for the hawks to get a 2nd contract and do you think theyd take it over an udfa?

Skip the hypothetical. Would you take James Carpenter and JR Sweezy and Brock Coyle, or Mark Glowinski and Germaine Ifedi and Bobby Wagner? BECUASE those are the kind of choices a GM has to make. TWO averge players or one elite one?

But that wasnt the reality of the choice they made.They chose a player like Harvin and spent the same amount of money that keeping Breno and Carp would have cost.They chose Graham and his contract over Unger and a 1st round pick and .Not the best 3 Olineman but better than we have.
It turned us into a soft offensive team.

We won a the Superbowl with a good Oline.We wont win another with this level of play from the Oline.

As far as Cable look at his career and try to see where he really earned the guru status.Wilson and BeastMode made his lines look better than they have been here.

OMG, you don't remember how much we whined about that 2013 line?

 

[mrt144]

So all those draft picks and not even 1 worth retaining on any basis for more than the first contract.

Either they dont care about OL too much as it factors on salary and are taking a calculated risk it can be worked around almost like a dump stat in an RPG or they are incapable of giving long term development more than cursory lip service because they are too cheap to actually keep an asset.

As a pure hypothetical, how elite would an OL be for the hawks to get a 2nd contract and do you think theyd take it over an udfa?

Skip the hypothetical. Would you take James Carpenter and JR Sweezy and Brock Coyle, or Mark Glowinski and Germaine Ifedi and Bobby Wagner? BECUASE those are the kind of choices a GM has to make. TWO averge players or one elite one?

But that wasnt the reality of the choice they made.They chose a player like Harvin and spent the same amount of money that keeping Breno and Carp would have cost.They chose Graham and his contract over Unger and a 1st round pick and .Not the best 3 Olineman but better than we have.
It turned us into a soft offensive team.

We won a the Superbowl with a good Oline.We wont win another with this level of play from the Oline.

As far as Cable look at his career and try to see where he really earned the guru status.Wilson and BeastMode made his lines look better than they have been here.

OMG, you don't remember how much we whined about that 2013 line?

Makes us seem like an unappreciative lot. Now can we fire Bevell already?

 

[Bryce84]

I heard Collinsworth say it on some Sunday Night game earlier this year, teams are built by paying elite players and drafting rookies. There are occasional journeyman vets to fill in the gaps, but due to the contracts getting bigger and bigger, this is the approach a lot of teams are taking. We just haven't had an elite offensive lineman to pay except Unger, who had been highly injury prone in his last few years here.

 

[Fade]

I can accept struggles on the O-Line while they develop, but Bradley Sowell & Garry Gilliam both have no future in the NFL. They are a waste of space. They would be better off playing George Fant, and Rees Odhiambo. Gilliam would be cool as a cheap 3rd Tackle eligible with his TE background, but a starter he is not. Gilliam is the most disappointing player on this team, because it appeared he turned a corner the 2nd half of last year, but it turns out it was a mirage. Webb should get a shot to start at RT, Seattle would feature the biggest right side in the NFL, and they could run behind it, at least start to build an identity. That isn't happening with Gilliam.


LT Fant -- LG Glow -- C Britt -- RG Ifedi -- RT Webb

 

[UK_Hawk]

Another problem with the "investing in O line via the draft" approach is that unless you are talking about the rare top, top college guy, O lineman take time to develop. There are certain positions in the NFL where rookies can be very successful, but it seems that O line is usually not one of them.

I would guess that's because the guys come straight out of college where the opposition are smaller and not as strong. They make the move in to the NFL where the opposition are guys who's whole life is to make themselves a battering ram and it's some step up. That type of thing will take time to develop in most situations.

 

[Largent80]

Really don't understand our philosophy in regards to spending money on our offense.

Do you like our defense?......Because that is 65% of the reason. We paid our core players and I'm glad they did.

Also.....We finally have a franchise QB......Which is about 25%....What you have left is all the rest of the team.

 

[jammerhawk]

The Seahawks have no preconceived cap investment philosophy. There are no position by position budget allowance. Just an every day commitment to look for ways to improve their 53 man roster.

This is absolutely right on!

Everyone was starting to believe the OLine was improving until this last game. There is in reality objective evidence to demonstrate the OL is playing better, then along comes a really good D and the O Line looks like crap again.

JS will find a guy to play OT to replace Sowell and another guy to replace Gilliam who frankly has been a disappointment. Gilliam seems to have regressed from last year. Solid OTs are hard to find and usually take some time to develop when they are raw. Hopefully RW doesn't get hurt more until it happens. Just fitting in to this scheme we have here is not easy. Just bringing in the castoff veterans suggested here at a high cap cost is not a smart way to develop OLine continuity, development to me makes more sense.

The team has a player in Ifedi who could be possibly a RT in training, and there is a reason why Fant was kept around at LT. In the short term until Sowell gets healthy some OLine switching around is likely to happen. We are likely to see some movement with the OLine and perhaps more of Fant and Webb which is frightening, so is the prospect of starting Odhiambo.

Meanwhile thoughts on overpaying to find a LT of a washed up vet or some aged vet no longer wanted for cap reasons with a big contract are likely pipe dreams. It's not easy to find starter quality OTs but it's also hard to develop them, I doubt we see the team trade for any expensive short term stop gap. The attempt to develop talent will continue.

 

[jhern87]

Really don't understand our philosophy in regards to spending money on our offense.

Do you like our defense?......Because that is 65% of the reason. We paid our core players and I'm glad they did.

Also.....We finally have a franchise QB......Which is about 25%....What you have left is all the rest of the team.

No I don't like our offense. It's "hike the ball and hope our franchise, mobile QB can stay alive long enough to find an open WR". I think we'd be much better suited paying quality o-linemen instead of receivers like Graham, Baldwin and Kearse, who aren't getting that many looks anyways because our QB doesn't have enough time to let them get open. Our inability to sustain drives is now wearing down our defense as well, as they're practically out on the field the whole game. Pay Russ, pay your line and draft receivers and RB's.