Hawks-WORST NFL team in the last 18 years-Time Of Possession

[justafan]

It is more than just one side of the ball taking all the blame. Plenty of holes on both sides.

The Indy game is used as the holy grail of the new offense, I think its a great example of what went wrong this year on both sides of the ball. Our O had 6 drives with 5 plays or less, none of them resulted in scores. The D allowed 3 drives over 10 plays. 4 over 4 mins. If you are playing up tempo and snapping it with 10 secs left on the clock you aren't helping the D when you are punting that much. Especially when you are ahead in the game.

 

[John63]

It is more than just one side of the ball taking all the blame. Plenty of holes on both sides.

The Indy game is used as the holy grail of the new offense, I think its a great example of what went wrong this year on both sides of the ball. Our O had 6 drives with 5 plays or less, none of them resulted in scores. The D allowed 3 drives over 10 plays. 4 over 4 mins. If you are playing up tempo and snapping it with 10 secs left on the clock you aren't helping the D when you are punting that much. Especially when you are ahead in the game.

Actually, most of us use the last 2 games as the holy grail, and only the first half of the indy game as after that the offense changed.

 

[justafan]

Of course they did. They spent the time installing a new O only to scrap it after having a good start.

 

[jammerhawk]

Then brought it (that new O) back at the end of the season, correcting to a large degree the TOP differential.

I agree however the TOP differential is more upon the D than the O.

The Hawks reliably givee up 3rd down conversions extending drives seemingly more than any other team in the NFL. Perhaps my last comment is hyperbole but it feels that way.

 

[Jville]

I think one of the more overlooked impacts of a large time of possession differential lies in its effect on player staffing. If the defense is going to be out on the field more than the offense, a higher count of defensive players than offensive players is useful to get thru a season.

Last year didn't feature a clock work ball control offense. The offense had a fondness for striking deep over the top whenever possible rather than working it's way methodically down the field and controlling the clock.

The defense prioritized stopping the run and preventing over the top completions .... keeping everything in front of them. A ranking of priorities designed to make an opponent earn every yard.

A more important statistic is points. The defense ranked 12th in points surrendered. Remarkable given how much time they were on the field. The offense ranked 16th in points scored. And in my opinion, a leading reason they didn't rank better and didn't realize a better win-lose record was because of critical errors at critical moments. That and getting into a bad run of finding ways to lose.

Prediction: The team made use of 15 defensive backs in 2021 and needed everyone of them. I expect to see more of the same need in 2022.

 

[chris98251]

I think one of the more overlooked impacts of a large time of possession differential lies in its effect on player staffing. If the defense is going to be out on the field more than the offense, a higher count of defensive players than offensive players is useful to get thru a season.

Last year didn't feature a clock work ball control offense. The offense had a fondness for striking deep over the top whenever possible rather than working it's way methodically down the field and controlling the clock.

The defense prioritized stopping the run and preventing over the top completions .... keeping everything in front of them. A ranking of priorities designed to make an opponent earn every yard.

A more important statistic is points. The defense ranked 12th in points surrendered. Remarkable given how much time they were on the field. The offense ranked 16th in points scored. And in my opinion, a leading reason they didn't rank better and didn't realize a better win-lose record was because of critical errors at critical moments. That and getting into a bad run of finding ways to lose.

Prediction: The team made use of 15 defensive backs in 2021 and needed everyone of them. I expect to see more of the same need in 2022.

Well playing the equivalent of almost two seasons in one in plays and time on the field in a large part is also going to get you twice as many injuries just do to the amount of plays, secondly you get hurt more with bad technique which comes from playing tired.

 

[Jville]

I think one of the more overlooked impacts of a large time of possession differential lies in its effect on player staffing. If the defense is going to be out on the field more than the offense, a higher count of defensive players than offensive players is useful to get thru a season.

Last year didn't feature a clock work ball control offense. The offense had a fondness for striking deep over the top whenever possible rather than working it's way methodically down the field and controlling the clock.

The defense prioritized stopping the run and preventing over the top completions .... keeping everything in front of them. A ranking of priorities designed to make an opponent earn every yard.

A more important statistic is points. The defense ranked 12th in least points surrendered. Remarkable given how much time they were on the field. The offense ranked 16th in points scored. And in my opinion, a leading reason they didn't rank better and didn't realize a better win-lose record was because of critical errors at critical moments. That and getting into a bad run of finding ways to lose.

Prediction: The team made use of 15 defensive backs in 2021 and needed everyone of them. I expect to see more of the same need in 2022.

Well playing the equivalent of almost two seasons in one in plays and time on the field in a large part is also going to get you twice as many injuries just do to the amount of plays, secondly you get hurt more with bad technique which comes from playing tired.

Indeed, time on the field does impact injury rates for the defense. Defenders seeing a heavy exposure out on the field also invites fourth quarter performance fade. All the more reason to commit to an appropriate number of defenders to address those time of possession realities and rotational needs.

Correction: The defense ranked 12th in points surrendered ----- was incorrectly stated.

Should have read ...... The defense ranked 12th in least points surrendered.

 

[Crizilla]

I was about to make a thread about this. I knew just by watching the team this year that it had to be one of the worst Time of Possession teams in franchise history. Really really bad. It might have been one of the worst in NFL history.

 

[Jville]

The defense ranked 12th in points surrendered ----- was incorrectly stated.

Should have read ...... The defense ranked 12th in least points surrendered.

 

[John63]

The defense ranked 12th in points surrendered ----- was incorrectly stated.

Should have read ...... The defense ranked 12th in least points surrendered.

LOl I can't speak for everyone but I got what you meant.

 

[DarkVictory23]

People like to blame the D, and there is plenty of room for criticism there, but think about it. Every first down represents another 1-2 minutes of game clock or so across the 3 plays gained, thus more TOP. Frankly, I've been pointing this out all season.

Which brings up another thing to think about, which is how much does your 3rd down efficiency depend on postive yardage gained on 1st and 2d down? 3rd and 3-5 yards to go is a lot more makeable than 3rd and 10.

:229031_shrug:

Again the defense ranks last is getting off the field that's on them. Period. They are on the field fornover 35 minutes that's on them.they give up the most drives of 5+ minutes in the NFL that's on them.

You are so obvious... our offense ranked last until the last two games in 3 and outs (I'm not sure how we finished after those games). Is that on the defense too?

I know we ended bottom half for 3rd and 4th down conversion rates on offense and top half for defense on stopping 3rd and 4th downs (I think top 5 maybe on 4th down?). Our defense was BETTER than our offense at this.

And until the Chicago/Detroit games which screwed the numbers for two different reasons (our D was sloppy in the snow against Chicago and basically the entire second half of the Detroit game was garbage time) our team was Top 10 in points given up total and points given up per drive. In other words... better than our offense on both metrics.


Our defense was a bend don't break D, that can't be denied. The average number of plays given up per drive was TERRIBLE. I think we finished as the second worst team in the league at plays per drive. Of course, our offense was LAST in plays per drive so, you know, even in the statistic that our D was worst at... our offense still was worse.


Our TOP problem is on both sides of the ball but the idea that it was primarily due to our defense is not supported by the numbers. The fact that they were on the field so much more leads to, I feel, an unfair feeling that they performed worse. They gave up more first downs so you could complain about them more whereas Russ just gave a quick three and out so you really didn't get as much time to complain about him since he just hurried right back to the bench the moment he was given the ball...

 

[John63]

People like to blame the D, and there is plenty of room for criticism there, but think about it. Every first down represents another 1-2 minutes of game clock or so across the 3 plays gained, thus more TOP. Frankly, I've been pointing this out all season.

Which brings up another thing to think about, which is how much does your 3rd down efficiency depend on postive yardage gained on 1st and 2d down? 3rd and 3-5 yards to go is a lot more makeable than 3rd and 10.

:229031_shrug:

Again the defense ranks last is getting off the field that's on them. Period. They are on the field fornover 35 minutes that's on them.they give up the most drives of 5+ minutes in the NFL that's on them.

You are so obvious... our offense ranked last until the last two games in 3 and outs (I'm not sure how we finished after those games). Is that on the defense too?

I know we ended bottom half for 3rd and 4th down conversion rates on offense and top half for defense on stopping 3rd and 4th downs (I think top 5 maybe on 4th down?). Our defense was BETTER than our offense at this.

And until the Chicago/Detroit games which screwed the numbers for two different reasons (our D was sloppy in the snow against Chicago and basically the entire second half of the Detroit game was garbage time) our team was Top 10 in points given up total and points given up per drive. In other words... better than our offense on both metrics.


Our defense was a bend don't break D, that can't be denied. The average number of plays given up per drive was TERRIBLE. I think we finished as the second worst team in the league at plays per drive. Of course, our offense was LAST in plays per drive so, you know, even in the statistic that our D was worst at... our offense still was worse.


Our TOP problem is on both sides of the ball but the idea that it was primarily due to our defense is not supported by the numbers. The fact that they were on the field so much more leads to, I feel, an unfair feeling that they performed worse. They gave up more first downs so you could complain about them more whereas Russ just gave a quick three and out so you really didn't get as much time to complain about him since he just hurried right back to the bench the moment he was given the ball...

Again what does the offense have to do with a defense that can't get off the field? Answer nothing. IF they were getting off the field in 3 minutes or less every time or even mos times but have ign to deal with the opponent getting 12+ drives a game maybe. But they are not. Also if you read the whole thread and my posts you would know that I agreed the offense plays a part and are not helping. But its real simple

If the offense does not score that's on them

If the defense can't get off the field that is on them. What can the offense do while on the sidelines to help them not give up 9+ minutes dirves that's on them it is pretty simple


You see first no one said our TOP is not on both sides in fact I and others said this. However, we were talking the defense and they are last in giving up 5+ minute drives and last in time on the filed

You want to talk offense they are really bad or prior to the last 2 games were bad on 3rd down. Now notice I did not mention any player, none I said the defense as a whole and the offense as a whole. You decided to blame Wilson. I could have blamed any LB since most of the issue is in the soft zone in the middle, I did not because it is not that simple.

Lets use an example
We lost TOP against the Cards last game
We scored 38 points
we were 67% on 3rd down
we had 2 3 adn outs(not counting the kneel down at the end)n which is awesome
each team had 10 drives (not counting kneel down)

So the issue is how come the defense could not get off the field? Example first half at this point the TOP is
6-minute sus and 1:31 they and the defense give up a 10:41 drive. That is on the defense period and that is where the TOP went bad as for the rest of the 1st half we pretty much split but for 1 10 minute drive our defense let happen.

2nd half
the TOp in the 2nd half is about even with AZ at 8:50 and us at 7:55 then at the 13:15 mark the defense again gives up a 7+ minute drive. Again on the defense.


Let's look at more game the Chicago game first half Were up 7 nothing and the TOp is 4:24 us to 1:36 them. Then what happens in an 8:27 minute drive for Chicago.

Again I agree the offense can do more, but let's get real when they give up 7+ minute drives at the point we are winning TOp that's on the defense

 

[DarkVictory23]

Again what does the offense have to do with a defense that can't get off the field? Answer nothing.

The fact that you are even asking this blows my mind. Like, if the Offense doesn't get off the field in 20 seconds, the defense doesn't GO on the field. Like, you do realize that, right?

Turning one or two 3 and outs a game into a drive that last 5 or 6 plays probably takes an entire drive for the other team off the board just due to the clock. In other words, it doesn't matter how long the 'average' drive the D gives up is if they don't have to get on the field in the first place.

Nobody said the defense doesn't give up long drives. I said they do. It's a problem. But they are BETTER at ending drives on 3rd and 4th down than our offense was on keeping them going in the same situation. And because our offense spends like, zero time on the field, our defense has to be on the field longer, leading to more exhaustion and more injuries.

In other words, the O not taking care of THEIR side of the ball hurts the D. It's not complicated.


As for why I blamed Wilson, that's simple: He's the only reason you care about this debate in the first place.

 

[John63]

Again what does the offense have to do with a defense that can't get off the field? Answer nothing.

The fact that you are even asking this blows my mind. Like, if the Offense doesn't get off the field in 20 seconds, the defense doesn't GO on the field. Like, you do realize that, right?

Turning one or two 3 and outs a game into a drive that last 5 or 6 plays probably takes an entire drive for the other team off the board just due to the clock. In other words, it doesn't matter how long the 'average' drive the D gives up is if they don't have to get on the field in the first place.

Nobody said the defense doesn't give up long drives. I said they do. It's a problem. But they are BETTER at ending drives on 3rd and 4th down than our offense was on keeping them going in the same situation. And because our offense spends like, zero time on the field, our defense has to be on the field longer, leading to more exhaustion and more injuries.

In other words, the O not taking care of THEIR side of the ball hurts the D. It's not complicated.


As for why I blamed Wilson, that's simple: He's the only reason you care about this debate in the first place.

Okay so if the first series of the game the other team uses 10 minutes that's on the offense? really In the 3 examples, I used we had near equal TOP until the defense let a long drive happen that is not on the offense.,

I you mind if the defense gives up a 10 minutes drive our offense needs to do a 10-minute drive really? And your excuse is because they are better on 3rd and 4th than the offense it's okay that is stupid.

To me everything you say is an excuse to not hold the defense accountable.

The fact they are the worst at getting off the filed
fact they spend the most time on the field
the fact they are the worst at getting off on 3rd and 4th down
Fact the give up the most 5+ minute drives


period AS I have said the offense holds some culpability as does ST and especially the coaches but the majority of that is on the defense.

 

[cymatica]

And yet they outscored their opponents 395-366. I look at these kinds of stats and can't help but write them off to being another byproduct of Pete's style. He seems to be the king when it comes to producing numbers of odd circumstance. As I recall the Hawks seem to have been in several games over the Pete era that have had ending scores never seen before in the history of the league.

That stat is also misleading. Take out the Jaguars and Lions games, 2 bottom feeders and they have a negative score differential. Against decent to good teams they plainly just sucked

 

[DarkVictory23]

Okay so if the first series of the game the other team uses 10 minutes that's on the offense? really In the 3 examples, I used we had near equal TOP until the defense let a long drive happen that is not on the offense.,

First of all: What in the world are you talking about? Who said anything about the first series?

Second of all: You cherry picked 3 games. That's nice. Maybe we can ask the league to pro-rate our 3 best games next year instead of forcing us to play all the games?

I you mind if the defense gives up a 10 minutes drive our offense needs to do a 10-minute drive really? And your excuse is because they are better on 3rd and 4th than the offense it's okay that is stupid.

I didn't say that it's ok, I said if the offense is WORSE they are WORSE. In other words, if our offense is doing everything TOP-wise worse than our defense, then THEY are more responsible.

To me everything you say is an excuse to not hold the defense accountable.

Everything you say is to not hold Russell accountable.

The fact they are the worst at getting off the filed

No, they were second or third worst, depending on whether you are going by time per drive or plays per drive. You know who was actually the worst in both categories? Our offense.

fact they spend the most time on the field

This stat is NOT independent of the offense's time on the field at which I just told you they were worse than the defense.

the fact they are the worst at getting off on 3rd and 4th down

They were NOT the worst at this. I literally gave you this stat just a few posts ago. We were top half of the league in both categories. Where do you get your numbers from?

Fact the give up the most 5+ minute drives

That's very specific and I won't argue it because I don't know, but they still weren't the worst on average time given up per drive. But our offense WAS.

period AS I have said the offense holds some culpability as does ST and especially the coaches but the majority of that is on the defense.

So even though the offense is the actual WORST in these categories and the defense is not, the majority of our TOP problems go to the D because... reasons?

And, on top of that, despite being very bad at number of plays and time given up per drive, they were good at number of points given up. Meanwhile, the offense was even WORSE at number of plays and time taken per drive but were also bad at number of points scored.

 

[John63]

Okay so if the first series of the game the other team uses 10 minutes that's on the offense? really In the 3 examples, I used we had near equal TOP until the defense let a long drive happen that is not on the offense.,

First of all: What in the world are you talking about? Who said anything about the first series?

Second of all: You cherry picked 3 games. That's nice. Maybe we can ask the league to pro-rate our 3 best games next year instead of forcing us to play all the games?

I you mind if the defense gives up a 10 minutes drive our offense needs to do a 10-minute drive really? And your excuse is because they are better on 3rd and 4th than the offense it's okay that is stupid.

I didn't say that it's ok, I said if the offense is WORSE they are WORSE. In other words, if our offense is doing everything TOP-wise worse than our defense, then THEY are more responsible.

To me everything you say is an excuse to not hold the defense accountable.

Everything you say is to not hold Russell accountable.

The fact they are the worst at getting off the filed

No, they were second or third worst, depending on whether you are going by time per drive or plays per drive. You know who was actually the worst in both categories? Our offense.

fact they spend the most time on the field

This stat is NOT independent of the offense's time on the field at which I just told you they were worse than the defense.

the fact they are the worst at getting off on 3rd and 4th down

They were NOT the worst at this. I literally gave you this stat just a few posts ago. We were top half of the league in both categories. Where do you get your numbers from?

Fact the give up the most 5+ minute drives

That's very specific and I won't argue it because I don't know, but they still weren't the worst on average time given up per drive. But our offense WAS.

period AS I have said the offense holds some culpability as does ST and especially the coaches but the majority of that is on the defense.

So even though the offense is the actual WORST in these categories and the defense is not, the majority of our TOP problems go to the D because... reasons?

And, on top of that, despite being very bad at number of plays and time given up per drive, they were good at number of points given up. Meanwhile, the offense was even WORSE at number of plays and time taken per drive but were also bad at number of points scored.

again they lead the league in most 5+ minute drives
they lead the league in mos time on the field that is on the defense period.

The rest is all excuses for the defense. so lets agree to disagree and move on.

 

[DarkVictory23]

again they lead the league in most 5+ minute drives
they lead the league in mos time on the field that is on the defense period.

The rest is all excuses for the defense. so lets agree to disagree and move on.

Do you take lessons on 'passive aggressiveness' or something? If you want to just 'agree to disagree', you don't call my post 'excuses' when you were the one who posted multiple inaccurate stats on your way out the door.

But that's cool. Agree to disagree.


EDIT: For others perusing this thread who might be interested in what the actual stats on this subject say about our team instead of just how they 'feel' about it, I just want to point this out:

If our defense was improved to AVERAGE in terms of how much time they gave up per drive, our TOP would have still been #24 in the league.

If our offense's average drive time increased to average, we would have been roughly tied with New Orleans for 14th in TOP.

In other words, even though our team was pretty darn terrible on both sides of the ball in terms of TOP, our offense was UNIQUELY terrible in this metric. In no way, shape, or form can this issue be considered 'primarily' on the defense. It simply wasn't.

 

[seabowl]

again they lead the league in most 5+ minute drives
they lead the league in mos time on the field that is on the defense period.

The rest is all excuses for the defense. so lets agree to disagree and move on.

Do you take lessons on 'passive aggressiveness' or something? If you want to just 'agree to disagree', you don't call my post 'excuses' when you were the one who posted multiple inaccurate stats on your way out the door.

But that's cool. Agree to disagree.


EDIT: For others perusing this thread who might be interested in what the actual stats on this subject say about our team instead of just how they 'feel' about it, I just want to point this out:

If our defense was improved to AVERAGE in terms of how much time they gave up per drive, our TOP would have still been #24 in the league.

If our offense's average drive time increased to average, we would have been roughly tied with New Orleans for 14th in TOP.

In other words, even though our team was pretty darn terrible on both sides of the ball in terms of TOP, our offense was UNIQUELY terrible in this metric. In no way, shape, or form can this issue be considered 'primarily' on the defense. It simply wasn't.

Spot on

 

[DarkVictory23]

Spot on

Thanks.

There was something else I was looking at for the KNJ firing thread that I thought would be relevant here for people interested in how our TOP situation was:

If our offense managed to increase their TOP to just average, that equates to the other team losing approximately 1 and a half drives per game. That equates to about a FG less scored against us simply by virtue of the other team not getting the ball as much. Where would that put our defense as a scoring D? Top 3!

"But" one might say, "Our offense is explosive! We shouldn't expect them to be average in time on drives!"

Ok, fair enough. Let's make our offense just better enough that they are tied for third from last. Reasonable, right? I mean, that's where our defense is.

Now, instead of #3, our scoring D drops all the way down to... #5.

So if our offense's TOP was simply bottom 3 instead of the absolute worst in the league, our defense becomes a top 5 scoring defense. That's how terrible our offense was in terms of going 3 and out.