Does anyone else still support Pete?

[hinton]

I'm sort of on both sides of this issue. On the one hand, I think Russell is an elite QB, and they should do everything to make things easier on him. On the other, I think Pete is one of the greatest coaches of all time, and I have zero doubt that he would be successful without Wilson.

The problem I see is the asymmetrical distribution of credit and blame. For example, I have yet to wrap my head around the logic that "Pete's conservative offense is holding Russell back," and also "Russell is the only reason Seattle is not a 4 win team." These are two mutually exclusive concepts, in my opinion. You can't think Pete is underutilizing Russ while simultaneously thinking they couldn't win with a lesser QB than Russ. It's nonsense.

A more rational approach, with symmetrical distribution, would be to acknowledge that Seattle is better with Russell than without him. The same logic then also applies to Pete. We can't assume that a new coach would be better than Pete just because it's not Pete.

Ultimately, this is a "my dad could beat your dad" situation where each side of the equation has already made up their mind and is unwilling to consider the possibility that they are wrong. In this case, all other things equal, the only reason you'd favor keeping Russ over Pete is because of age. Pete's future is less certain than Russell's. Without that consideration, their accomplishments are functionally inseparable. We cannot assume that one is better without the other because we have no evidence to support that conclusion, just opinions.

Exactly, so many people are over-reacting to the entire thing and forcing narratives without realising the contradictions.

The same people yelling "Pate is keeping the O on a leash" are the same people that yelled "how could Pete have let Bevell call a pass in the SB", you can't have it both ways.

Pete s a top-tier coach, Russ is a top-tier QB. Both need to get on the same page, quickly.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Pete is top tier in terms of regular season wins.

Maybe.

Since the SB loss, he is actually fairly poor in the playoffs.

I don't think you can use the term 'Pete is a top tier coach' anymore. He WAS a top tier coach but the weaknesses are starting to outweigh the positives now.

 

[knownone]

Pete is top tier in terms of regular season wins.

Maybe.

Since the SB loss, he is actually fairly poor in the playoffs.

I don't think you can use the term 'Pete is a top tier coach' anymore. He WAS a top tier coach but the weaknesses are starting to outweigh the positives now.

By that logic, Russell is not a top tier QB. Kind of a silly barometer, no?

 

[hinton]

Pete is top tier in terms of regular season wins.

Maybe.

Since the SB loss, he is actually fairly poor in the playoffs.

I don't think you can use the term 'Pete is a top tier coach' anymore. He WAS a top tier coach but the weaknesses are starting to outweigh the positives now.

If that's your argument against Carroll fine, but you have to be willing to apply the same to Wilson too.

Wilson hasn't played like a top tier QB in the last few seasons either, and we've had a few 'easy' playoff games against depleted teams.

 

[zchurch74]

Easy answer on this one. Nope. Just go back and listen to his post game pressers and Monday morning interviews. He is so stuck in his ways. He prefers to win close games. He is stuck on this, win in the fourth quarter” mentality. The game has passed him by a while ago.

 

[TwistedHusky]

hinton,

Your answer is why Wilson is 100% gone.

Because during the SB, when Wilson came up - people pointed this out. Surely Wilson heard this and got to thinking about his legacy. He realized that if he was ever going to be great, it would never be with Pete as his coach. Never again anyway.

Because Pete turtles up in the playoffs. And is easy to anticipate and tactically overcome.

So if Wilson does not want the legacy of being a playoff loser, and 'only was good in the playoffs with the LOB' then he has to leave Pete behind.

Now you know why this is happening.

Wilson talks about his legacy all the time. And Pete is destroying it more with each year.

 

[OrangeGravy]

hinton,

Your answer is why Wilson is 100% gone.

Because during the SB, when Wilson came up - people pointed this out. Surely Wilson heard this and got to thinking about his legacy. He realized that if he was ever going to be great, it would never be with Pete as his coach. Never again anyway.

Because Pete turtles up in the playoffs. And is easy to anticipate and tactically overcome.

So if Wilson does not want the legacy of being a playoff loser, and 'only was good in the playoffs with the LOB' then he has to leave Pete behind.

Now you know why this is happening.

Wilson talks about his legacy all the time. And Pete is destroying it more with each year.

I agree, my only counter would be why not go off and spread your wings after the first "new" contract? He knows how Pete likes to play. He could've demanded this then? Maybe he did, but I doubt it. His agent would've leaked this stuff out back then instead of the NY stuff. He probably knows this was the perfect situation for him to start his career. If he's always wanted to be the greatest ever in the football fans eyes, he had to know at some point he would probably have to be in an offense that slings it around a lot or at least had that reputation whether they actual did or not. Is Russell just now figuring all of this out? That is what confuses me and makes me think that this all really started when Mahomes was anointed the next torch bearer of the NFL QB legacy. I think that really bothers him and maybe to a lessor extent Lamar, but he's not a real threat in that conversation. Aaron came before Russ, so I don't think that eats at him much. I don't blame Russell for that. He's been short changed quite a bit in the National media compared to other QBs that haven't done what he has.
Russell has been bad in the playoffs. He's engineered some near comebacks, but he's been bad more so than good. And if he is the QB he thinks he is, why hasn't taken control on the field by audibling or vetoing plays? What's he afraid of, getting benched for Geno?

 

[hinton]

hinton,

Your answer is why Wilson is 100% gone.

Because during the SB, when Wilson came up - people pointed this out. Surely Wilson heard this and got to thinking about his legacy. He realized that if he was ever going to be great, it would never be with Pete as his coach. Never again anyway.

Because Pete turtles up in the playoffs. And is easy to anticipate and tactically overcome.

So if Wilson does not want the legacy of being a playoff loser, and 'only was good in the playoffs with the LOB' then he has to leave Pete behind.

Now you know why this is happening.

Wilson talks about his legacy all the time. And Pete is destroying it more with each year.

This would be true if Carroll hadn't given evidence that he is willing to let Russ have more control.

- In 2020 he let Russ cook.
- After the season he essentially let Russ choose the new OC.

Remember, Carroll only put the clamps on the O after Wilson become a turnover machine. If Russ wants more authority/control/whatever then he also has to earn it.

I think the Seahawks success in 2021 season and onwards will be on the shoulders of Russ and Shane Waldren - especially if JS makes some strong moves with the O-line. As long as RW/SW don't continually lose the turnover battle it looks like Carroll is handing them the keys.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I was ready to cut ties with Carroll 3 years ago. A team has to have ultimate talent for his philosophy to work and I feel he is pretty bad game day coach and is at a disadvantage to other coaches when it comes down to the X's and O's. The Hawks will never sniff another Super Bowl with Carroll as the head coach.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Remember, Carroll only put the clamps on the O after Wilson become a turnover machine. If Russ wants more authority/control/whatever then he also has to earn it.

The problem with this is that the turnovers started coming when defenses figured out the long ball with the cover 2 scheme but the game plan never changed. Schotty took the fall for it, but it was never fixed throughout the second half of the season.

 

[hinton]

Remember, Carroll only put the clamps on the O after Wilson become a turnover machine. If Russ wants more authority/control/whatever then he also has to earn it.

The problem with this is that the turnovers started coming when defenses figured out the long ball with the cover 2 scheme but the game plan never changed. Schotty took the fall for it, but it was never fixed throughout the second half of the season.

So the game plan never changed, but at the same time Carroll neutered the O? It can't be both

Ultimately it looks like Schotty either:
1. Didn't have a plan B once D's figured us out
2. Russ wouldn't or couldn't follow plan B.

The signs suggest it was point 1.

So, what would you suggest we do next? Carroll letting Schotty go and allowing Russ pick the new OC seems QB-friendly to me.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Pete has a worse win percentage in the playoffs than 15 other head coaches since 2015. Realistically he only has two wins against teams that had crippled QBs. His third win came on a missed field goal at the final minutes, this field goal was a missed 27 yard field goal at the very end of the game. By the way, Seattle hired that guy to be our kicker... No other head coach has lost as much as Carroll in the playoffs since 2015. We don't have a quality win on our resume since 2014 in the postseason.

In that time period we've had teams such as the 2015 Seahawks that ranked number 1 in DVOA. Along with this we had the 4th ranked offense overall. Our offense was number 3 in rushing yards, and our QB was a contender for MVP honors. Along with this we had the number one ranked defense in the entire NFL.

Pete Carroll is good at running a program but his philosophies are a relic of the past and his in game coaching is atrocious. His idea of an offense is a boat anchor on the neck of this team. He's exactly who we needed when we hired him, but at this point he's done all he's ever going to do as a Seahawk. Along with the things i mentioned, he lost control of his team in 2017, and now he's starting to lose control again.

It's time we thank Carroll for what he's done and moved on.

 

[keasley45]

You choose..Pete or Russ...one will go. Maybe not this offseason but probably next.

A great QB can make a mediocre coach look good.

A great coach cannot make a mediocre QB look good.

Wilson is the one you keep happy.

Franchise QBs, especially generational talent, do not come around often.

Carroll can be replaced before Wilson can be replaced.

And it’s not even close.

If Jody Allen has learned anything from Paul, she needs to step in at some point and cannot be afraid to make a franchise changing decision. If she doesn’t want too, she can hand the keys to me and I will gladly do so.

Don't know where you get that a good coach can't make a mediocre qb look good. Or for that matter, a good qb look great. That's what good coaches do. And the hawks have done it a ton, if mostly on defense.

Sometimes they are called system qbs. One that isn't necessarily successful as result of his overwhelming individual talent, but rather excels because of the position he is placed in and what he is asked to do within it.

Example? Rich Gannon was at best a stop gap journeyman until he reached Jon Gruden. For the few years toward the end if his career, gruden put him in a spot to excel and connected with him the way no one had before. The result? The guy put up beyond great numbers in a truly prolific passing attack.

Beyond that, there are the nuance of just great leadership and getting the most out of people whrn others might fail. It abiut how a player is taught, and how his physical and mental state are managed.

Recent example? Frank Reich made Carson Wentz look like the second coming. Since his departure, he's been a completely shell of himself. And it's not as though his skills have declined. Some of it is a psychological disconnect, and some of it is x's and o's. Both of which a great coach can help a good wb to overcome.

 

[nwHawk]

Yes, I support Pete.

I think Wilson talks about legacy because he has people in his ear. He still seems like a team guy, but over the past couple of years he has become more focused on his "brand." Building wealth, creating a GQ trend setting appearance and making red carpet appearances. Feels like he his focus has turned from super bowls to seeking pop star status. I get it. His wife is in that world. He wants to top of the mountain. He's entitled to do what he wants, but I have to wonder - what happened to the "whatever it takes" football guy? And how will his teammates respond when the drills and meetings start?

 

[Spin Doctor]

You choose..Pete or Russ...one will go. Maybe not this offseason but probably next.

A great QB can make a mediocre coach look good.

A great coach cannot make a mediocre QB look good.

Wilson is the one you keep happy.

Franchise QBs, especially generational talent, do not come around often.

Carroll can be replaced before Wilson can be replaced.

And it’s not even close.

If Jody Allen has learned anything from Paul, she needs to step in at some point and cannot be afraid to make a franchise changing decision. If she doesn’t want too, she can hand the keys to me and I will gladly do so.

Don't know where you get that a good coach can't make a mediocre qb look good. Or for that matter, a good qb look great. That's what good coaches do. And the hawks have done it a ton, if mostly on defense.

Sometimes they are called system qbs. One that isn't necessarily successful as result of his overwhelming individual talent, but rather excels because of the position he is placed in and what he is asked to do within it.

Example? Rich Gannon was at best a stop gap journeyman until he reached Jon Gruden. For the few years toward the end if his career, gruden put him in a spot to excel and connected with him the way no one had before. The result? The guy put up beyond great numbers in a truly prolific passing attack.

Beyond that, there are the nuance of just great leadership and getting the most out of people whrn others might fail. It abiut how a player is taught, and how his physical and mental state are managed.

Recent example? Frank Reich made Carson Wentz look like the second coming. Since his departure, he's been a completely shell of himself. And it's not as though his skills have declined. Some of it is a psychological disconnect, and some of it is x's and o's. Both of which a great coach can help a good wb to overcome.

I'd put Goff and McVay in that category as well.

 

[nwHawk]

Also, Sooper Bowl winning QB Brad Johnson had some good years, but was never touted as anything other than okay. One might compare him to Kirk Cousins. Brad was another John Gruden coached up dude.

 

[jammerhawk]

Reading this board it feels like I am one of the only ones who is still standing by Pete. Is there anyone else who doesn't want him gone? He's given us the best stretch of football in the history of this franchise. People are acting like he can't win without Russ. I mean this without any disrespect to Russ, but we won the SB well before he was in HoF form. Russ in no way carried Pete to that SB. We have steadily been winning more games each of the last four seasons: 9, 10, 11, and then 12 this year. Just because we haven't had the post season results doesn't mean it's time to get rid of Pete.

Anyway, whether people like it or not I am afraid they will have to get used to Pete for at least another year. Jody Allen is not going to get rid of him and he basically runs the organization at this point.

I am completely with you and suspect many here don't remember how much the team sucked at times before Pete got here. It is well worth observing that we all should be careful for what we wish for as that may result in a very unfortunate bad outcome. Looking back at the history of the team since inception and I have been a fan that long this period of Pete ball is the best in the history of the team. The time will come when it will be time for Pete to go but it sure isn't now or close to yet in my view.

There is no way I buy all this 'Pete Ball' negativity and the allegation that he isn't tuned into to winning in a modern NFL. Tthe team only won 12-games this last season and their division which is the toughest division in the NFL at present. Pete is the winningest coach the team has ever had and has taken the team to the playoffs more often than any other coach the team has ever had. I do as well believe he is not without fault but is quick to attempt to fix areas where he is weak and even if others don't think so. The owner and management council are far from thinking it's time to get rid of Pete.

As well I think Wilson is undoubtedly a superstar QB and the best the team has ever had. Pete has coached up Wilson and Wilson wants more and who can blame him. I truly believe this supposed dissatisfaction is being blown out of proportion to it's genuine seriousness and RW will be a Hawk for a very long time. RW got input at his request into his new OC and that appears to be a progressive choice. The Line will need to be helped as Wilson ages and will run less and that will happen too. The team doesn't have Cable here screwing up the choices any longer.

I expect this period of disenchantment will pass and we will see an interesting offseason which may bring more than few surprises.

 

[nwHawk]

As well I think Wilson is undoubtedly a superstar QB and the best the team has ever had. Pete has coached up Wilson and Wilson wants more and who can blame him. I truly believe this supposed dissatisfaction is being blown out of proportion to it's genuine seriousness... I expect this period of disenchantment will pass and we will see an interesting offseason which may bring more than few surprises.

Well stated. :irishdrinkers:

 

[hawkfan68]

Reading this board it feels like I am one of the only ones who is still standing by Pete. Is there anyone else who doesn't want him gone? He's given us the best stretch of football in the history of this franchise. People are acting like he can't win without Russ. I mean this without any disrespect to Russ, but we won the SB well before he was in HoF form. Russ in no way carried Pete to that SB. We have steadily been winning more games each of the last four seasons: 9, 10, 11, and then 12 this year. Just because we haven't had the post season results doesn't mean it's time to get rid of Pete.

Anyway, whether people like it or not I am afraid they will have to get used to Pete for at least another year. Jody Allen is not going to get rid of him and he basically runs the organization at this point.

Good points but prior to Russ, Pete's teams were 7-9 both seasons. Pete didn't have a winning team until Russ took over as Seahawk QB. If JS hadn't drafted Wilson (or convinced PC to agree to draft Wilson), then probably would have been mediocre with Flynn/T. Jackson at QB.

 

[Welshers]

Reading this board it feels like I am one of the only ones who is still standing by Pete. Is there anyone else who doesn't want him gone? He's given us the best stretch of football in the history of this franchise. People are acting like he can't win without Russ. I mean this without any disrespect to Russ, but we won the SB well before he was in HoF form. Russ in no way carried Pete to that SB. We have steadily been winning more games each of the last four seasons: 9, 10, 11, and then 12 this year. Just because we haven't had the post season results doesn't mean it's time to get rid of Pete.

Anyway, whether people like it or not I am afraid they will have to get used to Pete for at least another year. Jody Allen is not going to get rid of him and he basically runs the organization at this point.

Good points but prior to Russ, Pete's teams were 7-9 both seasons. Pete didn't have a winning team until Russ took over as Seahawk QB. If JS hadn't drafted Wilson (or convinced PC to agree to draft Wilson), then probably would have been mediocre with Flynn/T. Jackson at QB.

Pete was building the team those first two seasons. Are you saying the D was as good in those seasons as the SB season? Don't forget we beat the defending champ Saints, with the famous Beast Mode run in the playoffs, with Hasselback at QB. Great moment! I'm not saying Russ is terrible at all, he is a HoF guy no doubt about it. But the idea that he carried Carroll to a SB is overblown. The D and running game on that team made more of an impact then RW did. Things are very different now.