Denver defense - Overhyped

[brimsalabim]

John Fox is a very good coach. I have no doubt that he will have his Defense ready for what he has seen on tape.

 

[Tempest_Crow]

You know I stayed up until 3:30 am last night reading this post. Every word. All the stats, all the back and forth. I am taking a break from my physics home work just to see whats up and this is at the top again. I cringed. But my OCD kicked in and had to see what else was said. Not much and to be honest the whole thread was one big mis-understanding on a lot of levels. The media has hyped one player on Denvers D. The Pot Roast guy. The run D seems stout. Shut down Lagarrette Blount. But in all actuality he had one or two spectacular games, but still worth the mention. Hey they're the media anything to stir the pot. Marshwawn's done well for the year even on the road. Don't care who's D is ranked what, game was played and he produced. That's what makes ML part of the elite backs. His yards after contact and production. He's not ADP, but he's dang near as productive. Our Oline has been suspect all year. Injuries? Sure who hasn't but RW has made some pretty good lemonade with those lemons, and they've done well enough against some tough fronts to still produce for ML.

Our D has had some bad games too. Indy, was a recall of Atlanta in my eyes. But hey Indy beat Denver too. Is Indy better than Denver or Seattle? For one game they were but not overall. Both sides will agree on that. Am I wrong?

From all the DVOA (EIEIO's) that were put up in the thread I came to one conclusion. Because the Offensive production of our opponents for the year was maybe less then stellar our number one D may not be the almighty. And conversely because the lack Defensive performance from Denvers schedule their offense may not be so vaunted. All in all it says the same thing we all Know. The number one Defense (by stats) is going against the number one offense (by stats).

That's all. Nothing more. Trust me I can manipulate just about any number to represent whatever I want but that's not what everyone I think was originally taking about. Most don't think its gonna be a blow out from either side. Seen that posted by both sides on this post. Our D will have its hands full. 5 really good receivers from a prolific passer. Although we have something most other D's Denver's opponents never had. 5 people that can match up. A D that does not rely on sacks for its effectiveness. Pressure, yes. Sacks no. Sacks are gravy not the meat and potato's. But the reason Payton is not sacked so much isn't so much that his o line is awesome (which its still pretty good) but that he does not hold onto the ball that long. One reason I thought Warren Moon was so effective for us in his later years. His three step drop is phenominal.

I cant wait to see this match up. No one has talked about RW and our O. Maybe they thinks its not worth mentioning. Hope so. Hope every one ignores them all. Then turn around and see 27-21 Seahawks. Or something to that effect

 

[themunn]

I don't need to defense their standings. They are what they are. 5th ranked scoring defense. People can nit pick stats all they want, and try to make them seem more or less important, but you know what they say about opinions

The Dolphins finished 8th in scoring defense.
The Colts finished 9th in scoring defense.

The colts and chiefs combined for 89 points in a single game.

You say Seattle has a "legendary" strength, but they were barely the best defense this year. They allowed .8 less points per game than the #2 defense. They aren't in the discussion for all time best defense. Denver, on the other hand, scored over 10 more points per game than the #2 offense. Denver is easily in the discussion for best offense of all time. Denver's offense is better than Seattle's defense. One is an all time great, the other is barely the best this year.

"Barely the best" shows exactly how little knowledge you have.
.8 less points per game than 2nd place
28 YPG less than 2nd place
0.3 Yards per play less than 2nd place
3 turnovers more than 2nd place

That is, first place in every single metric used to determine the best defense.
There's no "barely" about it.

 

[CallMeADawg]

I don't need to defense their standings. They are what they are. 5th ranked scoring defense. People can nit pick stats all they want, and try to make them seem more or less important, but you know what they say about opinions

The Dolphins finished 8th in scoring defense.
The Colts finished 9th in scoring defense.

The colts and chiefs combined for 89 points in a single game.

You say Seattle has a "legendary" strength, but they were barely the best defense this year. They allowed .8 less points per game than the #2 defense. They aren't in the discussion for all time best defense. Denver, on the other hand, scored over 10 more points per game than the #2 offense. Denver is easily in the discussion for best offense of all time. Denver's offense is better than Seattle's defense. One is an all time great, the other is barely the best this year.

"Barely the best" shows exactly how little knowledge you have.
.8 less points per game than 2nd place
28 YPG less than 2nd place
0.3 Yards per play less than 2nd place
3 turnovers more than 2nd place

That is, first place in every single metric used to determine the best defense.
There's no "barely" about it.

Ive tried to find good Bronco fans to talk to about the upcoming game, and failed to do so. So, I am just keeping my game chat with Bronco fans limited to a few friends I have in Denver. They are totally reasonable and give credit to Seattle, and in fact are scared out of their minds for Sunday.

 

[Eldorado]

I don't need to defense their standings. They are what they are. 5th ranked scoring defense. People can nit pick stats all they want, and try to make them seem more or less important, but you know what they say about opinions

The Dolphins finished 8th in scoring defense.
The Colts finished 9th in scoring defense.

The colts and chiefs combined for 89 points in a single game.

You say Seattle has a "legendary" strength, but they were barely the best defense this year. They allowed .8 less points per game than the #2 defense. They aren't in the discussion for all time best defense. Denver, on the other hand, scored over 10 more points per game than the #2 offense. Denver is easily in the discussion for best offense of all time. Denver's offense is better than Seattle's defense. One is an all time great, the other is barely the best this year.

"Barely the best" shows exactly how little knowledge you have.
.8 less points per game than 2nd place
28 YPG less than 2nd place
0.3 Yards per play less than 2nd place
3 turnovers more than 2nd place

That is, first place in every single metric used to determine the best defense.
There's no "barely" about it.

Ive tried to find good Bronco fans to talk to about the upcoming game, and failed to do so. So, I am just keeping my game chat with Bronco fans limited to a few friends I have in Denver. They are totally reasonable and give credit to Seattle, and in fact are scared out of their minds for Sunday.

I feel the same way. I've literally got guys on this board claiming that Percy Harvin is a better receiver than Dameryius Thomas. So me and you. Lets talk. I say the single most important match up is the Broncos interior OL vs your DT's. Give Peyton time with these weapons and he'll carve anyone up. Collapse the pocket and make him move sideways? Uh oh.

 

[loafoftatupu]

I just can't help but avoid the simple numbers.

I have heard just about every stat in the world putting Denver on some sort of pedestal of awesomeness. Apparently the Broncos are totally unstoppable. There is some jackhole on Fox radio that has been claiming that the score is going to be 37-23 Denver and that he is being generous in giving Seattle 23.

If Denver only put up 24 and 26 points respectively against teams like San Diego and the Pats, just how in the name of Hades are they going to put up MORE than that against Seattle?

If Seattle can score 23 points against both SF and NOLA, both ranked 6th and 4th respectively, in what world is Denver going to going to keep them from scoring more? If Marshawn Lynch can put up over a 100 yards in 2 games against defenses that are ranked high against the run, what gives any Broncos fan the confidence to think that he isn't going to have a record day in the Super Bowl?

How is Denver going to own Time of Possession when Seattle can run the ball? Denver won't be able to stop Lynch in a game like this. Not even a chance.

 

[sutz]

I just can't help but avoid the simple numbers.

I have heard just about every stat in the world putting Denver on some sort of pedestal of awesomeness. Apparently the Broncos are totally unstoppable. There is some jackhole on Fox radio that has been claiming that the score is going to be 37-23 Denver and that he is being generous in giving Seattle 23.

If Denver only put up 24 and 26 points respectively against teams like San Diego and the Pats, just how in the name of Hades are they going to put up MORE than that against Seattle?

If Seattle can score 23 points against both SF and NOLA, both ranked 6th and 4th respectively, in what world is Denver going to going to keep them from scoring more? If Marshawn Lynch can put up over a 100 yards in 2 games against defenses that are ranked high against the run, what gives any Broncos fan the confidence to think that he isn't going to have a record day in the Super Bowl?

How is Denver going to own Time of Possession when Seattle can run the ball? Denver won't be able to stop Lynch in a game like this. Not even a chance.

Like I've said elsewhere: We only have to outscore Manning playing against their defense, he has to outscore us against ours.

 

[Polaris]

I feel the same way. I've literally got guys on this board claiming that Percy Harvin is a better receiver than Dameryius Thomas. So me and you. Lets talk. I say the single most important match up is the Broncos interior OL vs your DT's. Give Peyton time with these weapons and he'll carve anyone up. Collapse the pocket and make him move sideways? Uh oh.

Oh no you don't. No one is claiming that Percy is a better receiver than DT. What I said was that I would be very doubtful that Pete (or Schneider) would do a 1 for 1 trade between Harvin and DT. That's a very different thing. I explained why I thought it would be doubtful too.

 

[Papa-pwn]

I don't need to defense their standings. They are what they are. 5th ranked scoring defense. People can nit pick stats all they want, and try to make them seem more or less important, but you know what they say about opinions

The Dolphins finished 8th in scoring defense.
The Colts finished 9th in scoring defense.

The colts and chiefs combined for 89 points in a single game.

You say Seattle has a "legendary" strength, but they were barely the best defense this year. They allowed .8 less points per game than the #2 defense. They aren't in the discussion for all time best defense. Denver, on the other hand, scored over 10 more points per game than the #2 offense. Denver is easily in the discussion for best offense of all time. Denver's offense is better than Seattle's defense. One is an all time great, the other is barely the best this year.

"Barely the best" shows exactly how little knowledge you have.
.8 less points per game than 2nd place
28 YPG less than 2nd place
0.3 Yards per play less than 2nd place
3 turnovers more than 2nd place

That is, first place in every single metric used to determine the best defense.
There's no "barely" about it.

That is my point. Yes, they are the best, but not by large margins in any stat.

 

[Papa-pwn]

I feel the same way. I've literally got guys on this board claiming that Percy Harvin is a better receiver than Dameryius Thomas. So me and you. Lets talk. I say the single most important match up is the Broncos interior OL vs your DT's. Give Peyton time with these weapons and he'll carve anyone up. Collapse the pocket and make him move sideways? Uh oh.

Oh no you don't. No one is claiming that Percy is a better receiver than DT. What I said was that I would be very doubtful that Pete (or Schneider) would do a 1 for 1 trade between Harvin and DT. That's a very different thing. I explained why I thought it would be doubtful too.

Makes sense. If you have a talented young receiver who keeps out of trouble, you don't trade them for another.

There are several receivers that I consider better than DT, but that doesn't mean I would trade him for one of them. I haven't seen your reasoning, but I understand your point.

 

[Papa-pwn]

I don't need to defense their standings. They are what they are. 5th ranked scoring defense. People can nit pick stats all they want, and try to make them seem more or less important, but you know what they say about opinions

The Dolphins finished 8th in scoring defense.
The Colts finished 9th in scoring defense.

The colts and chiefs combined for 89 points in a single game.

You say Seattle has a "legendary" strength, but they were barely the best defense this year. They allowed .8 less points per game than the #2 defense. They aren't in the discussion for all time best defense. Denver, on the other hand, scored over 10 more points per game than the #2 offense. Denver is easily in the discussion for best offense of all time. Denver's offense is better than Seattle's defense. One is an all time great, the other is barely the best this year.

"Barely the best" shows exactly how little knowledge you have.
.8 less points per game than 2nd place
28 YPG less than 2nd place
0.3 Yards per play less than 2nd place
3 turnovers more than 2nd place

That is, first place in every single metric used to determine the best defense.
There's no "barely" about it.

Ive tried to find good Bronco fans to talk to about the upcoming game, and failed to do so. So, I am just keeping my game chat with Bronco fans limited to a few friends I have in Denver. They are totally reasonable and give credit to Seattle, and in fact are scared out of their minds for Sunday.

Every Denver fan I know gives Seattle credit. In contrast, very few Seattle fans give Denver credit, at least on here.

Being "scared out of their minds" doesn't make your friends any more reasonable than someone, like I, who thinks Denver will win.

 

[Polaris]

I feel the same way. I've literally got guys on this board claiming that Percy Harvin is a better receiver than Dameryius Thomas. So me and you. Lets talk. I say the single most important match up is the Broncos interior OL vs your DT's. Give Peyton time with these weapons and he'll carve anyone up. Collapse the pocket and make him move sideways? Uh oh.

Oh no you don't. No one is claiming that Percy is a better receiver than DT. What I said was that I would be very doubtful that Pete (or Schneider) would do a 1 for 1 trade between Harvin and DT. That's a very different thing. I explained why I thought it would be doubtful too.

Makes sense. If you have a talented young receiver who keeps out of trouble, you don't trade them for another.

There are several receivers that I consider better than DT, but that doesn't mean I would trade him for one of them. I haven't seen your reasoning, but I understand your point.

My argument (IMHO mischaracterized by El Dorado) can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87448&start=100#top

There are a few prior posts that lead up to that post. I don't diminish DT's skills. I merely question that trading for him even in a hypothetical 1 for 1 with Harvin would be wise or even probable given matchup and other team considerations.

 

[Polaris]

Every Denver fan I know gives Seattle credit. In contrast, very few Seattle fans give Denver credit, at least on here.

Russell Wilson is just a glorified "Tim Tebow"?

Seattle's secondary is just "OK"?

Sound familiar? These were made not just by some anonymous Bronco fans but by your own sports media for public consumption.

Don't talk do me about Denver fans giving Seattle any credit. By and large they don't.

The thing is at least around here (and it certainly applies to me), we're willing to give you that Denver is the best in the AFC and has the best offense, and Peyton Manning really is all that. We give you that.

However, Seattle's defense really DOES deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with the 2000 Ravens and 1985 Bears. In fact no defense has been as dominent (at least statistically) in an NFL season since the 1985 Bears which is impressive considering how the rules favor offense. Going by defensive DVOA, this defense is BETTER than the 2000 Ravens and nearly on par with the 2003 Bucs.

However, it seems to us (at least to me) that Denver just doesn't have a clue as to what they are about to run into. Your QB, Peyton Manning does! He made a point of saying so tonight.

 

[CallMeADawg]

I feel the same way. I've literally got guys on this board claiming that Percy Harvin is a better receiver than Dameryius Thomas. So me and you. Lets talk. I say the single most important match up is the Broncos interior OL vs your DT's. Give Peyton time with these weapons and he'll carve anyone up. Collapse the pocket and make him move sideways? Uh oh.

Oh no you don't. No one is claiming that Percy is a better receiver than DT. What I said was that I would be very doubtful that Pete (or Schneider) would do a 1 for 1 trade between Harvin and DT. That's a very different thing. I explained why I thought it would be doubtful too.

I don't think anyone would make that claim. They are not even the same type of player. I think we would prefer to draft a receiver that fits the mold of what we want to accomplish here in Seattle versus worrying about trades. The Percy trade makes a lot of sense given how he plays the game. I really do not want to open up a can-o-worms on this though, as the thread will rathole.

I think there are a few key matchups:

For Seattle:
1. How do Bennett and Avril manage to get pressure and create opportunities? These two guys are brutal, kings of the strip sack and great pressure, and if you ask me are playing on a string it seems since the New Orleans regular season game.
2. How do we leverage Percy to open up opportunities for Marshawn. The best plan against Manning (other that to get legit pressure) is to keep him on the sidelines! Seattle's O was a complete juggernaut in the NO playoff game with #11 on the field. The ball moved at will, and within the typical Seattle plan of points and clock control.
3. How can Seattle create opportunities for Russell Wilson to shred Denver with his legs?
4. How will our O-line match up in the second level, Denver is not running guys like NaVarro Bowman and Patrick Willis back there. Big opportunities for Marshawn exist here, if we can dial it up right. I see Jumbo packages making mismatches in Denver's blocking and tackling. (looking at you Alvin Bailey!)

For Denver:
1. How does Denver match up against the highly physical Seattle D for 4 quarters of football? They are the kind that would punch you in the mouth, take your lunch money, kick you in the nuts while you are down, and a post a video of it to your mother's Facebook. That's just mean.
2. How can Denver hold up in the secondary against Harvin, Baldwin, Kearse, and Tate. All this talk about Denver's weapons is over-shadowing the fact that their Defense is so depleted that Champ Bailey (a guy that played in a grand total of 5 regular season games) is playing in the Super Bowl. I get his Hall of Fame creds from the past and do not deny them at all, but the dude is old and surrounded by players that lack time for cohesion - at least to the degree of other defenses in the league that Wilson has been able to burn *when it counts* (see: SF).
3. How can Seattle cover your weapons, when we have seen the secondary whiff against short passing games. (Minus the screen, Denver will look bad if they try screens) Especially when Manning gets the ball out in ~2 seconds.
4. Can Denver establish any sense of a running game. If they want to control the clock, they will need to do this. There are a lot of threats to cover up, but can Seattle manage to stop Manning and Ball/Moreno?

Edit: I would like to add that I believe both Seattle and San Francisco present insurmountable challenges for Denver and that either of the teams that could have won the NFC Championship would defeat Denver in the Super Bowl. Ball control, physicality, and the nature of football being 4 quarters long will leave Denver in a bad position in the second half, and more so in the 4th quarter, defensively. Teams designed in the way SF and Seattle are built will wear your defense down. That is the #1 name of the game with either squad. If Denver had all of their weapons defensively, that are on the IR - I would be very afraid about Sunday. They don't, thus I am not.

Just my two cents though.

Every Denver fan I know gives Seattle credit. In contrast, very few Seattle fans give Denver credit, at least on here.

Being "scared out of their minds" doesn't make your friends any more reasonable than someone, like I, who thinks Denver will win.

Then you need to go read your own boards. It is a complete joke, and a place that is impossible to have conversations with people about. They would prefer to call Russell Wilson a slightly better Tim Tebow, talk about PED usage (Denver has no room to talk there being the #2 offender at 4 with us #1 with 5, and even took in a dude we traded to you that was a PED violator), and make claims that Seattle's defense is over-rated. With nothing more to back up their arguments with than being homers and DB's. Those forums are worse than the 49ers webzone, and that is really saying something.

You should think Denver will win. You are a fan of theirs. I hope you have built that opinion based on something other than "PEYTON MANNING" because I can most certainly tell you that there are 46 active players and you will need each and every one of them to play lights out (especially your defense) to play 4 quarters with Seattle and win.

 

[SalishHawkFan]

Denver fans will leave this game saying it was the turnovers, dropped balls and missed opportunities that cost them. They'll swear that had that gone differently, they would have won and are, in fact, the better team.

 

[CallMeADawg]

Denver fans will leave this game saying it was the turnovers, dropped balls and missed opportunities that cost them. They'll swear that had that gone differently, they would have won and are, in fact, the better team.

Well of course, everyone says that about Seattle and our pedestrian receivers, over-rated quarterback, running back that apparently sucks, etc. etc. etc.

Yet we are 15-3 and beat the only other team that was actually good in the NFL, in the playoffs already.

 

[DtownNative]

Concerns about the defense from a Denver fan.

Denver's defense was porous all season, especially our secondary. Part of the reason we lost to San Diego in Week 15 was not being able to stop sorry Ryan Matthews who accounted for 127/177 yds rushing and getting off the field on 3rd down. I also think all the media hype surrounding the defense is skewed from the patriots game whose O line played a terrible game. So while Denver's D has played much better in the playoffs I still have many concerns as a total unit. Current turnover ratio -2 ~ no turnovers in the playoffs.

 

[Largent80]

Good luck trying to stop Marshawn Lynch.