Are we being unfair to our young talent?

[RiverDog]

Carson was and remains an injury risk. Drafting an RB was not a bad idea given some past years where we've had street FA's carrying the rock.

The problem may be that Penny isn't as good as his stats and may not be a wise choice in retrospect. He has elite athleticism, but running still comes down to vision. Rawls had trouble figuring the whole patience and vision thing. Hope Penny doesn't follow that same path.

Time will tell. Lynch wasn't all that for a number of seasons until it finally clicked for him. Sometimes it takes a bit of time.

Good post, and I completely agree.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Carson was and remains an injury risk. Drafting an RB was not a bad idea given some past years where we've had street FA's carrying the rock.

The problem may be that Penny isn't as good as his stats and may not be a wise choice in retrospect. He has elite athleticism, but running still comes down to vision. Rawls had trouble figuring the whole patience and vision thing. Hope Penny doesn't follow that same path.

Time will tell. Lynch wasn't all that for a number of seasons until it finally clicked for him. Sometimes it takes a bit of time.

Penny needs a hole, Lynch and Carson didn't, and do not. That's really the difference.

The good news is with this O-line Penny should get his holes to do some serious damage when he's in the game. Just not sure how often he'll be in the game.

It's a good problem to have, and I'm still glad we drafted Penny because I'm still nervous about Carson's durability with his injury history and running style always seeking contact.

 

[Yxes1122]

The issue with Penny is that he's an outside runner drafted ahead of Nick Chubb, Kerryon Johnson and Sony Michel.

Quill is fine but has shown little to no improvement since his rookie year and plays in a system where corner play is critical. Matty Brown is a good follow if you want to see breakdowns of Seattle's secondary. The long catch by Thielen was a result of poor press.

Most of the talk about Flowers this offseason feels positive and I'm excited to see him this season.

Tedric Thompson is the result of poor safety depth. Soft, slow, conservative player that won't be starting next season and, hopefully, by midseason. Blair/Hill need to stay healthy if this secondary is going to improve.

Quem is a non-story at this point and will probably end up on IR or cut. He's probably battling it out with BBK as the 7th best LB on the roster. Not trying to be hard on him, just don't think he's all that relevant at this point. Good story but I've seen nothing to indicate future starter.

It's not that these players are bad, it's that none of them look like cornerstone talent you want to build around. Poona looks like cornerstone talent. Carson looks like cornerstone talent. Lockett is cornerstone talent. Tre Flowers looks to be developing into cornerstone talent. The others? They seem like players that can be (and should be) upgraded. Either through development or replacement.

 

[McGruff]

I don't think we can say for certain What kind of runner Penny is off of his limited sample size.

 

[jammerhawk]

Agree it's still early to say with this RB but he appears to be a runner who needs a crease or functions better running to the outside. I wonder if he still is having problems seeing creases to run through?

 

[Popeyejones]

Not a Hawks fan obviously, but I'm unimpressed by Penny because of what I've actually seen on the field. Of all the positions in the NFL save for punter and kicker, I also think RB isn't really a position in which NFL players "develop" -- if you've got it, you've already got it.

The only RBs I can think of who took big leaps in their careers (Marshall Faulk and Priest Holmes) didn't "develop", they both just went from really bad to really good scheme fits after changing teams.

Shaquem Griffin was just overhyped (and IMO overdrafted) -- plenty of people had him pegged as a lifelong special teams contributor, which would be a perfectly fine career for him, and there's a lot of those guys who have long careers. Maybe he ends up being more than that, but expecting more than that was always a mistake, IMO.

Shaquill Griffin gets grief because from his first year to his second year his play regressed. If he had never shown the potential to be a #1 CB people wouldn't criticize him for maybe not being that. It's the same deal with 9ers fans and Akhello Witherspoon -- they hate the guy for not being what they entirely iimagined he was supposed to become.

 

[McGruff]

How is 5th round pick for a lifetime special teamer overdrafted?

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Tical21]

How does a guy that averages like 5 YPC become considered a bust?

 

[TwistedHusky]

Part of this is just the reputation Carroll has as being a savant in recognizing amazing defensive talent and developing it.

Specifically with regard to CBs and LBs.

My suspicions are that if we had a 'CB whisperer', he is the guy we lost to Dallas. (Kris Richard)

But LBs and CBs are automatically projected to greatness the moment they hit the roster because of this weird mythology spun around Carroll that stems primarily from that amazing 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 draft run that probably is more the result of Scott McLoughan than any sort of CB whisperer thing.

We still believe that any raw unheralded talent is projected to be an all-pro under Carroll's deft hands. The more raw, the wilder the expectations. So here we are.

Griffin is ok considering what we paid to get him. Expecting him to be great and still getting him in the 3rd round, at a time that EVERYONE wants a great corner makes no sense. He is a serviceable #2. #1s go in the 1st round or you might get lucky with later rounds getting someone raw, but the odds are against you.

Shaquem is a later days pick that should be a good special teamer but also can be used as a pass rusher. He wasn't going to displace Bobby or KJ.

We had a few years where our 3rd, 4th, and 5th round picks routinely turned into all-pros. But that was under a different staff and we haven't repeated that lucky series of dice rolls since. Continually expecting it to repeat again makes no sense.

 

[Scorpion05]

Not a Hawks fan obviously, but I'm unimpressed by Penny because of what I've actually seen on the field. Of all the positions in the NFL save for punter and kicker, I also think RB isn't really a position in which NFL players "develop" -- if you've got it, you've already got it.

The only RBs I can think of who took big leaps in their careers (Marshall Faulk and Priest Holmes) didn't "develop", they both just went from really bad to really good scheme fits after changing teams.

Shaquem Griffin was just overhyped (and IMO overdrafted) -- plenty of people had him pegged as a lifelong special teams contributor, which would be a perfectly fine career for him, and there's a lot of those guys who have long careers. Maybe he ends up being more than that, but expecting more than that was always a mistake, IMO.

Shaquill Griffin gets grief because from his first year to his second year his play regressed. If he had never shown the potential to be a #1 CB people wouldn't criticize him for maybe not being that. It's the same deal with 9ers fans and Akhello Witherspoon -- they hate the guy for not being what they entirely iimagined he was supposed to become.

Lol wait what?

RB is a position that can develop like any position. If it wasn't, then late round or undrafted picks would never flourish into top 5 running backs.

In the NFL, it's as much about the opportunities you get, as it is your skillset. How well would Jerome Bettis do in a pass happy offense, for example? Where he's asked to run routes and catch deep balls down field?

I can also provide a few examples of RBs who didn't truly break out until they got the reps, or who took a few years to evolve. Ahman Green, Brian Westbrook, and Derrick Henry comes to mind.


Shaquem Griffin was never "overhyped." There's a difference between arguing a player was overrated, and that a player got extensive media coverage. And he deserved it, to make it this far given his limitations IS impressive. In reality, the only thing Shaquem is missing is the mental knowledge and instincts. He has the motor and athleticism otherwise.

Shaquill went from a number 2 to a number 1. That's tough for any 2nd year player. That isn't exactly "regression," that's logical. Shaquill has had some really good performances, and has played mostly at a B+ level. Which isn't out of the ordinary for most corners. Are you sure you actually watch our games?

 

[Scorpion05]

Tonight further highlighted Pete's philosophy. At the end of the day, Pete & John REALLY believe in developing talent


It's why we've kept Prosise, despite him being Mr. Glass. Because he was a 3rd round investment, and is very talented.

It's why we'll likely keep Jennings, despite not seeing much of him in the preseason.

It's why we'll likely keep Shaquem.

And we're not giving up on Penny, or Shaquill, because they've all shown that they can be really good to great in this league. Tonight was another exhibit of that.

We're not gonna get a lot of credit for our drafts, but when you can get B to A- production from your YOUNGEST talent, that's an absolute win. Most teams would dream for that.

 

[WestcoastSteve]

They kept Procise because he had a rookie contract.

They might keep Jennings but they might Chris Harper/Kevin Norwood him too.

I would be shocked if they kept Shaquem, BBK and Barton are younger, Calitro is pretty young too.

Shaquill has shown he can be good to great in this league? When?

 

[WestcoastSteve]

. Shaquill has had some really good performances, and has played mostly at a B+ level. Which isn't out of the ordinary for most corners. Are you sure you actually watch our games?

We talking about the same guy, he gave himself a D- and Pro Football Focus ranked him one of the worst corners in the NFL. He was probably a B- his rookie year but I don't get where he's even been a B+

 

[Scorpion05]

Shaquill’s issue has been consistency. He’s had piss poor games that skew the numbers against him, and he’s had some really solid games in between. Our defense in general got burned last year, and cleaned some things up as the season grew on

 

[Jville]

Some of us are unfair to the young talent. Others are patient with an eye toward enjoying their development and evolution.

There are a couple of 3rd year players who went thru obvious sophomore slumps in 2018. Shaquill Griffin & Ethan Pocic are two from that class that appear to me to be bouncing back for 2019. I like what I'm seeing. Last night, Griffin looked like he was playing with confidence and Pocic was burying guys.

I enjoyed last night. :2thumbs:

 

[pehawk]

Some of us are unfair to the young talent. Others are patient with an eye toward enjoying their development and evolution.

There are a couple of 3rd year players who went thru obvious sophomore slumps in 2018. Shaquill Griffin & Ethan Pocic are two from that class that appear to me to be bouncing back for 2019. I like what I'm seeing. Last night, Griffin looked like he was playing with confidence and Pocic was burying guys.

I enjoyed last night. :2thumbs:

Pocic has played steady and solid all preseason. Him having a nasty finish last night was an exclamation point.

 

[Scorpion05]

Also let's not forget Ifedi. He'll still have his boneheaded moments, but he's been really solid. The difference between a contender and a team who struggles every year is the ability to draft solid talent, with a few A grade players in between.

Tyler Lockett in the 3rd round example was a steal. Carson also an obvious steal. David Moore has out-produced his draft position. And our biggest stars are home grown. I think we take this front office for granted a bit. They may not have hit aces like they did from 2010-2012, but they haven't completely butchered it either.

 

[Thepeelsessions]

They might keep Jennings but they might Chris Harper/Kevin Norwood him too.

Norwood stuck around for his rookie campaign. He honestly wasn't too bad, either. He caught 9 of 10 for 102 yards that year. But I see what you're getting at. Fourth round receivers that generally never make it here.

There has been a lot of talk of Jennings following this trajectory, not just on here, but with the local media, too. People notice. I'd like to see him stay and refine his skills. I think if all of he, Jazz, and Ursua make it (which they probably should), Jennings might be the last WR on the list. No way should he get playing time over Jazz and Ursua after the camps and preseason games they've had.

 

[sc85sis]

Part of this is just the reputation Carroll has as being a savant in recognizing amazing defensive talent and developing it.

Specifically with regard to CBs and LBs.

My suspicions are that if we had a 'CB whisperer', he is the guy we lost to Dallas. (Kris Richard)

But LBs and CBs are automatically projected to greatness the moment they hit the roster because of this weird mythology spun around Carroll that stems primarily from that amazing 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 draft run that probably is more the result of Scott McLoughan than any sort of CB whisperer thing.

We still believe that any raw unheralded talent is projected to be an all-pro under Carroll's deft hands. The more raw, the wilder the expectations. So here we are.

Griffin is ok considering what we paid to get him. Expecting him to be great and still getting him in the 3rd round, at a time that EVERYONE wants a great corner makes no sense. He is a serviceable #2. #1s go in the 1st round or you might get lucky with later rounds getting someone raw, but the odds are against you.

Shaquem is a later days pick that should be a good special teamer but also can be used as a pass rusher. He wasn't going to displace Bobby or KJ.

We had a few years where our 3rd, 4th, and 5th round picks routinely turned into all-pros. But that was under a different staff and we haven't repeated that lucky series of dice rolls since. Continually expecting it to repeat again makes no sense.

No one on this site (that we are publicly aware of) actually knows how much McLoughlan impacted the first few draft classes and other personnel signings. What we do know is that Pete’s knowledge from recruiting and coaching at USC/in the P10 had a major impact those first few years.

- Mike Williams played for Pete at USC
- Golden Tate played for USC rival Notre Dame
- Walter Thurmond played at Oregon
- Anthony McCoy played for Pete at USC
- Marshawn Lynch played at Cal and had been recruited by Pete
- Doug Baldwin played at Stanford
- Mike Morgan played for Pete at USC
- Malcolm Smith played for Pete at USC
- Brandon Browner was recruited by Pete and played at Oregon State
- Richard Sherman was recruited as a CB by Pete but went to Stanford as a WR
- Bruce Irvin was recruited by Pete

 

[Scorpion05]

Tedric Thompson will probably never truly develop. But really happy with what I’m seeing now from the other guys.

Shaquem is coming into his own.

Ifedi seems to be making less mistakes

Penny is finally showing his true potential in a full game

Shaquill and Flowers are playing at a solid level